IVE GOT ANOTHER CHILD I NEED TO MAKE INTO A CORPSE | Bill Cipher vs Sora | 2-8-0 (um grace? Idk)

[Bobsican]

Again. You are completely saying no to a quote from the profile with no reason why. It is literally saying "Heart ONLY contains MEMORIES, If MEMORIES are not there the Heart is EMPTY"

The thing is that the statement never said "only", let's look at the quotes you're focusing in particular:

• A heart is the metaphysical and abstract aspect of every existent being, being made of light and/or darkness, while also originating from aspects like memories, emotions and bonds of friendship or negative emotions

Note how as far the wiki is concerned as explained here, they aren't listed as the only thing making up a heart.

• Every being has its own heart, within which their memories are bound to.

Doesn't really pushes for hearts only being made up of memories.

• Memories are a vital component of a heart

"Vital" and "the only one" are very different things.

• "Memories are governed by the heart, but the heart is made of memories. A heart with no memories is already an empty shell."

Given the before explanations, it'd be fair to conclude this is merely talking about memories being a crucial aspect that makes up a heart (not the only one), especially considering that if we take this literally there'd be the paradox of a heart having to start somewhere as memories by nature take time to even exist.

If your verse contradicts itself it is not my problem, but giving a character complete CM 1 resistance to all aspects such as soul, mind, memory even though the game straight up comments on how it only contains memory is just unfair.

Would be valid if this was true, but it's not.

This still doesn't mean they have Unconventional Resistance.

Quirk collects Information, Memory and Soul of a person... does this mean they have Resistance to the aspects being listed? Of course no.
Giving the fact that not everyone have memories on their Hearts, and the P&A also list their Weakness on some cases such as Memory Manipulation.

Depends on the nature of the "Quirk" thing, this is a matter like a character having their mind bound to a box that requires a certain kind of Non-Physical Interaction to affect, and if the opponent lacks the NPI for that, then tough luck.

I already said earlier, Bill's Transmutation is based on his Biology Manipulation... its main-ability is, Biology, do Sora HAVE RESISTANCE to this?

I wonder how is this even matches with what we just argued.
And there's no type that being justified in the profile, and surely isn't greater or higher than standard.

It's not that simple.
You're claiming that just because an ability transmutates less of a target compared to turning them to an inanimate object the former will have more priority? See how that doesn't make sense? Yeah, that's why Sora resists, in fact the "Biological Manipulation" pushed for here is listed as a subset of Transmutation anyways, so the point for claiming it's different for those purposes is invalid.

 

[ShionAH]

bro now i am even more confused

this is why u dont argue about verses ur not a supporter of

if u havent played KH or dont have a lotta knowledge on KH stop tryna debunk stuff
or make a crt

I think the problem you have is basic math and common sense. I am going off the information I have that state Heart only contains memories.

 

[Robo432343]

The thing is that the statement never said "only", let's look at the quotes you're focusing in particular:


Note how as far the wki is concerned they aren't listed as the only thing making up a heart.


Doesn't really pushes for hearts only being made up of memories.


"Vital" and "the only one" are very different things.


Given the before explanations, it'd be fair to conclude this is merely talking about memories being a crucial aspect that makes up a heart (not the only one), especially considering that if we take this literally there'd be the paradox of a heart having to start somewhere as memories by nature take time to even exist.


Would be valid if this was true, but it's not.


Depends on the nature of the "Quirk" thing, this is a matter like a character having their mind bound to a box that requires a certain kind of Non-Physical Interaction to affect, and if the opponent lacks the NPI for that, then tough luck.


It's not that simple.
You're claiming that just because an ability transmutates less of a target compared to turning them to an inanimate object the former will have more priority? See how that doesn't make sense? Yeah, that's why Sora resists, in fact the "Biological Manipulation" pushed for here is listed as a subset of Transmutation anyways, so the point for claiming it's different for those purposes is invalid.

agree

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

this is why u dont argue about verses ur not a supporter of

if u havent played KH or dont have a lotta knowledge on KH stop tryna debunk stuff

This is illogical and surely feels like Appeal to Authority sh*t.
Just because you know something, does it make your arguments better on a discussion? Sora win then, because i'm not a supporter of KH, lol.

Even then, its all your guys fault that did not giving any information related on the page, if "unfair" came into discussion, it would side with you today, lol... and the quote about "Memories made Heart" already proving everything.

REMEMBER, WE'RE BASED ON THE INFORMATION WE'VE BEEN RECEIVED ON THE PAGE... ITS NOT ENTIERLY OUR FAULT IF YOUR VERSE GETTING DESTROYED JUST BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW THE VERSE, YOU GUYS ARE THE PEOPLE WHO RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS SH*T.

 

[ShionAH]

Given the before explanations, it'd be fair to conclude this is merely talking about memories being a crucial aspect that makes up a heart (not the only one), especially considering that if we take this literally there'd be the paradox of a heart having to start somewhere as memories by nature take time to even exist.

Again, you need to have another statement or any kind of clear comment about how the heart contains more. I have not seen anything like that other than a scene where I think the "heart" talks? but like that barely gives CM 1 Mind

This is "Heart-Memories = Empty" quote. Which is "X-Y=0" so "X = Y". Heart is Memories.

Anyways can Sora do anything before Bill snaps?

 

[Robo432343]

This is illogical and surely feels like Appeal to Authority sh*t.
Just because you know something, does it make your arguments better on a discussion? Sora win then, because i'm not a supporter of KH, lol.

Even then, its all your guys fault that did not giving any information related on the page, if "unfair" came into discussion, it would side with you today, lol... and the quote about "Memories made Heart" already proving everything.

REMEMBER, WE'RE BASED ON THE INFORMATION WE'VE BEEN RECEIVED ON THE PAGE... ITS NOT ENTIERLY OUR FAULT IF YOUR VERSE GETTING DESTROYED JUST BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW THE VERSE, YOU GUYS ARE THE PEOPLE WHO RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS SH*T.

nah bro if u dont like what u see on the profiles then make a crt

 

[Nehz_XZX]

There are several instances of characters having conversations or performing other actions while being in a state of being reduced to a heart. Hearts are also the source for emotions which would also be distinct from memories.

 

[Bobsican]

Hearts being only memories actually was a plot point in-verse that was concluded to not be the case.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Depends on the nature of the "Quirk" thing, this is a matter like a character having their mind bound to a box that requires a certain kind of Non-Physical Interaction to affect, and if the opponent lacks the NPI for that, then tough luck.

They are bounded, another example for this is:
Chakra, Cursed Energy... both of which is bound, and part of someone's existence, still doesn't mean they're Resistance entirely or even Unconventionally to being contained.

It's not that simple.
You're claiming that just because an ability transmutates less of a target compared to turning them to an inanimate object the former will have more priority?

Its still the same standard, they're not different on a types... if yes, you gotta justifies it on what types is that Transmutation should be.
Its not even Layering, or even Greater, so you gotta make a proper arguments why Sora can Resist this rather than "better transmutation" when its literally standard.

in fact the "Biological Manipulation" pushed for here is listed as a subset of Transmutation anyways, so the point for claiming it's different for those purposes is invalid.

He got Transmutation because of Biology Manipulation, you're confused.

 

[ShionAH]

"The heart appears to be responsible for the composure of memories, will, goals, and ambitions, as is the case in the transfer of Master Xehanort's heart into Terra and the internal struggle of wills inside Terra-Xehanort."

"Memories can also be used to create hearts, such as the data Vexen gathered on Riku to create the Riku Replica; Xion was also made from memories Xemnas sampled from Sora."

"Hearts can regrow entirely new bodies for themselves to inhabit as long as they have a medium to help rebuild their body and someone who has memories of them."

"though his heart was immensely strong. This lets him keep his emotions and memories instead of fading to the darkness"

There is so many quotes in the wiki clearly stating that the Memories are the main deal with the hearts, I dont know what else to say since I dont know KH but to me it seems like the profile states Memories are whats important in a Heart but now everyone is adding Mind and Counciouss to it too because otherwise Bill will win. I am also really annoyed that Robo seems to believe since we dont know KH we should just suck it and sit back as Bill gets his ass kicked, so I am just gonna drop this thread and unfollow tbh

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

nah bro if u dont like what u see on the profiles then make a crt

The thing is, i don't see it being mentioned in the page just like you guys explained.
There's nothing to be revised, you guys just brought something that is not properly explained on the page.

 

[Robo432343]

The thing is, i don't see it being mentioned in the page just like you guys explained.

because you guys dont understand the verse..
i asked all the KH people and they say heart does not just contain memories

 

[Everything12]

Based off I'm reading and know, the Heart is basically the mind/consciousness. They just focus on the memory aspect because that is more integral to the theme's and plot of the stories.

I'd say that through reading all this and my own knowledge, I'm voting for Sora being more likely to win.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

There is so many quotes in the wiki clearly stating that the Memories are the main deal with the hearts, I dont know what else to say since I dont know KH but to me it seems like the profile states Memories are whats important in a Heart but now everyone is adding Mind and Counciouss to it too because otherwise Bill will win. I am also really annoyed that Robo seems to believe since we dont know KH we should just suck it and sit back as Bill gets his ass kicked, so I am just gonna drop this thread and unfollow tbh

The mind and consciousness have been involved in other debates involving Kingdom Hearts, so that isn't specific to this thread.

 

[ShionAH]

Anyways, if its only memories I am voting Bill

If its also mind then its a stomp.

 

[Robo432343]

Sora resist transmutation anyway

cm 1 keyblade attack gg...

(Bill is Discord's son)

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

because you guys dont understand the verse..
i asked all the KH people and they say heart does not just contain memories

This is faulty and yet illogical reasoning.

Based off I'm reading and know, the Heart is basically the mind/consciousness. They just focus on the memory aspect because that is more integral to the theme's and plot of the stories.

I'd say that through reading all this and my own knowledge, I'm voting for Sora being more likely to win.

How and why exactly?
1.He didn't resist Biology Manipulation that can did Transmutation
2. AoE Energy Projections
3. Immo8? Based on Fate, Bill here can rewriting them to non-existence... just like he intended to do with every worlds, lack of everything.

 

[Bobsican]

They are bounded, another example for this is:
Chakra, Cursed Energy... both of which is bound, and part of someone's existence, still doesn't mean they're Resistance entirely or even Unconventionally to being contained.

Those things aren't incorporeal to begin with or anything, so those are poor comparisons, the matter is more so on being able to interact with the thing in question to affect it, rather than merely jumping to the affecting part.

Its still the same standard, they're not different on a types... if yes, you gotta justifies it on what types is that Transmutation should be.
Its not even Layering, or even Greater, so you gotta make a proper arguments why Sora can Resist this rather than "better transmutation" when its literally standard.

He got Transmutation because of Biology Manipulation, you're confused.

The poor English here sure makes this difficult to read, but in any case, Transmutation doesn't have types for that kind of purpose you're trying to draw a line for something that simply doesn't work like that under the current standards.

"The heart appears to be responsible for the composure of memories, will, goals, and ambitions, as is the case in the transfer of Master Xehanort's heart into Terra and the internal struggle of wills inside Terra-Xehanort."

"Memories can also be used to create hearts, such as the data Vexen gathered on Riku to create the Riku Replica; Xion was also made from memories Xemnas sampled from Sora."

"Hearts can regrow entirely new bodies for themselves to inhabit as long as they have a medium to help rebuild their body and someone who has memories of them."

"though his heart was immensely strong. This lets him keep his emotions and memories instead of fading to the darkness"

There is so many quotes in the wiki clearly stating that the Memories are the main deal with the hearts, I dont know what else to say since I dont know KH but to me it seems like the profile states Memories are whats important in a Heart but now everyone is adding Mind and Counciouss to it too because otherwise Bill will win. I am also really annoyed that Robo seems to believe since we dont know KH we should just suck it and sit back as Bill gets his ass kicked, so I am just gonna drop this thread and unfollow tbh

A main deal, sure, but not the only one, this is like claiming that lemonade is literally made of lemons rather than leaving implicit that it also includes other components such as water. Even the wiki notes that it includes other stuff besides memories, in fact the third quote given here already shows that the body is irrelevant for the identity of a character, what makes them really up is the heart.

Also reminder that Sora here has the X-Blade, so he can also similarly nuke Bill with cosmological sealing.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Sora resist transmutation anyway

Not in the case where its based on Biology Manipulation.

cm 1 keyblade attack gg...

Sora gets Time Baby treatment before he even swing, what.

 

[Robo432343]

bill doesn't even use biology manip in character in a vs match

look what he did to time baby


its different

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Those things aren't incorporeal to begin with or anything, so those are poor comparisons, the matter is more so on being able to interact with the thing in question to affect it, rather than merely jumping to the affecting part.

Where did you get this Energy is not "Incorporeal"?
Even in JJK, it is Incorporeal.
Source of its not Incorporeal???

Transmutation doesn't have types for that kind of purpose you're trying to draw a line for something that simply doesn't work like that under the current standards.

Transmutation does have a types.
And again, in this case, Sora resistance is not Layering or Greater.
Nor it can resistance to Biology.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

bill doesn't even use biology manip in character in a vs match

look what he did to time baby

Everything is not In-Character now for Bill, ah yes.

Fr tho, how is it not In-Character when he literally doing this to everyone and make a throne out of it?

 

[Robo432343]

Transmutation does have a types.

No.

Transmutation

Transmutation is the ability to alter the form of energy, beings, objects, matter, etc. to change it into something else. This ability has a variety of applications, including transmuting nearby objects into useful items or nullifying attacks by turning them into something else. More specialized...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Robo432343]

Fr tho, how is it not In-Character when he literally doing this to everyone and make a throne out of it?

i never said it is not in character DONT STRAWMAN ME RAAAH

its just that Bill in a 1v1 did not use biology transmutation on time baby

the times where he did use transmutation was to bully people, not in an actual fight

 

[Bobsican]

Where did you get this Energy is not "Incorporeal"?
Even in JJK, it is Incorporeal.
Source of its not Incorporeal???

For the Chakra stuff I don't see Incorporeality being listed, and for Cursed Energy, well, it is incorporeal, but it's just something the characters manipulate, rather than the thing being the characters themselves, and such thing being capable of existing independently of the characters' bodies.

Transmutation does have a types.
And again, in this case, Sora resistance is not Layering or Greater.
Nor it can resistance to Biology.

No types listed

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

cosmological sealing.

Sealing doesn't work, as he can simply gets out just like what he did when he's trapped in 2-D.

Even then, Biology Manipulation.

 

[Bobsican]

The sealing sends him to 1-A (arguably High 1-A under the new system) levels within tier 11-C, so...

 

[Robo432343]

Even then, Biology Manipulation.

No
Bill didn't use bio manip on time baby which was an actual fight

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

i never said it is not in character DONT STRAWMAN ME RAAAH

No, you said that he never did it In-Character... i clearly don't see any possible statements than "ITS NOT IN-CHARACTER".

its just that Bill in a 1v1 did not use biology transmutation on time baby

Oh i don't know, maybe because he's not typically have organs because he's time itself?
Huh.

the times where he did use transmutation was to bully people, not in an actual fight

??????
That still can be used for his In-Character.
Are you really saying, if someone doesn't use it in a fight then it can't be used no matter its his main abilities?

Even then, Weirdmageddon is literally a war, its a fight, wha????

 

[Robo432343]

Bill uses his laser based transmutation more than biology based transmutation
the laser transmutation can easily be dodged
bill is cooked

 

[Robo432343]

Also Sora has more wincons than Bill

• type 1 concept hax
• BFR
• existence erasure
• mid godly regen neg
• type 2 info manipulation
• skill stomping
• power null

gg....

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

For the Chakra stuff I don't see Incorporeality being listed, and for Cursed Energy, well, it is incorporeal, but it's just something the characters manipulate, rather than the thing being the characters themselves, and such thing being capable of existing independently of the characters' bodies.

In the sense of Chakra, it is Incorporeal.
Are you forgetting Cursed Being existed? They're made because of Curse Energy.

No types listed

Oh, right, i'm confusing about Biology Manipulation.
Even then, its still not Layering or Greater or even Resistance to Biology.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Bill uses his laser based transmutation more than biology based transmutation
the laser transmutation can e

Where did you get this information from? If you're confusing eye-bats then no, and again, he didn't do it on-screen ... doesn't mean he didn't do it again off-screen.
We all see his victim there on the throne, including Stan.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

• type 1 concept hax
• BFR
• existence erasure
• mid godly regen neg
• type 2 info manipulation
• skill stomping
• power null

This is all is based on a gesture of activation, not thought or even passive.
Even some of them here is relies on Keyblade, stop yapping.

 

[Robo432343]

even if Bill transmutes Sora, Sora will kill himself and resurrect

this is over

also Sora has TRIPLE bills wincons

 

[Brogeefrong]

even if Bill transmutes Sora, Sora will kill himself and resurrect

this is over

also Sora has TRIPLE bills wincons

How would he do that if he’s transmutated/biology maniped

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

even if Bill transmutes Sora, he will kill himself and ressurect

1. How can he do that
2. Did he ever on his life perform this in a fight?
3. His Immo8 is based on Fate, Bill can rewrite it to dust. No more of them ressurectin sh*t.

also Sora has TRIPLE bills wincons

Like it will matter when his body being turned into a stone, or his body is being mixed, or his body is literally being turned to dust (Lmao, gets Time Baby treatment)

 

[Bobsican]

In the sense of Chakra, it is Incorporeal.
Are you forgetting Cursed Being existed? They're made because of Curse Energy.

IDK about JJK formally speaking, so this is new information relatively speaking to me, in any case the issue is more on such things encapsulating the respective traits that make up the character in question and being capable of existing independently of the character's body, meaning that merely physically interacting with the body won't affect the incorporeal thing, which is what is happening here with hearts and attempts to do any sort of "conciousness" manipulation.

Oh, right, i'm confusing about Biology Manipulation.
Even then, its still not Layering or Greater or even Resistance to Biology.

As I've explained that's not how it works, but we can agree to disagree at this point.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

meaning that merely physically interacting with the body won't affect the incorporeal thing, which is what is happening here with hearts and attempts to do any sort of "conciousness" manipulation.

No, and that's literally what happens in JJK yet they don't have Resistance over it.
You're like saying, AE2 Fate can't be interact by they're reliants to Fate... what? Or, they have Resistance to Fate because they're AE???
Its even listed in the page, that they are weak when it come to their aspect or counterpart.
This memories is, lets say, one of his components... that is why Hearts have a weakness to Memory Manipulation (its literally in the page).

As I've explained that's not how it works

Its a mechanism alright.
Its still not Layering, or Greater of an ability.

 

[Bobsican]

No, and that's literally what happens in JJK yet they don't have Resistance over it.
You're like saying, AE2 Fate can't be interact by they're reliants to Fate... what? Or, they have Resistance to Fate because they're AE???
Its even listed in the page, that they are weak when it come to their aspect or counterpart.
This memories is, lets say, one of his components... that is why Hearts have a weakness to Memory Manipulation (its literally in the page).

Yes, they are weak to Memory Manipulation as disruption of them can compromise them... if the heart can be manipulated in such manner in the first place, we've already gone in depth on how memories are in the heart in the first place as a crucial part of them, this is more of a semantic than something to directly index, feel free to make a CRT if you believe otherwise. This is like arguing you can manipulate a concept to alterate their memories while lacking Conceptual Manipulation in the first place.

Its a mechanism alright.
Its still not Layering, or Greater of an ability.

Never argued it falled as either of those two, but as you're conceeding what I'm arguing then Sora resists out of the semantics.