Is Ganondorfs High 5-A feat legit?

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren. Not entirely. In the first Zelda, the only way Link could stand a chance against Ganon was gathering all of the shards of the Triforce of Wisdom. Yuga absorbing the ToP and later the ToW was a severe power boost as well.

Like I said, there is a benefit to obtaining each piece, but not something that makes the user seemingly almighty in comparison to the rest of the verse's magic.

For example, Ganon is invincible unless you use the Silver Arrow to kill him.

Even the Triforce of Power, the strongest individual piece (obviously), can't stand up to the might of the Silver Arrow; which isn't another piece of the Triforce.

Which goes to show that other magical items in the verse can be greater than the individual Triforce pieces.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ganon had to be weakened before the Silver Arrow was used. Both, in Classic and in ALTTP. Silver/Light Arrows are treated as almost as much of a maguffin as the Master Sword.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Ganon had to be weakened before the Silver Arrow was used. Both, in Classic and in ALTTP. Silver/Light Arrows are treated as almost as much of a maguffin as the Master Sword.

Like being weakened through with the White and Golden Sword respectively? He was still unkillable in the game despite this. So I don't see how it is important?

Also, Ganon had the full Triforce in ALTTP, which seemingly makes the strength of the Silver Arrows even more impressive. And if Silver Arrows, an object of magical power not directly connected to the Golden Goddesses can be shown to be stronger than the pieces of the Triforce, then I see no reason why the Majora's Mask couldn't be either, especially if it has shown better feats.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Silver Areows are given by the Great Fairies, who are emissaries of the goddesses.

 

[Warren_Valion]

To be fair, I said directly connected.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Couldn't the reason for her fatness being because she involuntarily absorbed Ganon's magic, with which she then upgrades Arrows to Silver ones and the MS into the Golden Sword? I mean, she's extremely close to Ganon and TF, and there must be reason why she's capable of handling Link the two most powerful items of the verse sans TF itself. Also, Japanese only says that Ganon's magic is the reason she's fat, but it's not described as "evil", which may imply she wasn't cursed. "My being just a wee bit chubby is because of Ganon's magical power, so be sure to do away with him."

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Nah. I don't really agree with this wiki's opinions on certain verses a lot.

The Mask was a demon entity that canonically took the power of a deity, a god, to obliterate. To say it can't be comparable or close to the Triforce when it's literally the Demise to Fierce Deity's Hylia is absurd to me.

This being said, the individual pieces in NO way have a quantifiable boost we can accurately rate. The series is vague and full of translation errors that get blown out of proportion. It's made abundantly clear that the Triforce of Wisdom ain't nothing compared to Ganon, as the Zelda who possesed them in each game it appeared with her got easily subdued by Ganon. They were not made equally, and trying to scale Ganon to Majora makes no sense as it's an artifact possessed by a demon completely seperate from the Triforce, who also happened to show the best feat of power the verse had to offer.

WoG doesn't state that the Triforce holders are untouchable amongst the other characters in the series, and nothing I've seen even touches upom comparing Ganon to Majora; It's literally a fan-made assumption that his little substance behind it other than "I have the Triforce of Power which means I inhabit the obviously hyperbolic omnipotent power of the Trifroce which should make me suddenly stronger than one of the strongest guys in the series JUST because of the ignorant claim of it being 'just a voodoo mask,' even when said 'mask' took a legit deity to defeat it, you know, divine intervention".

Ganon has been slain by less than the Maater Sword, and this "invulnerability" has never been officially stated anywhere, to my knowledge. Feel free to prove me wrong though, with the guidebooks or Historia that was written by the same people who can't decide where their own games are placed on the timeline THEY created.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Couldn't the reason for her fatness being because she involuntarily absorbed Ganon's magic, with which she then upgrades Arrows to Silver ones and the MS into the Golden Sword? I mean, she's extremely close to Ganon and TF, and there must be reason why she's capable of handling Link the two most powerful items of the verse sans TF itself. Also, Japanese only says that Ganon's magic is the reason she's fat, but it's not described as "evil", which may imply she wasn't cursed. "My being just a wee bit chubby is because of Ganon's magical power, so be sure to do away with him."

She's known as The Cursed Fairy, dude.

From Zelda Wiki:

Cursed Fairy

The Cursed Fairy,[8] also known as the Fat Fairy,[citation needed] can be found in the Mysterious Pond within the Pyramid of Power in the Dark World. To gain access to her hidden fountain, Link must use the Super Bomb to blow a hole in the lower levels of the Pyramid. She will grant Link the Silver Arrows required to defeat Gano, and will also power up the Tempered Sword into the Golden Sword. The Cursed Fairy blames her appearance on a curse put on her by Ganon's magic.[9]

 

[TriforcePower1]

Yeah, because NoA seems to imply that she had been cursed. She's never stated to actually be cursed though.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yeah, because NoA seems to imply that she had been cursed. She's never stated to actually be cursed though.

Ganon being the reason for her change in appearance and asking Link to do away with him implies she's cursed with something she doesn't want.

And it's too "headcanony" to presume that she isn't.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@cal, I'm in support for 5-A Ganondorf, because it shows that he is more than strong enough to wreck the world and would support being able to change night to day and so on. But I kinda wish that in Ocarina or Wind Waker there would have been a similar feat as to Chrono Trigger's 5-A feat.

Also be on the look out for a thread discussing how Ocarina as great on a game as it is, just was not made to it's full potential.

And for another to do 5-A LoZ, I can finally match-ups with Crono and Magus against Link and Ganondorf.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Link (Breath of the Wild) and Monk Maz Koshia are 5-A. You can do some match ups with them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Foxthefox. I see your point, but aside from one of the mangas, nothing besides the name says that Fierce Deity is anything but a name, and nothing at all implies that Majora's Mask is a deity in and of itself. A demon never even possessed the mask, as the game itself says that the mask was made by some dark tribe. Only time Ganon was defeated by something that wasn't the Master Sword or Silver/Light Arrows was in the Oracle games, where Ganondorf was weakened to heck and back, as well as Four Swords Adventures, but the Master Sword was pretty much replaced with the Four Sword in that game and Ganon didn't have the ToP. Classic Zelda is well before a large part of the lore was introduced and even then it required the Silver Arrows to put him down.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I thought BotW Link was getting downgraded

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Also I don't think Link at beginning of Ocarina and Wind Waker could be called 6-B

 

[TriforcePower1]

Cal, minor correction, MM was never stated to be created by a tribe, only "used" by said tribe. And I really want to explain the whole headcanon I have, but I'll try to restrain myself ovo

@Hagane

Until Azzy does the Downgrade thread, they're going to remain there. And even if he does, there's a chance of it getting rejected.

And yes, start game Link is always 6-B.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

So you're saying that WW Lnk's Grandma is 6-B too for being able to take hugs from him? On Outset Island he was mostly viewed as normal kid and he was able to be hurt by Orca who I can guesstimate to be 9-B to 8-C, or is his 6-B too? I don't know. Also he sort of started practicing sword skills, so he could not have been all of a sudden 6-B. I'm simply comparing Link to Goku and Yusuke, both characters got as strong as they are now through years of grit and training, Link didn't, at least at the start of the game. But what do you say?

 

[TriforcePower1]

I mean, even if Link actually was that strong, he wouldn't do anything that may hurt his grandma. Hyrule Soldiers and knights are 6-B in general (go check Cal's wall, I wrote the reasoning on the OP some time ago), and if Orca is a member of said family (remember that Hylian knights, not too sure about general soldiers, all come from the same family and probably the reason they're that strong is hereditary from SS Link who's confirmed to be the ancestor of said family), he would be 6-B too (even though much lower than actual knights via being old). If he isn't, I think it's just the game being inconsistent. What I can tell you is that first boss is 6-B and that nearly every Link is from the family of said knights.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@Triforce, Well I matched up Breath of the Wild Link with Crono already along with matching Crono against the Shredder so maybe check them out if you're interested

Also who is more worthy of the title "Hero of Time"? Crono or Link? (Personal opinion is the former)

 

[Fireblast966]

So looking at this again, if I understand correctly the main arguement for Ganon's downgrade seems to be that he could have maybe used a form of time manipulation similar to the sun song instead of telekinesis to cause the Endless Night/Forsaken Fortress night, right?

My arguement was that Ganon never displayed any time related abilities(looking at FSA eternal winter time stop, it was actually Vaati who caused it not Ganon. This one is a different Ganon anyway so it wouldn't hurt my case: https://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Frozen_Hyrule_(location). Correct me if I am wrong, I haven't played FSA.) So time manipulation is just speculation with no evidence and probably the weakest of the three possibilities (telekinesis, time manipulation, simply magic).

Now what supports this, is the statement of the composers of the sun songs actually saying Ganondorf tried to steal their song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhV7PJOgvMY

If Ganondorf actually had that power already as suggested by those who want to downgrade him, why would he feel the need to steal it? You could argue that the Triforce of Power could have given him that power of the sun song but that in itself is also huge speculation with no evidence. The only thing that we know for sure what the ToP grants, is heightened stats to an unknown degree and maybe immortality. The rest could have been Ganon's original power just powered up by the triforce. Therefor I suggest that we rule out time manipulation.

Ganon had used telekinesis more than once:

1) Ocarina of Time: His giant floating castle+ levitating princess zelda's crystal. https://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/File:Bridge_to_Ganon%27s_Castle.png

2) Both Ganon and Zant(who gets all his powers from Ganon btw) throwing away Midna: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDA7RNjeZ10

3) Him levitating could also be considered a form of tele.

Although him using tele on a planetary level is also a little iffy, simply casue he did this feat off-screen and it would be weird for Ganon to rotate the planet with TK everytime Link approaches the Forsaken Fortress.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I tend to think of Ganondorf levitateing as something similar of Dragon Ball's buku jutsu. But what tier woould he be for levitating his own castle?

 

[Fireblast966]

Now there is also the possibility that Ganon is simply rotating the planet with a spell, probably the simplest solution and the possibility I support the most. The King of Red Lion states that it was Ganon's curse/magic that caused this so we actually have some although vague evidence for this unlike with telekinesis or time manipulation. But if that is the case, his high 5-A rating shouldn't be a problem since his powers still affected the planet, and magic feats scale to his stats.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Well I'd be okay for either 5-A or High 5-A for Ganondorf, I mean High 6-A seems to not make sense considering how valued thr Tri-Force is. (If the downgrades to go through though, I'm rooting for at most 5-A so I can do match-ups with Crono and Magus.)

 

[Fireblast966]

I tend to think of Ganondorf levitateing as something similar of Dragon Ball's buku jutsu. But what tier woould he be for levitating his own castle?

I dunno, lifting a castle is maybe building or mountain level? I think this site uses calcs to tier feats but I am unsure of how much that feat alone could be tiered.

 

[TriforcePower1]

That was already calculated. It's somewhere in tier 7.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

bump

 

[Fireblast966]

Does the OP still have doubts that need to be cleared? If not, I feel like moving on from this thread. I made my point with my previous two posts that this feat should remain legit.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@Fireblast, Although didn't you also say that the feat was iffy?

 

[Fireblast966]

I said Ganondorf using telekinesis was iffy(although better than assuming time manipulation) and then followed up that he likely just used his magic to do the feat and explained my reasoning. Magic would still scale to his stats and make him high 5A.

 

[Seol404]

I always assumed it was just the game forcing you to go through the Foresaken Fortress at night

 

[Fireblast966]

The endless night was definitely canon(with all the cutscenes and mentions of it from the king of red lion) and the Foresaken Fortress thing is similar in nature as the endless night so it should happen in canon as well.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

You know in another game that I love there is a character similar to Ganondorf however his magic only scales up to his Mom who is at 5-A

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

bump

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I will say that a Triforce of Piece should be easily be: At least 5-B, likely 5-A or just 5-A as superior to Majora casual feat while attached to an host and comparable to Calamity Ganon 5-A feat.

I'd go my this statement

 

[TriforcePower1]

Cal already proved it can't be time manipulation, so this can probably be closed already.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

THERE GOES MY ONE TICKET TO A HEROES OF TIME MATCH-UP AND A MAGUS VS GANONDORF MATCH-UP!!!!!

And I don' think there could be the chance that Chrono Trigger characters will get upgraded to High 5-A!!!

 

[TriforcePower1]

That's assuming AP even matters when fighting Ganon ovo

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

With what you said it makes me think that maybe it's just that one spell that is High 5-A and not simply Ganondorf's physical strength just like how Lina Inverse is physically 9-B but 6 something with the Dragon Slave.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I'd rank him 5-A, High 5-A with eternal night spell

 

[Warren_Valion]

What's the proof that the game becoming night when you near the Forsaken Fortress isn't a game mechanic?

Isn't that the least presumptuous assumption. A similar thing happened in Ocarina of Time when you neared Castle Town after accruing all three Spiritual Stones, a rainstorm would suddenly pop up to set the mood. Another similar thing happened in Twilight Princess when you enter Hyrule Castle. No matter what the weather is or what time of day it is, it always becomes a rainy morning when you near the Castle.

Why do we assume it is a spell and not just Nintendo setting up an atmosphere?