Janemba's stats

[Golden_Void]

Range: Tens of meters. Interstellar with ki blasts and attacks. | Standard melee range. Extended melee range with his sword. Interstellar with ki blasts and attacks. Galactic with reality warping.


Fat Janemba reality warped the entire universe which is very visible if you look, as well as statements from Goku saying he's affecting every dimension in creation. And this was in his fat form, yet the feat is given to his super form (who would possess the same ability), but he's given galactic range, presumably because of the whole 4 galaxy thing which STILL doesn't justify "galactic" range.

 

[LordXcano]

I don't think it's possible to visually tell someone is affecting the entire universe without a Gurren Lagann-esque super zoom out. And affecting every dimension isn't equal to affecting the whole of every dimension either.

 

[Golden_Void]

Well he affected the entire afterlife (which contains both Hell and Heaven, two universe sized realms, evidenced by the fact that 99% of the movie occured in hell, and Janemba's reality warping affected Grand Kai's planet, which is the highest realm in the afterlife), as well as the mortal universe based on what was shown.

 

[LordXcano]

Could you provide scans or a video?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, this may warrant an upgrade. However, it is uncertain if DBGT shares the same continuity as the movies, and can be scaled from this.

 

[Dark649]

In the movie heaven and hell are not universe sized realms and the earth was affected only because the deads returned from hell. Janemba never affected the universe [The dub i saw never mentioned this] and it was discussed that there are only four galaxies and the not universe sized heaven and hell in this continuity.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. However 4 galaxies still means 3-B.

 

[Dark649]

Intergalactic via reality warping seems reasonable, but Goku statement of affecting every dimension in creation is vague.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Dark649]

I have added it, now this can be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So you do not think that an upgrade is appropriate?

 

[Dark649]

No. He did not reality warped the universe, he only started to reality warp hell, which is not universe sized and Goku is not a reliable source for this upgrade. The only thing that can be guessed that its reality warping can reach to other galaxy, but not cause any enviromental damage.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Let me remind you that the animeverse includes the non-canon DBZ anime,the movies and DBGT. Even BOG and ROF are part of this now. So I think It should scale.


Evidence of this is the appearence of the Movie Villains in the Super 17 arc in GT after they were released from Hell.

 

[Dark649]

The canon and non-canon continuity are two different things, Janemba is not phisically 3-A like Beerus.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Golden_Void]

No. He did not reality warped the universe, he only started to reality warp hell, which is not universe sized and Goku is not a reliable source for this upgrade. The only thing that can be guessed that its reality warping can reach to other galaxy, but not cause any enviromental damage.

"In the movie heaven and hell are not universe sized realms" what?

Please tell me where you get this information from. Given the model of the universe you can clearly see hell is as wide as the entire universe itself. In the beginning of the movie it shows Janemba affecting every universe in the afterlife before Goku even goes down to hell to fight him. Like Julian said, this would scale to the non-canon of everything (such as Arale in Super I would assume), which later establishes that we are one of many universes as well as countless galaxies.

There's also a post on Kanzenshuu which speaks on galaxies

-Taken from Kanzenshuu -

The Afterlife ÒüéÒü«õ©û/anoyo Translation: that world, the other world, the afterlife Other Names: the Netherworld (Viz), Other World (Funi), the Next Dimension (early Funi), the next world, the world beyond

The afterlife is the world where people go when they die, and where the gods who watch over the living universe reside. Apart from the gods and the dead, the afterlife is also home to the oni, ogre-like monsters of Japanese myth. They are portrayed as the administrators of the afterlife, assisting the judge of the dead, Enma Daio (Great King Enma, aka King Yama), a figure taken from Buddhist and Hindu mythology. Daizenshuu 7 says that Mister Popo and Karin are also beings native to the afterlife, sent to Earth to assist its God. Similar assistants from the afterlife are sent to the gods of each world. In addition, Akkuman's race of devils is from the afterlife (Hell to be exact). According to Goku, time doesn't exist in the afterlife, though it's not clear just what this entails, other than that using Super Saiyan 3 there is easier.


I. Hell

Õ£░þìä/jigoku Translation: hell, the earthly prison Other Names: HFIL, the Home for Infinite Losers (Funi)

Hell is where the dead souls which Enma Daio judges to be evil are sent to. It consists of an extremely vast, rocky plain that takes up the entire lower portion of the afterlife, and is covered by the yellow clouds that surround Enma's palace and the Serpent Road.


Heave

Õñ®Õø¢/tengoku Translation: heaven, the heavenly country Other Names: the Upper World (Viz)

As you might expect, Heaven is where those who Enma Daio judges to be good are allowed to go to. It's a large planet directly above Enma's palace. To reach Heaven, one must ride a special plane that takes off from an airport near Enma's palace (this plane was part of Toriyama's drawing of the afterlife, but only appears in the anime). The place where Goku is shown training for the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai is identified in the daizenshuu as being Heaven. It's shown as a pleasant, grassy place with round buildings. The sky has odd clouds, and a moon or something is visible at one point (maybe it's Dai-Kaio's planet?). In addition to Goku and Kaio, a dead dog and squid creature are also seen here. Kaio continues to hang out here for the rest of the Boo arc, since his planet was destroyed by Cell. When Dabra dies, Enma decides to send him here, on the logic that he'd be happy to go to Hell (this is mentioned in the manga, though it's only in the anime that we actually get to see Dabra in Heaven).

In the anime, Videl, Bulma, and co. look for Gohan here after being killed by Boo. Heaven is said to be as wide as the entire universe itself, and seems to consist mostly of an immense field of flowers. Videl and the other dead people are shown as looking the same as in life from the waist upward, but with ghostly tails instead of legs, and the standard halo. Dabra is shown as now being ridiculously nice and happy now, to the point that he freaks everyone else out. In GT, Piccolo comes to Heaven after dying in the destruction of Earth, but he purposefully makes Enma send him to Hell to save Goku. Kaio also seems to still be hanging around Heaven at the start of GT (or perhaps Dai-Kaio's planet).



Also the 4 galaxies thing only applies to the mortal universe, not the entire afterlife which contains 2 universe sized realms inside of itself. At the most lowball it's 3-B like Ant said, not 3-C.

 

[Dark649]

Janemba affected them with its reality warping and not phisically, i will rewatch the movie to explain better.

 

[Dark649]

Janemba only managed to warp the Check-in Station and a part of hell, then it managed to warp as far as the Other World Tournament to Grand Kai's planet, but this was range alone, not AP. Janemba can warp and make appear thousands of little constructs and not something with a planetary size or higher, so he can't reality warp an entire galaxy or the entire universe. Most of your statements are fake specualtions.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information. Perhaps you can add an explanation about this as a footnote in Janemba's page?

 

[Golden_Void]

Your logic is because we don't see entire universes affected on the entire screen, the entire universe isn't affected. Which is the case 0.00000001% of times in fiction. I guess with that logic when it rains, since I can only see if it rains on my street, it must not be raining anywhere else. All of Janemba's jelly bean warping was seen in the space around King Yemma's place, snake way, in the empty space and even leading towards hell (which Goku leads Janemba through while luring him into hell), and like you said it reached GK's planet, passing Heaven, a universe sized planet.

And nobody is talking about the AP, I made it clear this is about his range, which his reality warping is a part of.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You can't make those kind of assumptions that it did because we didn't see it all. I, even during my current admin run, can't get away with that.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Howard and Dark649.

 

[Golden_Void]

@Cal, even during the fight in Hell, you can see jelly beans stretch endlessly throughout hell, and not only that, but all of it's inhabitants were frozen by Janemba, he even turned some of those frozen people into mini-janembas. In the voids of space in the afterlife, you see the jelly beans extend endlessly, we cannot just assume it was localized reality warping.


I could use the same logic for Zeno. When he destroys whatever he destroys, he does so on Earth, and when they came back to rescue Zeno, the range of sight was the same as a few city blocks. We haven't seen Zeno destroy all 12 universes (we can't even confirm it was 12 because Zeno destroying some of the original 18 universes was only in our timeline, but let's assume it was 12). But because he says "sekai", that means literally the whole multiverse, yet when Goku said Janemba was affecting every dimension in creation as he TRAVELED through them, suddenly Goku's statement is vague according to Dark?


I'm seeing so many levels of double standards here.

 

[Dark649]

Again these are only assumptions and speculations about the jelly beans and etc, also Goku is not that smart in non-combat as he tends to exaggerate [Goku statement is the same as Vegito about Buuhan collapsing all the dimensions] and make bad decisions.

 

[Golden_Void]

I guess Cell didn't actually shake the planet powering up his kamehameha since we didn't get a zoomed out shot of the Earth shaking, especially since we only had the Cell Games arena and one city as a reference. I guess Goku shaking the entire afterlife never happened since we only got a reference to that from Grand Kai on his own planet. I mean you do know that in the canon, Goku becoming SS3 was felt in the supreme kai's world, which sits outside of the universe? Does this mean that Goku's ki was not sensable everywhere else in the universe since it wasn't shown at every place in the universe?

This isn't speculation, its how DB works.

 

[Dark649]

Actually shaking the planet is a low-tier feat by DBZ standards and Goku shaking the afterlife was deemed as a Solar System level feat as it was discussed with Darkanine, also in the non-canon continuity there is only the afterlife/hell and four galaxies and not multiple universes, like the canon continuity. Lasty i repeat that statement and events are comparable to Vegito statement about what Buuhan was causing, which we discussed here.

 

[Golden_Void]

1. You're going off-topic again by discussing DC and not what I said, which is that the range doesn't have to be shown on a super zoomed-out scale to be true. If that was the case like I said, then Cell shaking the planet would have to be ignored since we only have two places of reference on the planet, instead of having a zoomed out shot of the Earth as you suggested.

2. But was Vegito wrong?

3. I've linked a statement saying the "galaxies" of the four cardinal directions are actually meant as "areas". How could there only be 4 galaxies, yet Earth is in the north area, and is contained inside of the milky way?

 

[Antvasima]

Please read here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11656

If I remember correctly, this is also a forbidden topic, due to how frequently it used to come up.

 

[Golden_Void]

"There's no real plural in Japanese, so "North Galaxy" could also possibly be "North Galaxies"."

Evidenced by the fact that there is a milky way galaxy in the "north galaxy"

" where North Kaio's line to the Great Elder can mean that he's either in charge of 1 galaxy or many galaxies, but not less than 1 galaxy."

I'm not seeing why its such a problem for this upgrade. Even Goku has multi-universal range via Instant transmission, something that he uses for travel from the mortal universe to the afterlife, and between universes inside of the afterlife, something he's been doing since the cell games, yet his range was stellar for YEARS.

 

[Antvasima]

We are not going to upgrade the size of the DBGT universe. We have had long discussions about this in the past, and it is even a forbidden topic at this point. As such, I would appreciate if you immediately and permanently drop the subject.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

To be honest I think it's best if this thread is closed before things turn for the worse.

 

[Antvasima]

Probably, yes.