Is Johan an extraordinary genius?

[NikHelton]

Johan's profile says:

With just his intelligence, he has brought various companies, criminal enterprises, white supremacist groups and other organizations down to their knees. At the age of ten, he managed to manipulate fifty people in 511 Kinderheim to kill each other shortly after having arrived to the orphanage. Between the ages of twelve and thirteen, he quickly learned and became perfectly fluent in English and French over the course of thirteen months, and at the age of fifteen, he started and presided over an underground bank, showcasing an in-depth understanding of mathematics, economics, trade, business, politics, management and leadership in spite of his young age. Heinrich Lunge, a man who could determine a killer's exact motives and personality by analyzing one of their crime scenes and psychologically entering their mindset, was unable to determine anything after analyzing the scene of one of Johan's crimes, eventually going as far as to say "I do not exist" when attempting to assume the latter's mentality. Hans Georg Schuwald, a prominent business figure renowned for his ability to manipulate the German economy with ease, praised Johan's knowledge of law and economics, even comparing him to the biblical Beast of Revelations and claiming him to be the beyond-human, chaotic monster he had aspired to be in years past. His mastery over psychology and analysis is such that he is able to find the root and foundation of an individual's personality within moments of meeting them, having displayed this ability countless times throughout the series

For this, he is credited with a brilliant intellect, but doesn't that make him an extraordinary genius? At the age of 10, he organized a massacre among the most talented psychological teachers selected by the state for a secret project and the children being tested, each of whom was a potential leader of the country. At the age of 15, without focusing on a specific case, but only supporting his plans and finances, he founded an underground bank, and the man who easily manipulates the economy of the whole country calls him the ideal he has been striving for all his life.

Brilliant detectives are just marking time investigating his case.

With one short conversation, he is able to bring a seasoned detective to suicide, which indicates his deepest knowledge of psychology and all this at his young age.

At the same time, he does not devote himself entirely to any of these cases. All these are just elements of his plan.

I suppose his intelligence should be rated higher than just "genius"

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Unless if you know a user is a willing friend, supporter, aquaintence, staff, user you've helped, etc, don't advertise your threads on other threads. You may get looked at the wrong way.

You're lucky to find me, who's briefly watched the beginning to mid of the anime.

Oh, and in advance, sorry for any offending typos, typing on my phone gets dumb omg.

 

[NikHelton]

Okay?

What are you think about theme?

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah it sounds like eg. Though eg is just very vague on this.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Read Another Monster should give you more feats.

 

[NikHelton]

Yeah it sounds like eg. Though eg is just very vague on this.

Johan's intelligence and manipulation put him several heads above characters with genius intellects

 

[NikHelton]

Bump

 

[RoggerReggor]

I think "At least Genius, likely higher" seems better.

This sucks man, but E.G. probably needs some supercomputer level of brain computing speed, good prediction (though it is defined as anticipation on the wiki and is seen as overall foresight) abilities, complex strategizing with high amount of adversity capacity and crazy knowledge in multiple fields of science.

You also should explain Johan's prediction feats, pretty sure he had a few good ones listed in his document.

 

[Secimatar]

I can agree with this

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Agree FRA

 

[NikHelton]

How about "At least Genius, probably higher in general, Extraordinary Genius in psychology, plans and manipulation

 

[RoggerReggor]

I absolutely do not think Johan is too much above the level of a human being in terms of manipulation, and Johan is meant to be realistic (so Extraordinary Genius is just out of question). I honestly think that saying that Johan does anything too much in the realm of unrealism would seem somehow out-of-place considering how the manga itself revolves around reality and the tragic realities of the world (and it's a peak manga for that, I didn't watch the anime entirely so I cannot say for sure about how it could have been there).

I would say Johan has peak intellect in general. Many of his feats are similar to IRL world records, like being able to be highly mature and have the ability to understand stuff at a very young age which has similar stuff like that IRL (though it's not manipulation, psychology, etc., it is more related to the general feats which is comparably similar in terms of basic contexts).

But yes, Johan's execution in manipulation and control tactics, his realization and stuff are just too good. I think "At least Genius, likely higher" is much better.

 

[NikHelton]

I don't think it's just "high intelligence" to drive a person who actively communicates with a professional psychologist to suicide in a couple of minutes of communication. As well as killing with words, forcing everyone in the boarding school to kill each other. It's something beyond human and that's why Johan is a real Monster.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I can agree, but it is something which does get replicated IRL, examples may be the older era kings/generals causing their soldiers to fight for THEIR land and basically risk their lives entirely.

Johan is very good at understanding psychology, to the point where he does make people kill each other with his manipulation, which is pretty OP, do not get me wrong, but as for the question for whether it is above the human limits by a lot, I do not seem to agree with that too much.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I agree with Reggor here

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I can agree with At least Genius, likely higher

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I absolutely do not think Johan is too much above the level of a human being in terms of manipulation, and Johan is meant to be realistic (so Extraordinary Genius is just out of question). I honestly think that saying that Johan does anything too much in the realm of unrealism would seem somehow out-of-place considering how the manga itself revolves around reality and the tragic realities of the world (and it's a peak manga for that, I didn't watch the anime entirely so I cannot say for sure about how it could have been there).

I would say Johan has peak intellect in general. Many of his feats are similar to IRL world records, like being able to be highly mature and have the ability to understand stuff at a very young age which has similar stuff like that IRL (though it's not manipulation, psychology, etc., it is more related to the general feats which is comparably similar in terms of basic contexts).

But yes, Johan's execution in manipulation and control tactics, his realization and stuff are just too good. I think "At least Genius, likely higher" is much better.

This is an arguement from incredulity.

 

[Beamgc]

I absolutely do not think Johan is too much above the level of a human being in terms of manipulation, and Johan is meant to be realistic (so Extraordinary Genius is just out of question). I honestly think that saying that Johan does anything too much in the realm of unrealism would seem somehow out-of-place considering how the manga itself revolves around reality and the tragic realities of the world (and it's a peak manga for that, I didn't watch the anime entirely so I cannot say for sure about how it could have been there).

I would say Johan has peak intellect in general. Many of his feats are similar to IRL world records, like being able to be highly mature and have the ability to understand stuff at a very young age which has similar stuff like that IRL (though it's not manipulation, psychology, etc., it is more related to the general feats which is comparably similar in terms of basic contexts).

But yes, Johan's execution in manipulation and control tactics, his realization and stuff are just too good. I think "At least Genius, likely higher" is much better.

The stuff I remember from Johan is far from realism. He can manipulate anyone with a few conversations and its implied that he could start a third world war if he wanted to. He also has stealth abilities far beyond realism, such as being able to delete any evidence of his existence, to the point highly intelligent detectives think he is a fiction created by a paranoid doctor. He's also the best at absolutely everything he does in-universe.

I think Johan should get Madness manipulation and fear manipulation too, as he managed to drive a man crazy just by looking into his eyes. A drunk man became consumed with fear just by looking at him. Many people are paralyzed by fear/driven to madness just at hearing his name or meeting him.

 

[Arkenis]

I think Johan should get Madness manipulation and fear manipulation too, as he managed to drive a man crazy just by looking into his eyes. A drunk man became consumed with fear just by looking at him. Many people are paralyzed by fear/driven to madness just at hearing his name or meeting him.

What chapter does he look at the man and drunk man? And fear of his name can be social influence

 

[Beamgc]

What chapter does he look at the man and drunk man? And fear of his name can be social influence

here



here

And fear of his name can be social influence

you may have a point here, but some characters are left in a complete state of panic just after meeting him for a few minutes, like the patient at the beginning

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah both seem like social influencing. When do these scenes happen in the manga though?

 

[Beamgc]

Yeah both seem like social influencing. When do these scenes happen in the manga though?

the 1st one he simply stares at the man and he goes crazy. Not to mention this man has no knowledge of his criminal activities, so it makes no sense to be social influence.

The second one doesn't even know Johan, he's just a random guy who looks at him and coincidentally sees the biblical monster of the Antichrist, a biblical figure who served as inspiration for Johan's creation.

I didn't read the manga, I just watched the anime, but it has no fillers so everything is canon.

 

[Arkenis]

the 1st one he simply stares at the man and he goes crazy. Not to mention this man has no knowledge of his criminal activities, so it makes no sense to be social influence.

Not all Social Influence requires you knowing about the person. And the first one is the man in the chair, they have a whole talk and he seems to know him to a good extent.

The second one doesn't even know Johan, he's just a random guy who looks at him and coincidentally sees the biblical monster of the Antichrist, a biblical figure who served as inspiration for Johan's creation.

Yeah that's fine. Both can be social influence, they don't need to know him. The second one looks at Johan and looks at his features something in Instigating Fear.

He'd probably just have all types besides Animal Charming from what I know about Johan.

 

[Hixkaryana]

I think "At least Genius, likely higher" seems better.

This sucks man, but E.G. probably needs some supercomputer level of brain computing speed, good prediction (though it is defined as anticipation on the wiki and is seen as overall foresight) abilities, complex strategizing with high amount of adversity capacity and crazy knowledge in multiple fields of science.

You also should explain Johan's prediction feats, pretty sure he had a few good ones listed in his document.

We have Gru as an EG and we didn’t need crazy a** feats to get him there.

 

[Arkenis]

We have Gru as an EG and we didn’t need crazy a** feats to get him there.

Actually we did. Gru created a rocket of random stuff as a child. He's invented devices and knows how to use them beyond any irl devices. A crt was already made that tried removing his eg and it got shut down so don't bring up Gru like he's an example of low EG requirements.

 

[Hixkaryana]

Actually we did. Gru created a rocket of random stuff as a child. He's invented devices and knows how to use them beyond any irl devices. A crt was already made that tried removing his eg and it got shut down so don't bring up Gru like he's an example of low EG requirements.

I’m the one that made that CRT. His rocket was a flop and only could go several feet up, but I settled with it because he made it when he was 4. His inventions were all done thanks to Dr. Nefario and him using them is not even that good of a feat. Performing strategies under pressure, sure. He had 2/4 categories checked so he somehow passed. (And he’s very much a showcase of low EG requirements, especially when you look at the other EG’s)

 

[RoggerReggor]

The stuff I remember from Johan is far from realism. He can manipulate anyone with a few conversations and its implied that he could start a third world war if he wanted to. He also has stealth abilities far beyond realism, such as being able to delete any evidence of his existence, to the point highly intelligent detectives think he is a fiction created by a paranoid doctor. He's also the best at absolutely everything he does in-universe.

1. "Manipulate anyone" - This is wrong. He manipulates people with psychological and emotional weaknesses and preys on those weaknesses. Like if he learnt about someone's sense of fear of law, he would pretend to be from law and attack their sense of urgency. Read Another Monster, most of his feats are psychologically explained.
2. "He could start a third world war if he wanted to" - This is nothing too extraordinary. Johan has the power to climb up the stairs in the world of politics. He can quite literally just manipulate countries and do it. The scale doesn't matter, the process employed to do it does.
3. "Being able to delete any evidence of his existence" - This is just exaggerated. All he did was get rid of all the people whom he thought could harm his existence by speaking ill of him.
4. "Highly intelligent detectives think he is a fiction created by a paranoid doctor" - Again, same thing. Detectives need proofs for their deductions, which Johan always cleared so he couldn't get caught.
5. In-verse, yes, Johan is the best in most of the stuff.

I think Johan should get Madness manipulation and fear manipulation too, as he managed to drive a man crazy just by looking into his eyes. A drunk man became consumed with fear just by looking at him. Many people are paralyzed by fear/driven to madness just at hearing his name or meeting him.

the 1st one he simply stares at the man and he goes crazy. Not to mention this man has no knowledge of his criminal activities, so it makes no sense to be social influence.

The second one doesn't even know Johan, he's just a random guy who looks at him and coincidentally sees the biblical monster of the Antichrist, a biblical figure who served as inspiration for Johan's creation.

I didn't read the manga, I just watched the anime, but it has no fillers so everything is canon.

The thing is, unless you can prove that these feats have a supernatural history (like Johan being cursed or anything), these will just be seen as Social Influencing and an unrealistic form of it. I know it sounds crazy, but I have already tried my luck with another character who has had similar stuff.

We have Gru as an EG and we didn’t need crazy a** feats to get him there.

He has crazy feats of inventions and learning ability (rocket science is something which even adults would struggle with), but yes, I agree, they should only meet a single criterion (or two) of E.G. and do not suffice fully for that.

Johan's feats are psychologically explainable. You can say he learnt multiple languages and claim that he has higher human limits knowledge and say that he is absolutely too good with finding psychological weak points of people. Johan is not as crazy as people claim, he's quite literally good with emotional intelligence and psychology, and there are a good number of characters who would be considered realistic and still beat Johan in some of those stuff, even with Another Monster explanations.

 

[Arkenis]

His rocket was a flop and only could go several feet up

It implicatively went much higher, you're being overly skeptical for no good reason.

 

[Hixkaryana]

It implicatively went much higher, you're being overly skeptical for no good reason.

It was purposely shown as impressive yet imperfect, but let’s not extend on the subject.

 

[Beamgc]

1. "Manipulate anyone" - This is wrong. He manipulates people with psychological and emotional weaknesses and preys on those weaknesses. Like if he learnt about someone's sense of fear of law, he would pretend to be from law and attack their sense of urgency. Read Another Monster, most of his feats are psychologically explained.
2. "He could start a third world war if he wanted to" - This is nothing too extraordinary. Johan has the power to climb up the stairs in the world of politics. He can quite literally just manipulate countries and do it. The scale doesn't matter, the process employed to do it does.
3. "Being able to delete any evidence of his existence" - This is just exaggerated. All he did was get rid of all the people whom he thought could harm his existence by speaking ill of him.
4. "Highly intelligent detectives think he is a fiction created by a paranoid doctor" - Again, same thing. Detectives need proofs for their deductions, which Johan always cleared so he couldn't get caught.
5. In-verse, yes, Johan is the best in most of the stuff.

- no offense, but thats obvious. Knowing how to use psychological weaknesses and personal motivations against someone is exactly how manipulation works. Manipulating someone without these devices would just be mind control.
Finding those weaknesses, then finding the right moves to make someone your puppet is the hard part, which Johan manages to do on a massive scale and with such ease.

- same as before. He would manipulates everysingle event and people at time to put himself in a position of power, then make the world destroy itself. Thats exactly what makes this feat nothing short of extraordinary and unrealistic. I can't imagine humans being capable of that, unless they can read others minds and predict the future.

- No, Tenmma doesn't even try to prove he's innocent at first, because there's no way he can prove that when the culprit manages to hide his existence so well not even the police consider him to be real. it takes far more than a genius to erase your traces, while they kill a whole citiy, make children kill themselves, manipulate whole underworld factions, manipulate serial killers etc. Only people Johan wanted to know about his existence would know, either because he wanted to torment them or because he didn't care because he would kill them later.

-same as before. The police had no proof Johan even existed, much less was guilty.

 

[Arkenis]

- same as before. He would manipulates everysingle event and people at time to put himself in a position of power, then make the world destroy itself. Thats exactly what makes this feat nothing short of extraordinary and unrealistic. I can't imagine humans being capable of that, unless they can read others minds and predict the future.

Is it said he would manipulate every single event? To start a war you wouldn't need to manipulate many people, just those in power.

 

[Beamgc]

Is it said he would manipulate every single event? To start a war you wouldn't need to manipulate many people, just those in power.

That's what he does throughout the anime. And how do you reach those people?

 

[Arkenis]

That's what he does throughout the anime. And how do you reach those people?

Manipulating numerous people isn't hard, manipulating numerous events through the manipulation of people isn't hard. Which is why I ask if its every event, though I guess I should have been clear, is it that he alone is manipulating each event and not that he manipulates five or ten people and then they go on to do things beneficial to him within certain events.

 

[Beamgc]

Manipulating numerous people isn't hard, manipulating numerous events through the manipulation of people isn't hard.

He convinces anyone to commit atrocities for him, kill themselves or venerate him as god with just a few minutes of conversation. Yes, anyone - When he arrived at an orphanage (which is not just an orphanage, but an institution that carried out experiments on children, led by psychologists and military personnel) he was quickly drugged and locked up, because he held the words that could destroy any person. Until eventually he becomes resistant to such drugs and convinces everyone in the orphanage, including the leaders, to kill each other.

He always convinces everyone around him to play his game and everything happens according to his plan throught the entire show, except the finale.

Psychopaths can manipulate you if they discover your fears or spend a lot of time with you, but not after talking or observing you for just a few minutes.

There is no human capable of being so effective at this skill, to the point they can not only control familiar people, but other people from any ideologies, take down entire criminal groups and factions or lead an entire city into chaos with just words alone.

is it that he alone is manipulating each event and not that he manipulates five or ten people and then they go on to do things beneficial to him within certain events.

he very accurately predicts everyone steps and with inteligence alone he set the events to his favor by convincing everyone to play his games. He is like John Kramer, joker, etc ( Personally I think even these characters should be rated above Genius level, maybe at 'least Genius' seems about right, but that's another matter)

 

[Arkenis]

He convinces anyone to commit atrocities for him, kill themselves or venerate him as god with just a few minutes of conversation. Yes, anyone - When he arrived at an orphanage (which is not just an orphanage, but an institution that carried out experiments on children, led by psychologists and military personnel) he was quickly drugged and locked up, because he held the words that could destroy any person. Until eventually he becomes resistant to such drugs and convinces everyone in the orphanage, including the leaders, to kill each other.

He always convinces everyone around him to play his game and everything happens according to his plan throught the entire show, except the finale.

Psychopaths can manipulate you if they discover your fears or spend a lot of time with you, but not after talking or observing you for just a few minutes.

There is no human capable of being so effective at this skill, to the point they can not only control familiar people, but other people from any ideologies, take down entire criminal groups and factions or lead an entire city into chaos with just words alone.



he very accurately predicts everyone steps and with inteligence alone he set the events to his favor by convincing everyone to play his games. He is like John Kramer, joker, etc ( Personally I think even these characters should be rated above Genius level, maybe at 'least Genius' seems about right, but that's another matter)

This all sounds cool but none of it is eg. We have no possible way of knowing if there are humans like this or not, its irrelevant also since the actions he's doing are that of a genius, just because he's doing it to a lot of people doesn't make it any more impressive, just because he did to military personnel or psychologists doesn't make it above genius. The guy is just incredibly intelligent at manipulating emotions of humans. EG just isn't for these types of feats but if I were to give one, manipulation of numerous people's emotions and getting them to commit suicide alone isn't going to qualify for the eg rating. Someone like Aizen has EG and has his manipulation listed but it isn't the one thing that makes him eg.

 

[Beamgc]

This all sounds cool but none of it is eg. We have no possible way of knowing if there are humans like this or not, its irrelevant also since the actions he's doing are that of a genius, just because he's doing it to a lot of people doesn't make it any more impressive, just because he did to military personnel or psychologists doesn't make it above genius. The guy is just incredibly intelligent at manipulating emotions of humans. EG just isn't for these types of feats but if I were to give one, manipulation of numerous people's emotions and getting them to commit suicide alone isn't going to qualify for the eg rating. Someone like Aizen has EG and has his manipulation listed but it isn't the one thing that makes him eg.

So some characters classified with e.g should be evaluated. Characters like Yujiro are classified as e.g in because they are experts at various subjects and with more expertise than talented people(just like Johan) and are capable of learning martial arts skills just by observing them once (in which I can do your same logic, since there is no way to prove people like this don't exist in the world).

Looking at johan profile, the description there is not something that is within the parameters of just a genius.
The chances of someone like this living in the dark are low, because with so much expertise this person should naturally be famous. But many things that Johan does are physically impossible, such as perfectly hiding his existence from the police, while committing atrocities on a massive scale throughout Germany Or Instinctively knowing all the weaknesses and fears from people around him to the point of screwing their minds with just a few words.

edit: These are the descriptions for e.g:

Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits.

Johan literally meets all the criteria from the description on his profile alone.

 

[Arkenis]

So some characters classified with e.g should be evaluated. Characters like Yujiro are classified as e.g in because they are experts at various subjects and with more expertise than talented people(just like Johan) and are capable of learning martial arts skills just by observing them once (in which I can do your same logic, since there is no way to prove people like this don't exist in the world).

Yeah true, but idk why Yujiro would, he meets a requirement to a great degree.

The chances of someone like this living in the dark are low, because with so much expertise this person should naturally be famous. But many things that Johan does are physically impossible, such as perfectly hiding his existence from the police, while committing atrocities on a massive scale throughout Germany Or Instinctively knowing all the weaknesses and fears from people around him to the point of screwing their minds with just a few words.

Why would they be famous when your example Johan literally isn't famous, he specifically goes out his way to be unknown, why wouldn't an irl Johan do so too?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Yeah true, but idk why Yujiro would, he meets a requirement to a great degree.

Bro be called the devil by people who just look at him

Why would they be famous when your example Johan literally isn't famous, he specifically goes out his way to be unknown, why wouldn't an irl Johan do so too?

I mean the ending?

 

[Beamgc]

Why would they be famous when your example Johan literally isn't famous, he specifically goes out his way to be unknown, why wouldn't an irl Johan do so too?

I wasn't talking specifically about Johan, but someone with the same intelligence

 

[Nierre]

Read Another Monster should give you more feats.

is another monster a sequel?