Is it valid to use the Special Theory of Relativity (E = mc^2) for a calculation?

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

I made a calculatio for one final feat in a series of feats I've been trying to quantify lately. Is the special theory of relativity valid for a size change resulting from the absorbing of an energy attack? I'm concerned the numbers are too absurd.

 

[DontTalk]

In principal using the theory of relativity for calcs is fine (when it comes to high speed stuff it is actually by far preferable), but in this case I wouldn´t say so.

Creating matter from energy should only be assumed if it is clear that it was meant to work that way. Things like creating stuff from nothing, or in this case growing is often not meant to be connected to this mechanism and (as you noticed) practically always results in outlandish results.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with DontTalk. Only use energy to matter conversion results when the process is explicitly stated to work this way, and there are no contradictions involved.

 

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

What about the fact that the Crackler was stated to be made of pure electromagnetic energy taken physical form? Would it apply then?

 

[DontTalk]

What about the fact that the Crackler was stated to be made of pure electromagnetic energy taken physical form? Would it apply then?

I would have my doubts about it. In this case I would even have more doubts since he may not even be made from matter in the usual way, but just some energy body.

 

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

We know he has mass, though. He was affected by Earth's gravity when Jr. tossed him, he was able to pick up objects, and he was able to pin down a monster weighing tens of thousands of tons.

 

[DontTalk]

You don't need mass to to be affected by gravity.

Well, not really the most important point. The energy moster that grows bigger by consuming energy is nothing all to uncommen. I would not simply assume mass-energy conversion to be used if not really made clear.

 

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

But electromagnetic energy is light. Normally, it would take a massive gravitational force such as that from a black hole to affect light significantly.

Also, his footsteps have the same "heavy footstep" sound effect as other kaiju in the series, further implying he has weight.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, as said that wasn´t really the main point, what we need solid proof on is that it really converts energy into mass like that.

I mean everyone that has the ability to make plants grow in a way does the same (use his energy to make them grow bigger), but I would also not assume that in such a case there was mass-energy-conversion.

 

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

Here , Craven states that the Crackler is "pure electromagnetic energy." Here , Elsie states that the Crackler is a "humanoid electromagnetic field." In this scene, the scientists surmise that the Crackler was created from a massive electrical discharge resulting from theta brain wave amplification, energy they assumed dissipated into the atmosphere but then realized was being directed by Walker's subconscious.

In addition, the Crackler was able to smash buildings apart and jump from the edge of a stadium to the ground below, showing that it has the properties of a physical object. Zilla Jr. also tripped the Crackler, and the fall shattered the concrete under the Crackler, showing that the Crackler has a significant amount of mass. The fact that the Crackler was able to punch and physically interact with Zilla Jr. at all already shows that the Crackler has physical mass because electromagnetic fields can't affect creatures like this.

There are several characters explaining and confirming that the Crackler is made of electromagnetic energy, and there are multiple showings proving that the Crackler is indeed a physical object. No, none of the characters explicitly say anything about energy-to-mass conversion, but that's what we see happen, and we do hear Nick say that the Crackler is "absorbing the energy from his breath."

I think it goes without saying that this isn't the same as photosynthesis allowing a plant to grow, which is a very complicated process involving more than just sunlight.

 

[DontTalk]

If its is pure electromagnetic energy, then it can not have mass (in the common sense of the word). Electromagnetic energy (as in photons) have no restmass, while matter has.

There are further things that point towards it not having mass in common sense, like for example the fact that they could simply push it around with electromagnetic fields, that it could simply flicker in and out of existence (something mass usually avoids) and that it disappearing at the end didn´t explode the whole continent.

It was also originally created by human energy sources (the brainwave amplifier thingy). By looking at the energy it would need to have at the beginning it would have had to be charged with the electricity produced by the whole of humanity over the course about a million years or more. They did that in two weeks or something, right?

Why it then appears to have mass and is tangible I don't know, most likely the concept of lolfiction. (as in: fiction doesn't particulary care about scientific incorrect depiction)

In the end over the whole episode relativity, mass-energy-conversion or anything similar was never mentioned or even strongly implied, so no I don't think that is legitimate in any way.

 

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

By your logic, though, the Crackler shouldn't have been able to interact with anything. It's as you said, the science behind this creature is entirely fictional, but that applies to almost everything in this Wiki. Funnily enough, I just argued over in ScrewAttack Forums that logic shouldn't be completely disregarded when analyzing characters, but at the same time there has to be some leniency with fiction. At least that's what I keep being told, so why is it different now?

When the Crackler was pushed off Zilla Jr., HEAT had to channel energy from multiple guns into a large conductor, and it involved using energy of reverse polarity. The plan was specifically designed to exploit the Crackler's EM nature. They do that a lot.

The Crackler flickering can be explained by its energy dissipating and scattering due to not being directed by Walker's subconscious (which was the point of angering him).

As for the Crackler not creating a continent-busting explosion, that could also be explained by its energy scattering without being volatile. That same argument, though, could be used for downgrading Heisei Godzilla to Planet or even Continent Level considering his meltdown explosion would have been nowhere near Solar System Level according to the simulation, but everyone here accepts him as Solar System+ because of one outlier that can also be disregarded with real-world physics. Why is that fair?

The episode repeatedly states that the Crackler was created from energy, and there's a lot of evidence to suggest it has mass. It's heavily implied that energy was converted to mass (otherwise the fight wouldn't have been possible). Does none of that matter simply because no one specifically mentioned the Special Theory of Relativity? Is it a requirement for all feats involving energy-to-mass conversion that the dialogue specifically say this? It shows the Crackler growing in size and strength after being stated to absorb energy. What more evidence does it need?

 

[DontTalk]

Basically yes, as antvasima already mentioned at the beginning of this thread, it needs to be specifically mentioned.

And that much energy can not simply dissipate without any damage, we talk about energy that when released would destoy a continent. Not to mention that you kinda assume that when he doesn´t concentrate the complicated process of mass-energy-conversion reverses in a complicated way so that the being suddenly turns into nothing. Without anything of that being mentioned hard to believe.

I will furthermore repeat myself and say that a being out of pure electromagnetic energy has no mass in common sense. If it has mass, then it isn't made from pure electromagnetic energy.

Energy beings in fiction are also not uncommen and that they can somehow interact with the world as usual is accepted, because that just is how stuff works in fiction.

And, repeating myself again, the original form of that thing had more energy than it could have absorbed by any method. So you add a further assumption of an energy source existing that is generates millions of times more energy than energy avaiable to that point.

So either the authors her have large holes in their plot and don't bother specifing anything about the mechanisms in any way or they just made some energy being based on the subconcious of someone without any thoughts about the specifics.

I think it is likely that latter.

 

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

OK, I think I have something.

(1) In the episode, at 4:30 (on mobile, can't link), we see the Crackler's foot crush a bus.

(2) The scientists state that a massive electrical discharge resulted from a theta wave amplification process, a fictional process that already has no equivalent in the real world. It wouldn't be the first time a fictional process resulted in unrealistically huge amounts of energy.

(3) The Crackler's energy dissipating without a trace is actually a plot point. It's also said that the energy would have gone into the atmosphere if not directed by Walker's subconscious. So no, it doesn't just vanish into nothing.

More than likely, the Crackler is less a literal EM field and more an object with a particularly strong electromagnetic affinity due to having been created directly from EM waves (which technically do have mass collectively), at least going by the episode's sci-fi logic. Going by the show's logic and consistent showings, there's really no way to reasonably argue that the Crackler has no mass.

 

[DontTalk]

sigh... really we are speculating here around the way fictional progresses may be supposed to work. One way or the other physics in the common way has to be ignored. We can now argue about which of the progresses is the one ignoring physics and what the authors intent was forever, but I really am not in the mood for that.

So I will say it again, if it isn't stated it should not be assumed to be mass-energy conversion.

So if that isn't done (which it isn't) then this doesn't fly.

end from my side.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

DontTalk makes sense. Fiction ignores physics in most cases unless they want to highlight something. Unless stated we shouldn't use something like energy to mass conversion.

 

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

Then what else could it be? It's very heavily implied to be the case when Nick says the Crackler is absorbing energy as we see it grow in size and mass (so it is almost stated with plenty of evidence to back it up). The fact that the Crackler can stand still without accelerating confirms it has rest mass.

If a fictional feat not fully complying with real-world physics is enough to render a feat invalid, then a lot of Godzillas will have to receive serious downgrades.

 

[Antvasima]

As DontTalk said, given how likely vastly exaggerated values we would end up with, unless mass-energy conversion is explicitly stated, we cannot assume that a process in fiction works that way. Especially not if nothing else from the character implies this kind of massive scale. Please stop pestering him about it. I am going to close this thread now, as it is going in circles.