It's that TIME again.(Jiren, Goku and Hit potential upgrade, DBS)

[Ryukama]

And I already said that I'm pretty sure Hit just damaged Jiren with that dura negating attack. Not through sheer raw power.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Kukui

"You do realize the strength of Shenron relies on the power of the one who created him right?"

If that were the case Shenron couldn't have restored the moon and Porunga couldn't have recreated Earth, nor would Ultimate Shenron be stronger than Baby.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Closing threads because you don't like them is ludicrous, and future threads WILL be made about this even if it is.

There's a serious difference between "not liking" a thread and finding it tiring to debate as nothing solid is actually being prevented.

Seriously, stop trying to accuse the people who disagree with you as being biased.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Well Hit still fought much better than anyone else in the tournament and actually slightly damaged him. Even Ultra Instict Goku at the beginning if his fight with Jiren only grazed him.


So I suggest an "At least 3-A possibly High 3-A" rating for Hit as an ToP key for him.

 

[Ryukama]

The only thing that harmed Jiren was an intangible attack that went through a rock and then damaged Jiren's heart. I'm not sure if that's really a raw strength based attack.

Also are you suggesting Hit is stronger than UI Goku? Because I think that's kinda blatantly untrue.

 

[Peter1129]

And I already said that I'm pretty sure Hit just damaged Jiren with that dura negating attack. Not through sheer raw power.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't the durability negation punch. I think it was a different attack since he said he needed one punch to activate the time lock. And this one punch caused Jiren to grunt as well as knocked him all the way to the edge of the stage. But don't quote me on it I might be wrong.

Also Jiren did say Goku and Hit were the only ones worthy enough to fight him so I think that is another evidence of Hit being Possibly High 3―A.

 

[LordGinSama]

Guy's seriously if there's an issue then close the thread and make a new one on the staff board. This is honestly getting tiring. And it doesn't seem like Aeyu is accusing anyone of being bias.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Hit's dura negation attack actually failed against Jiren. He broke it in his hand.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui

"You do realize the strength of Shenron relies on the power of the one who created him right?"

If that were the case Shenron couldn't have restored the moon and Porunga couldn't have recreated Earth, nor would Ultimate Shenron be stronger than Baby.

Im pretty sure this was stated though. Didnt this get confirmed in the Saiyan Saga? Unless this have changed?

 

[AguilaR101]

Excuse me if I'm wrong but why High 3-A for Hit? The only things that got to Jiren was that dura negating blast and time-stopping him. It didn't seem like they were conventional AP attacks that harmed him. And Jiren glared Hit's ultimate attack back. They clearly aren't on the same level.

Hit would be High 3-A likely on the simple basis his guard can could take several direct attacks from Jiren with no indication of the latter holding back his strength.

And his shockwave techniques are not considered to be durability negating atm according to the profile, so the fact he is able to dent Jiren's chest and push him back to the edge of the stage would mean he overcame his durability with them, even if it didn't cause any lasting damage.

 

[AnimeFanboy2916]

What about Jiren and Goku resisting Hit's time-stop out of pure power or Chiaotzu's telekinesis not effecting Nappa or Future Trunks blocking Dabura's petrifying spit or Vegeta resisting Babidi's mind control? Those are all notable examples of Power>Hax in Dragon Ball. That's on top of Goku resisting Hakai and Hit's time-stop and Jiren resisting Hit's Time-Lock.

@Assaltwaffle

There's are all the examples of Power>Hax that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

The only thing that harmed Jiren was an intangible attack that went through a rock and then damaged Jiren's heart. I'm not sure if that's really a raw strength based attack.

Also you're not seriously saying Hit is stronger than UI Goku right?

I'm in no way,shape or form implying that Hit is stronger than UI Goku. That is ludicrous.

I am impliying however that he should be comparable to a casual Jiren. Jiren just by walking had performed his High 3-A feat. There can be differences in power in High 3-A

The way i see it:

Casual Jiren>=UI Goku>>Hit (however still comparable)

 

[Ryukama]

Hit would be High 3-A likely on the simple basis his guard can could take several direct attacks from Jiren with no indication of the latter holding back his strength.

No indication of holding back? How about the fact that this is a tournament where you're disqualified if you kill your opponent and Jiren later glares away Hit's ultimate attack then completely fodderizes him?

And his shockwave techniques are not considered to be durability negating atm according to the profile, so the fact he is able to dent Jiren's chest and push him back to the edge of the stage would mean he overcame his durability with them, even if it didn't cause any lasting damage.

And it probably should be IMO. This is an intangible attack that phases through other objects and deals damage to the heart in particular.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Animefanboy

Add Vegito being immune to Transmutation to that list.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Hit's attack, which is called Flash Fist Crush BTW, probably should be durability negating since it does pass though solid matter and hits the opponent's vitals.

 

[Ryukama]

Okay I think I mistook Hit's attack that damaged Jiren with another technique of Hit's

I suppose I'm fine with Hit having a High 3-A via that time stoppage punch technique. But I stand by that they are likely incomparable strength wise all around.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Animefanboy

Add Vegito being immune to Transmutation to that list.

Immunity is NLF and Vegito clearly still got turned into candy despite fighting as one. Thats minor resistance.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Okay I think I mistook Hit's attack that damaged Jiren with another technique of Hit's

I suppose I'm fine with Hit having a High 3-A via that time stoppage punch technique. But I stand by that they are likely incomparable strength wise all around.

Jiren is still far superior to Hit and would totally wreck him which is why i initially suggested "3-A. High 3-A with Time-Lock"

 

[Peter1129]

Jiren is still far superior to Hit and would totally wreck him which is why i initially suggested "3-A. High 3-A with Time-Lock"

I think 3-A Possibly/Likely High 3-A would be better since he was able to deal some damage with his time lock punch as well as survive multiple hits from Jiren. Which had previously one shotted characters like Maji Kayo with its air pressure alone.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

Well Hit retrained a casual Jiren and made him go serious.A, not sure to what extent. Also that punch in his chest is far better than anything pre UI Goku ever did.

Even Jiren himself acknowledged Hit saying Hit and Goku were the only guys he was needed for.

So yeah High 3-A Hit from me too.

 

[Ryukama]

@SSGJ Maybe 3-A. High 3-A with Time-Lock would work.

@All Also here's some abilities to add to Jiren.

1. Ability to block intangible attacks (He blocked Hit's attack that had phased through a rock prior)

2. Mid-Low Regenerationn (Immediately grew back that big hole Hit left in his chest)

 

[Shock97]

@Ryukama Are we giving Jiren Time Stop resistance as well?

 

[SSJRyu1]

hmmm. Well vados says Jiren trancends time, and supreme kai states time has no meaning to Jiren. Honestly it's implying immesurable speed directly twice, saying otherwise is head canon, nothing stated it overwrote Hits technique or negs it, they refer dierctly to trancending time in general and time having no meaning to him.


One could argue outlier, but then again Zamasu was omnipresent, a form of immesurable, and he was not thought of as a significant threat by the angels, Beerus, Zeno etc upon feeling his power and influence, and jiren is implied to be superior to Zamasu earlier as well. So not the first one at immesurable speed.


Also worth noting speed and power rise together with higher ki, as confiremd many times through the series, no matter the scaling wehther it be 1 to 1 or 1 to 100 at infinte ki you get infinte speed and power logically, so that relationship matches up well with Jiren who has minimum of infinite 3D power even on his current standing in this wiki.


So yeah, I would consider him immesurable with Low 2C power by scaling from Zamasu. Thats my stance at least.

 

[Aeyu]

I also think that it should be put in Goku and Jiren's description, along with the infinity shaking thing, that Jiren's power is said to transcend time, which would put him in the higher grade of this tier (High 3-A). That is, if the Low 2-C thing isn't accepted.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I agree with the abilities Ryukama wants to add.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ryukama Are we giving Jiren Time Stop resistance as well?

Yeah but everyone's been saying Time Stop resistance and I haven't heard anyone mention the abilities I suggested.

 

[Aeyu]

@Ryukama Are we giving Jiren Time Stop resistance as well?

Yeah but everyone's been saying Time Stop resistance and I haven't heard anyone mention the abilities I suggested.

I agree with those being added to his profile. What do you think about the addendum to their AP in its description?

 

[Shock97]

@Ryukama Are we giving Jiren Time Stop resistance as well?

Yeah but everyone's been saying Time Stop resistance and I haven't heard anyone mention the abilities I suggested.

I see. Well I'm good with the ones you mentioned.

 

[UltraInstinctGoku]

Based on what was stated in the show, it could imply a low 2-C jiren, but as i was reading here, people might not agree. Besides, IMO, he should be stronger than merged zamasu at this point.

 

[LordGinSama]

@SSGJ Maybe 3-A. High 3-A with Time-Lock would work.

@All Also here's some abilities to add to Jiren.

1. Ability to block intangible attacks (He blocked Hit's attack that had phased through a rock prior)

2. Mid-Low Regenerationn (Immediately grew back that big hole Hit left in his chest)

Look closely, it wasn't a hole but rather a chest. Nonetheless he did repair the damage to his heart so Mid-Low Regenerationn makes sense.

 

[Aeyu]

Also, how come no one has commented on the second scan, regarding his strength being unstoppable even by time? I think that is a better argument for scaling him to Fusion Zamasu than the first argument.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Ryu

Mid-Low regen sounds fine on top of the ability to block intangible attacks.

@Aeyu

For the dozenth time, "transcending time" has no effect on AP.

 

[Hiyami]

It was a hole, but it wasn't a penetrated/punctured hole.

 

[Ryukama]

@Knight What? Yes Hit did make a hole in Jiren's chest that he later fills up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRz8ThUAoW0&t=3m33s

^ How is this not a hole?

 

[Aeyu]

Also, Marcarita states that Jiren, "is in a class of his own," after those statements are made.

 

[Aeyu]

@Ryu
Mid-Low regen sounds fine on top of the ability to block intangible attacks.

@Aeyu

For the dozenth time, "transcending time" has no effect on AP.

I'm talking about the second scan, not the first. Also, no need to be condescending.

 

[LordGinSama]

What? Yes Hit did make a hole in Jiren's chest that he later fills up.

Really? Seemed like a dent to me. Didn't seem that deep of a hole to me but I might be seeing it wrong.


Edit: Nvm thank you for correcting me.

 

[UltraInstinctGoku]

As a matter of fact, i agree with hit being changed to "3-A, possibly/likely High 3-A".

 

[Hiyami]

What? Yes Hit did make a hole in Jiren's chest that he later fills up.

Really? Seemed like a dent to me. Didn't seem that deep of a hole to me but I might be seeing it wrong.

It was a pretty deep dent, it's still a hole.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

The second scan implies Jiren's Time Skip resistance more than the first actually. Unstopable by time and most of Hit's techniques are time-based.