Issue with qualitative superiority in God of War (downgrade)

[KLOL506]

Kratos can interact with Souls in general and other abstract stuff like Type 1 Concepts and he himself is AE2 iirc, if that counts. The scans regarding this should be in the profile. So, him being not able to interact with Athena at least can be argued to her being more abstract.

1. Abstract Existence and Concept Bullshit don't provide anything for QS.

2. That stuff is not even relevant or needed to this topic at hand. At all.

EDIT: Anyway, best we listen to what Deagonx said and wait for staff. Deagonx and Tanin basically gave their summaries, so now Athena's fate is left in the hands of staff.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, so...

Summary in favor of Low 1-C: https://vsbattles.com/threads/issue...y-in-god-of-war-downgrade.156098/post-5918881

Summary for against Low 1-C: https://vsbattles.com/threads/issue...y-in-god-of-war-downgrade.156098/post-5920012

@Celestial_Pegasus @Emirp sumitpo @Moritzva @DarkGrath @CrimsonStarFallen @Lonkitt @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Qawsedf234 @Abstractions @Sir_Ovens @ByAsura @Starter_Pack @FinePoint @Elizio33 @UchihaSlayer96 @KingTempest @JustSomeWeirdo @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Just_a_Random_Butler

Ultima already knows of this thread and is well aware of it so tagging him again won't be necessary, plus he's busy with other stuff. He'll arrive when he can.

 

[FinePoint]

I tend to agree with Deagonx. Below are my disagreements with each point in the supporting post for qualitative superiority.

The character in question which has statements of Higher Existence is Athena, who claims to have been brought to a Higher existence by her selfless act of saving Zeus.

• A "higher existence" does not necessarily imply qualitative superiority.
  1. This could just as easily be referring to a non-specific quantitative difference.

Now, the context of what this Higher existence entails in the setting according to WoG is that Athena has ascended to this higher plane/realm, which is a place that was higher than everybody else, and experiences a power greater than everybody else.
The author's intention is clearly alluding her to a higher state of existence that is normally unreachable by everybody within the setting.

1. It being unreachable by people in the current plane doesn't necessarily imply qualitative superiority.
   1. Again, this could simply be quantitative, as being beyond someone's reach doesn't mean it's infinitely above their reach.
2. It being higher and more powerful than everyone in the current known realms doesn't necessarily imply qualitative superiority.
   1. Again, this could simply be quantitative, as being stronger than someone doesn't mean you're infinitely stronger.

In fact this is further shown by Athena being completely un-interactable by Kratos.

1. This could simply be because she's projecting from someplace else and/or is intangible, and does not prove she's infinitely superior.

The everybody here refers to structures such as the Greek realms, the Norse realms and Yggdrasil, characters and their magic systems which are indexed as Tier 2-C (4D level) currently.

1. In fact, the existence and nature of the separate realms and how they're reached can serve as possible counterevidence to the claim. Kratos implies heavily many times that those from the Greek pantheon were stronger than those in the Norse pantheon, making it a "more powerful" realm, but this doesn't mean they were infinitely more powerful, as Kratos does have to put some effort into fighting the Norse pantheon.
2. There are many instances in the Norse pantheon where Kratos is physically unable to travel to certain realms until future circumstances make it possible, despite it being implied he physically traveled to Midgard, something that is reinforced in the comics. It could simply be practical reasons the characters can't currently reach this realm, rather than it being literally impossible due to qualitative superiority.

The evidence presented only clearly establishes that Athena is "more powerful" and in a "higher realm" than the other characters, but does not establish that the difference is large enough for it to be a qualitative superiority.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Man, how did you all extend this to 4 pages. It's not even a large topic. Goddamn.

Apparently another point that was brought up was that this higher plane encompasses infinite 4d spaces. However, this doesnt indicate a higher level of infinity. An infinite set can encompass a set without being on a higher level of infinity. One of the core parts of being an infinite set is that it has subsets (which it encompasses) of the same cardinality as it.

In short, if you wanna skip the math stuff, transcending infinite 4D universes does not indicate 5d.

Responding to that just so the misconception doesn't spread: The start of this is right but the conclusion is wrong. If you encompass a n-dimensional space while still having equal dimensionality to it, all you're doing is acting as an extension of the same axes (Like this). To simultaneously encompasses a space and also comprise an area completely external to it (As in, beyond its spacetime or something), though, you'll need the other axis.

Anyway: As obnoxious as the thread's supporting side is, I agree with them, yeah. All I see here is Athena ascending to "a higher plane" (We receive no elaboration on the nature of this realm) and becoming more powerful than the rest of the setting. Those things, neither separately nor in combination, amount to a Low 1-C tier.

You can be a "higher plane" that's not really greater than "lower planes" in any way that grants an infinite superiority over them (See most verses where Heaven is talked about as a plane higher than the living world, of which there are a lot). You can obviously be more powerful than someone else without being infinitely more powerful. And... You can be both of those things at once. Adding the former to the latter isn't a recipe for Tier 1.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Staff Vote Tally​

Agreements	Neutral​	Disagreements​
@Deagonx	@LephyrTheRevanchist​	@Planck69​
@Firestorm808		@Theglassman12​
@Ultima_Reality
@FinePoint
@Mr._Bambu
5	1​	2​

Important Posts/Links

• List of all shreds of evidence
• List of all arguments (arguments for/against)
• Summary in against of low 1-C
• Summary in favor of Low 1-C
• Ultima's post (honorable mention)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay, so...

Summary in favor of Low 1-C: https://vsbattles.com/threads/issue...y-in-god-of-war-downgrade.156098/post-5918881

Summary for against Low 1-C: https://vsbattles.com/threads/issue...y-in-god-of-war-downgrade.156098/post-5920012

@Celestial_Pegasus @Emirp sumitpo @Moritzva @DarkGrath @CrimsonStarFallen @Lonkitt @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Qawsedf234 @Abstractions @Sir_Ovens @ByAsura @Starter_Pack @FinePoint @Elizio33 @UchihaSlayer96 @KingTempest @JustSomeWeirdo @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Just_a_Random_Butler

Ultima already knows of this thread and is well aware of it so tagging him again won't be necessary, plus he's busy with other stuff. He'll arrive when he can.

mf avoided pinging me smh

I was asked to speak here, I hate it, but I will, because they asked nicely.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I agree with Deagonx FRA.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright, I've read the linked stuff above. I would say that in the void of more explicit evidence, I align more with the downgrade crew than the... maintain, crew.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay, that's a fairly decisive vote in favor of the downgrade. Is it fair to say this can be closed and applied now?

 

[KLOL506]

I assume Athena's HDE would get removed as well?

 

[ImmortalDread]

The rules for HDE is changed; she got it from the old standards. There is no proof for higher spatial/mathematical spatiality in her existence.

 

[KLOL506]

Aite. I'll do it. Thread can be closed then.

@Marvel_Champion_07 Can you open the profiles of both Kratos and Athena?

 

[Deagonx]

Thread can be closed then.

Doing so now