Is Ganondorfs High 5-A feat legit?

[Dust_Collector]

Destroy the world =/= destroy the planet. We can't just slap on a 5-B rating based on a vague and generic statement.

 

[Fireblast966]

"This legendary Pokémon can scorch the world with fire. It helps those who want to build a world of truth."

"When Reshiram's tail flares, the heat energy moves the atmosphere and changes the world's weather."

Reshiram got it's planet class AP through those descriptions which write how he is burning the the world.

 

[Dust_Collector]

No, Reshiram got its 5-B rating via a scaling chain that ultimately scales it to the likes of Mewtwo. The scorching the world with fire stuff is just something extra to add onto it's AP justifications.

Plus those statements came from a highly advanced encyclopedia created by many Pokémon experts with years of research, Calamity Ganons statements comes from a king who is just hyping up his power.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Can we talk about the High 5-A feat? Maybe it's valid and we don't need to discuss Calamity's feat.

 

[Fireblast966]

No, Reshiram got its 5-B rating via a scaling chain that ultimately scales it to the likes of Mewtwo. The scorching the world with fire stuff is just something extra to add onto it's AP justifications.
Plus those statements came from a highly advanced encyclopedia created by many Pokémon experts with years of research, Calamity Ganons statements comes from a king who is just hyping up his power.

Reshiram scales from Kyurem who scales to Genesect. But why does Kyurem scale to Genesect? As far as I know Team Plasma used Kyurem not Genesect so Kyurem get's his AP? As far as I know Genesect wasn't used because he was an abandoned project with N stopping Team Plasma from it's developement. Why wouldn't they use Genesect otherwise even with Kyurem? Not to mention it might not be the same Genesect from the movie so we don't know for sure.Everything here is vague.

In fact there are a lot of characters on this site that got their AP through vague descriptions and reasons and this is definitely one of them. I am sorry for being off topic: I will leave it at that.

Edit: Also the king personally saw calamity ganon's power. I don't think it's just "hype" considering Zelda also implied something similar. Not to mention Reshiram was sealed for decades in the white stone, how are experts able to gauge it's power other than lore passed down from ancestors? Pokemon is my favorite franchise but this all just...not accurate.


@TriforcePower1 : My biggest concern is, how did Ganon rotate the planet? As long as we don't know, I am not sure if this feat can be legit.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Azathot

Welp, I haven't seen a thing about BOTW (other than the stuff on Composite Link's profile), so can't really say anything about that.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

You know the same thing could be stated about Lavos with destroying the world but that beast is in simply at 5-B

 

[Dark649]

It's possible to destroy the world with little time by causing many High 6-A attacks.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Like Triforce said, we should come to a definitive conclusion on the High 5-A stuff first before discussing any kind of High 6-A or 5-B ratings.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I'd personally try a 5-A rating, I mean it seems like a middle ground that guarantees that the characters are very strong but at the most reasonable level. And is also mean I can do a match up to see who's the real Hero of time.

 

[Dust_Collector]

But there would be no reason for a 5-A rating. If this downgrade go's through there are no 5-A feats to scale from since Azzy pointed out that Calamity Ganon doesn't move the Blood Moon.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bump

 

[Fireblast966]

So looking into this a lot more I think I will side with Triforce arguement to a certain extend that time maniplation is unlikely for this feat. He probably used either

1) Telekinesis

2) Just a spell that rotates the planet(supported by Red Lion King's words about the endless night, although it's not clear since he is assuming as well and doesn't know what's going on)

Sadly it isn't explicitly said that Ganon used telekinesis which is why I had doubts about this feat too but

Ganon has never been shown to have time related abilities, however he has shown consistent use of telekinesis and spell castings. You can argue the above 2 to be vague but those possibilities are honestly a lot more likely than time manipulation. There are characters in the Zeldaverse who have shown the ability to manipulate time...Ganondorf is not one of them and until he shows more, consistent time related powers, time manipulation should be classified as speculation at this point.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ganon has time stopped before in FSA. Though he never sped it up, reversed it, etc.

 

[TriforcePower1]

There are also dark clouds that are the cause of the time stop. Clouds that aren't present here, which makes it even more likely for it to not be time stop.

 

[Amexim]

Limited Time manipulation via a barrier that keeps time eternally night whenever Link shows up to his place is a far less grand assumption that PLANETARY TK.

 

[TriforcePower1]

It remains night everywhere in the Great Sea. Ganon probably affected the entire world to do this feat.

 

[Fireblast966]

It really isn't. Majora has moved the world destroying moon via telekinesis. Ganondorf has the ToP made by the gods, while Majoras power and creator is unknown but very likely to be below the golden goddesses he shouldn't be that much below Majora, assuming even he is weaker than him.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Mentioning Majora is useless when Calamity did a similar feat.

 

[Fireblast966]

I thought Calamitiy feat was disproven before? Also @The real cal howard When has he time stopped? I looked up FSA Ganon but none of his battles has time stop as far a I know.

 

[Amexim]

Weaker =/= having different abilities. What, we scale hax now? If Ganon has TK, we probably need more direct evidence of it. Especially if we have to be find specific for things like what a multiplier does, or if we don't scale Vice Shout even though it makes sense. I bring those up, because those topics and similar things are heavily scrutinized and drilled for evidence to find the most accuracy. I don't think it's correct procedure, nor fair, for powers to just be given out without explicit evidence, let alone used to bump a verse up like this.

 

[Amexim]

And if we're going to forgo only accepting explicit evidence, one must present a case that makes the implicit evidence viable, or the implicit evidence must be extremely valid.

 

[Fireblast966]

Weaker =/= having different abilities. What, we scale hax now? If Ganon has TK, we probably need more direct evidence of it. Especially if we have to be find specific for things like what a multiplier does, or if we don't scale Vice Shout even though it makes sense. I bring those up, because those topics and similar things are heavily scrutinized and drilled for evidence to find the most accuracy. I don't think it's correct procedure, nor fair, for powers to just be given out without explicit evidence, let alone used to bump a verse up like this.

I am just gonna say this but a lot of characters on this site have their AP for very vague reasons(like Tifa being 4-B just because she contributed to Sephiroth's defeat, Kyurem was just assumed, without any evidence, to be superior to Genesect, a bunch of characters chain scaling their AP even though this is A>B>C logic and faulty ect....).

Also I agree with you to certain extend but sometimes you just have to assume something if you want to order s.o in a tier since there is no clear evidence. Maybe the "likely" or "possibly" X-B" tier could help with this. In this case, we do not have hard evidence for Ganon's feat being either time manipulation, tele, or spell casting.

Also if you want telekinesis feat.

-floating castle

- Zant who had Ganon's power used tele all the time to throw Midna around, also when he possessed Zelda, he threw Midna away via tele

- lifted Zelda's crystal

So yeah he used telekinesis before just not on planetary scale.

Also I am not saying Ganon has used tele 100% to manipulate the earth, just that he probably used tele(I admit not that likely) or just a spell to manipulate the endless night events.

Just stating possibilities here not gonna side with Ganon's current AP just yet. Time Manipulation should be ruled out though.

Ganon never had time related powers in the past so giving him time manipulation for this event when there are other possibilties is just pure speculation.

 

[Amexim]

A. Every example you tried to post of not having legit reasoning literally falls under what I outlined.

1. Kyurem has no reason to be weaker than Genesect, with the reasoning behind the assumption that he is being a part of precedent, a trend, a clear distinction lore and status wise— and all of these implications mean Kyurem has something, and barring the Keldeo movie, no Pokémon on Genesect's level or Keldeo's level (like Latias, the Regis, or Jirachi) should be comparable to it.

2. Tifa is able to damage Sephiroth, and she scales to Cloud because of that— explicit evidence with no inferences necessary.

3. Power scaling AP is actually valid and when it isn't, it's usually because of nuance within the situation.

Wasn't A Link Star Level or something via fighting someone who created a star?

If anything, the BASIC tenants of powerscaling that anyone worth their salt in this community would understand (no offense if you don't, just saying these are the basics) is more explainable and acceptable than the idea that he has TK.

B. To just rotate the Earth with telekinesis upon sensing link nearby— it sounds like a more convoluted way to alter the day to night— and sounds like it's a jump from him literally being able to alter time on a limited scale. Isn't Occam's Razor applicable— if not directly, then the principle of assuming unexplained things happen in the simplest way. It's like assuming Goku ran five times around someone he speed blitzed before punching bullet holes in them, instead of just doing the punching. Making up powers or facts or feats. But, since he has used TK before, it's less of a stretch.

Even still, don't rule out a time manip spell that gives him the ability to basically just do what he does in TK.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

In this case, we do not have hard evidence for Ganon's feat being either time manipulation, tele, or spell casting.

Except we do of the latter. It is constantly referred as simply a curse by the King of Red Lions and the descendant of the Great Fish, which fled (and it's the reason why Ganondorf did the curse in the first place).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It really isn't. Majora has moved the world destroying moon via telekinesis. Ganondorf has the ToP made by the gods, while Majoras power and creator is unknown but very likely to be below the golden goddesses he shouldn't be that much below Majora, assuming even he is weaker than him.

I have already demonstrated how Majora is superior to a single piece of the Triforce. Ganon does not scale to it.

 

[Fireblast966]

A. Every example you tried to post of not having legit reasoning literally falls under what I outlined.
1. Kyurem has no reason to be weaker than Genesect, with the reasoning behind the assumption that he is being a part of precedent, a trend, a clear distinction lore and status wise— and all of these implications mean Kyurem has something, and barring the Keldeo movie, no Pokémon on Genesect's level or Keldeo's level (like Latias, the Regis, or Jirachi) should be comparable to it.

2. Tifa is able to damage Sephiroth, and she scales to Cloud because of that— explicit evidence with no inferences necessary.

3. Power scaling AP is actually valid and when it isn't, it's usually because of nuance within the situation.

Wasn't A Link Star Level or something via fighting someone who created a star?

If anything, the BASIC tenants of powerscaling that anyone worth their salt in this community would understand (no offense if you don't, just saying these are the basics) is more explainable and acceptable than the idea that he has TK.

B. To just rotate the Earth with telekinesis upon sensing link nearby— it sounds like a more convoluted way to alter the day to night— and sounds like it's a jump from him literally being able to alter time on a limited scale. Isn't Occam's Razor applicable— if not directly, then the principle of assuming unexplained things happen in the simplest way. It's like assuming Goku ran five times around someone he speed blitzed before punching bullet holes in them, instead of just doing the punching. Making up powers or facts or feats. But, since he has used TK before, it's less of a stretch.

Even still, don't rule out a time manip spell that gives him the ability to basically just do what he does in TK.

1) I know that Pokemon is scaled through status and lore but this creates a contradiction. Genesect got it's AP fighting Mewtwo but lore and status wise, Mewtwo should be vastly superior to Genesect. There is also Pokemon Mystery Dungeon where Grovyle got it's low 2-C (not sure about this one but lets leave it at that) rating for fighting P-Dialga even though P-Dialga should be vastly superior. in terms of status and lore. Not to mention almost all legendaries have feats that surpass normal Pokemon's too (including Kyurem) so I am not sure why lore and status is super important when feats are much more reliable for legendaries at least. Also I am not sure Kyurem's lore and status >= Genesect's honestly those 2 don't seem really compareable.

2/3) Can't argue with that, although I personally don't think damaging someone automatically puts them on the same tier since it would imply they can hold their own against that person 1-on-1. For example I could probably damage an elephant when someone is helping me, but would that put me in the same tier as an elephant? But I will leave it at that.

Rest: Just gotta leave it at that. If I continue, a lot of arguements will repeat itself since a lot of things aren't clear to us. But I say telekinesis is iffy, I agree but it's still a possibility that we can't rule out.

 

[Amexim]

2/3) Being able to hurt me and being able to match me in strength ain't the same thing, otherwise, Bees are stronger than humans, and children are comparable to adults via biting. Damaging an elephant with your physical strikes to the point of making it say "ow" or flinch or feel the pain of a blow would probably mean you're in it's tier. In the same tier doesn't mean comparable.

But sure. You're right there, if he does have TK, but I think that's an assumption we should hold back on.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

What are we saying now?

Also for the arguement that the world will be destroyed if Ganondord wins. That's not really the case with Wind Waker at least, he's like Magus from Chrono Trigger, in which he plays the anti-villain to atone for his past mistakes and restore Hyrule under his authority, and we even get to know why he tried to take over Hyrule. Man why wasn't this in Ocarina, it would have made Ganondorf more relatable and liked more.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bump

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bump

 

[Dark649]

There could be nothing to discuss here, if the High 5-A and 5-A feats are not legit and they cannot be scale to Majora then you should call Howard to downgrade them to at least High 6-A, likely far higher.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Actually, Majora never bodied Link with the ToC (otherwise, Majora'd be High 5-A right now). He just haxxed him (or ambushed him). In fact, Link does that in turn when he harms Majora as Deku Link to get his Ocarina back. Plus, keep in mind that in terms of power, Young Link<<<<<<Adult Link. Ganondorf one-shots Young Link. There's also one more major factor that needs to be taken into play—-Young Link doesn't have the Master Sword. Finally, isn't the Triforce, even in pieces, superior to anything in Hyrule? Majora didn't come from Termina, but from Hyrule. And Ganondorf's magic should be >>>>>>> the magic of the dark tribe that created Majora's Mask.

I think that 5-B via scaling from Majora is appropriate and that Ganondorf is at the very least comparable to the mask, but I wouldn't put up a huge fight if you guys disagree.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I mean, we still haven't decided that the feat is not legit actually...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, OoT makes it very apparent that Ganon can't switch betweeen day and night in the way Link can, so the idea that Ganon did it via time manipulation is out. And the day/night...clock(?) changes when Ganon does the endless night feat.

 

[Dark649]

The other possible options are telekinesis and curse manipulation, also i doubt that Link used the ToC in Termina as he mainly used the masks on his journey.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Problem is, both of those options scale to his magical prowess, which in turn scales to his stats.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Why would the individual Triforce pieces be > than Majora? What states this?

The Triforce has always been treated like the Dragon Balls. You need to collect all of them to gain real power.

Not to say that the individual piece doesn't have their benefits, especially Ganondorf's, but I can recall nothing being said that each individual piece is > than anything else in the verse.


If Majora has the better feats, then the least required assumptions suggest that he is stronger than Ganondorf.

Assuming that the High 5-A feats are illegitimate, of course.

 

[Casban2000]

There could be nothing to discuss here, if the High 5-A and 5-A feats are not legit and they cannot be scale to Majora then you should call Howard to downgrade them to at least High 6-A, likely far higher.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Warren. Not entirely. In the first Zelda, the only way Link could stand a chance against Ganon was gathering all of the shards of the Triforce of Wisdom. Yuga absorbing the ToP and later the ToW was a severe power boost as well.