• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Is this Conceptual manipulation Type 2 or 1???

TheUnshakableOne

TheUnshakableOne

She/Her
VS Battles
Retired
6,300
1,595
the "constellation" in the universe determines the fate of all humans born under their alignment. Even when a specific constellation disappears because stars die over time. The imprint of that constellation still remains in the universe and its still possible for people to be born under its alignment and still have their fate govern by that now non-existent constellation.

God tiers using their power of "thought" on the stars in the universe to control the fate of humans including the constellations that no longer exist.

Is this Type 2 Conceptual manipulation? it sounds like Conceptual manipulation to me, but im torn between either type 1 or type 2
 
seems type 3. As type 3 is only for the specific object aka the constellation. Though I would say if changing or manipulating that constellation in turn causes those born under it to be effected then I believe 2 would fit.
 
Arkenis said:
seems type 3. As type 3 is only for the specific object aka the constellation. Though I would say if changing or manipulating that constellation in turn causes those born under it to be effected then I believe 2 would fit.
Click to expand...
Even when the object no longer exist it still has a governance over reality. The Gods change constellations alignment (including the constellations that no longer exist) and that changes the fate of the people born under them

also if they are erased (not destroyed but specifically erased) the people born under them are erased too
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
Even when the object no longer exist it still has a governance over reality. The Gods change constellations alignment (including the constellations that no longer exist) and that changes the fate of the people born under them

also if they are erased (not destroyed but specifically erased) the people born under them are erased too
Click to expand...
Yeah then i think type 2 fits
 
With how double standards regarding conceptual stuff going on i'm not gonna decide this stuff, however it do behave like concept so this is type 2 it seem
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
the "constellation" in the universe determines the fate of all humans born under their alignment. Even when a specific constellation disappears because stars die over time. The imprint of that constellation still remains in the universe and its still possible for people to be born under its alignment and still have their fate govern by that now non-existent constellation.

God tiers using their power of "thought" on the stars in the universe to control the fate of humans including the constellations that no longer exist.

Is this Type 2 Conceptual manipulation? it sounds like Conceptual manipulation to me, but im torn between either type 1 or type 2
Click to expand...
Can they manipulate nature of fate itself by manipulating constellations? Or they just Manipulate constellations to manipulate fate of the universe? Is destroying, manipulating and other changes in the constellation cause changes in the very nature of fate? If not then it's just fate Manipulation.
 
Firstly nowhere in the OP says anything about idea, secondly idea is no longer treated as a concept without further context, it can just mean a thought from mind (yea IZ's conceptual existence got downgraded despite it's idea)
 
The constellations aren't just stars alingnment, most of the time they're treated as entities and real things in fiction, such as mother gaya for earth itself.

Well it doesn't really matter regardless, for something to be qualified as concept, as of type 2, they must follow our standards that said destroying or altering it must have effects on very nature of "Fate", controlling Fate is different thing, a concept can provide control but that's not the basic demand here. Constellations anyway decides fate of us, it's a irl stuff, in my country everyone borns with specific constellation and it is related to our fate stuff and all. Controlling Fate is fate Manipulation.
 
Reiner said:
The constellations aren't just stars alingnment, most of the time they're treated as entities and real things in fiction, such as mother gaya for earth itself.

Well it doesn't really matter regardless, for something to be qualified as concept, as of type 2, they must follow our standards that said destroying or altering it must have effects on very nature of "Fate", controlling Fate is different thing, a concept can provide control but that's not the basic demand here. Constellations anyway decides fate of us, it's a irl stuff, in my country everyone borns with specific constellation and it is related to our fate stuff and all. Controlling Fate is fate Manipulation.
Click to expand...
You can just say that controlling the concept of fate is conceptual hax rather than controlling the fate itself
 
Delta333 said:
You can just say that controlling the concept of fate is conceptual hax rather than controlling the fate itself
Click to expand...
I can but it is important to note and reply the arguement in question which is "constellations are concept of fate as they decides they decides the fate of those born in the specific alignment" and so Fate is object and constellations are concepts is the arguement here (as in interpretation)
 
Just sounds like an unusual mechanism behind fate manipulation.
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
Even when the object no longer exist it still has a governance over reality. The Gods change constellations alignment (including the constellations that no longer exist) and that changes the fate of the people born under them

also if they are erased (not destroyed but specifically erased) the people born under them are erased too
Click to expand...
It looks like this type 2 CM. What is required for the Type 1 CM is that the concepts are superior and independent of reality.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Either direct statement about fundamental abstract ideas/concept or it show to be abstract in nature and display properties, behaviors of concept
Click to expand...
That's a bit vague in the latter half there ...

Do you have good examples when there isn't any statement of Ideas or concepts?
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
What information would be needed to show its type 2 Conceptual Manipulation?

Thank you for the response btw
Click to expand...
It shows that concepts can have an effect at the abstract and reality level. This type is 2. However, if the concepts are superior and independent of the order of reality, its type1.
 
Out of curiosity if something was independent of the order of reality before it's creation and later was implemented into reality would that still be type 2 or 1?
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
What information would be needed to show its type 2 Conceptual Manipulation?

Thank you for the response btw
Click to expand...
Manipulating, destroying, creating concept changes changes the nature of object and destroys, creates the object all over the reality. Just simply having control doesn't mean it's concept. Also if there is statement of concept and it's influence is over all of reality then again good.
 
Constellations are the the "things" that determine the "fate" of all beings born under that specific alignment. Constellations are what gives "properties" to fate.

It is the "Divine Consciousness/Will/Mind" of a God that makes changes to the constellations which in turn changes properties of fate.

Even when a specific constellation no longer exist it is still governing fate over a specific area of reality.

the "Divine Will" of a God is what gives, defines, shapes, changes, alters, etc the "nature" of "constellations" which govern the "properties of "Fate"

Constellations are the source of the properties and nature of "fate."

Heres another quote i been looking for for like 30 mintues now lol. Just now found it after posting this

All people are born and die under the fate of the stars. The firmament and the world we live in reflect each other. If the world changes, the stars and their design in the sky change, that is, the constellations that determine the sacred cloths change as well. With this, the very nature of the Knights' armor is changing, and the Holy Warriors know this.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
additionally i found this from ultima

Conceptual Manipulation as a power just boils down to "Is able to manipulate some abstract essence that defines and governs some aspect of physical reality and can thus enact changes in the latter as a result," and Type 1 just adds the requirement that this essence must also exist independently from the physical world. Both of those are things that Dreams in Chrono very much fit the bill for. So, manipulating them is either Conceptual Manipulation or something that in the end is functionally identical.

vsbattles.com

Chrono Revisions (Lavos, Dreams, AP)

So the Chrono profiles are relics from an old era. Thus they’re bad, so there are a few misconceptions that have sprung up from them. So as a TLDR. Lavos is getting toned down a bit in abilities Chrono Trigger is getting toned the **** up in AP Chrono Trigger gets a solid amount of resistances...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...

might be useful here, or.. maybe not?
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
additionally i found this from ultima



might be useful here, or.. maybe not?
Click to expand...
He seems to have not explained in detail over what he meant by changes in the later, for instance here, change of fate is not enough to justify that constellations are concepts but rather fate itself not be the fate as we know it to begin with, destroying constellations or it's essence destroys fate as well, etcetcetc, control over fate will be given in the conceptual Manipulation but that's just given anyway when it's comes to concepts. For the quote above:

All people are born and die under the fate of the stars. The firmament and the world we live in reflect each other. If the world changes, the stars and their design in the sky change, that is, the constellations that determine the sacred cloths change as well. With this, the very nature of the Knights' armor is changing, and the Holy Warriors know this.

I have no knowledge of context or lore to understand the quote, so I can't give my input on this.
 
Reiner said:
All people are born and die under the fate of the stars. The firmament and the world we live in reflect each other. If the world changes, the stars and their design in the sky change, that is, the constellations that determine the sacred cloths change as well. With this, the very nature of the Knights' armor is changing, and the Holy Warriors know this.
Click to expand...
with the quote i was referring back too these comment sfrom DontTalk since it mentions that a "nature" is changing.

"However, concepts should be... general... to use a vague term. Concepts, in our usage of them, are to laws of nature, what laws of nature are to matter. They are the cause of the laws, in a certain sense, and dictate how they work. Or perhaps it would be better to say they are the cause of the properties of the objects which dictate, based on the laws, how things work."DontTalk (DT)


"Changing the property of a flame to make it cold mean you change the property "being hot" into the property "being cold". Meanwhile, concept manip would take the property "being hot" and let the flame remain hot. Instead, it would make it so that things that are hot behave like being cold.
If inverting gravity is gravity manipulation, but changing the nature of gravity is law manipultion, then inverting a property should be property manipulation, but changing the nature of the property itself would be concept manipulation. That might be a good way to put it."

Also DontTalk (TD)


"I mean, we could change Type 3 to that if everyone prefers, but I see quite a big difference between changing the property of something and changing the nature of the property (i.e. concept) itself. One thing affects the object, the other thing affects the property. The target is different. As said, like the difference between manipulating gravity and changing the nature of gravity itself.
As long as it's separated it probably isn't vastly important what it is listed as, but separated it should be." - DT

vsbattles.com

Conceptual Manipulation Clarifications/Revisions

Hello All, The topic of this discussion is in regards to how we treat conceptual manipulation and is sort of stemming from the current JjK hax revisions thread, and this incomplete thread discussing some of the concepts I am touching upon today. Essentially, we don't really have an avenue...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...

Those aren't two separate definitions. It's two parts of the same definition. A Type 1 Concept has to be independent of reality and be a source of a property to those things that participate in them.

I'm not sure why you assume concepts can't participate in other concepts due to this definition. They don't have to be independent of other concepts, but from the governed reality i.e. the actual world. See this in contrast to Type 2 where alteration of every object governed can cause alteration of the concept.

Also, just in case, will point out that time, space and causality aren't concepts in themselves. They are actual non-abstract things. There are separate concepts of time, space and causality.

vsbattles.com

Concept Manip Type 1's Misaligned Definition

Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation is defined as: 1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...

Thing is, all of this could also apply for type 3. Type 2 is more for concepts that aren't just abstractions of a single thing and more for concepts that grant a property to reality at large (like "circleness" making all circles round.) Ichibe seems to deal more with individual names of people.
Like, changing the name Yhwach probably affected nobody else that was named Yhwach besides his target.

vsbattles.com

What to rank name based manipulations as? (Mostly Clash of Hexennacht, mentions Bleach and Medaka Box as precedence cases)

So, Clash of Hexennacht has a few users with the ability to mess with names. Specifically, they currently list the following: Conceptual Manipulation (Witches are capable of controlling names, names are the definition of things in themselves, and things exist because of names. Witches can...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...

But on the general level, what we have to this point would be:
Manipulating names as abstract things is either concept type 3 or 2. Per default it's 3, but if there is proof that the character can modify a name to not just modify the properties given by the name to one target, but all targets in some governed reality that share that name, it would be 2.

Click to expand...
Constellations are what give "natures" and "Properties" to "Fate" which govern an area over reality and for the ultima quote i posted above in a reply before this, they do appear to be independent of "physical reality." Even when they are gone they still control am aspect of reality.

Constellations are what govern fate they are not fate itself.
hopefully that makes sense.. I will admit im not the best at putting what i want to say in my head into physical seeable words
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Does being Resistant to Conceptual Manipulation(Type 1) mean you also resist the other types?
Replies
5
Views
632
MysticBrawler
Robo432343
NEP type 1 or 2 concept question
Replies
32
Views
1K
Robo432343
Robo432343
Frxwins
a Simple Analogy of Conceptual Manipulation
Replies
7
Views
1K
Astral_Trinity439
Astral_Trinity439
Arkenis
Concept Question Type 1 or 2
Replies
6
Views
442
Zabazab
Zabazab
Fate franchise questions.
Replies
8
Views
746
MysticBrawler
Back
Top