Is Arrowverse High 1-C? Let's Find Out.

[Slinghtt]

I agree w

 

[Phoenks]

I don't think this qualifies for qualitative superiority standards. Need proof these are separate axes that each extend out infinitely, and are actually quantifiable in some way.

Based on it being described as an "endless void," I don't think it is.

 

[ByArrow]

I don't think this qualifies for qualitative superiority standards. Need proof these are separate axes that each extend out infinitely, and are actually quantifiable in some way.

Based on it being described as an "endless void," I don't think it is.

Can you prove that the dimensions are significant in size? As in, it extends infinitely through all 10 dimensions?

Every existence multiplied by possibility. And spread out before space and time in infinite measure. -Mar Novu

This statement shows that the dimensions are infinite.

I can see High 1-C if those statements refer to the Speed Force.

The Speed Force basically is motion. Wherever something moves/has kinetic energy, that's the Speed Force existing. It's a 'elemental part' of all universes, and also an extra-dimensional force, allowing Speedsters to take shelter from time paradoxes or travel across time.

For example, when Savitar was going to be erased from history due to his moment of creation ceasing to exist, he planned to use the Speed Force and a time portal to survive the paradox by scattering himself across every moment of space-time in universe-1.

The realm that Barry and Jay go to (which can be destroyed by a nuke) is kind of just for appearances and not even the fundamental aspect of the Speed Force, yet even that allows Speedsters to exist across the multiverse.

Even when the multiverse was destroyed, Oliver and Barry successfully entered the Speed Force because Oliver was in-tune with the multiverse, including the Speed Force.

• BARRY: We can get to both through the Speed Force, but I can't get into the Speed Force right now. It's probably because there's no multiverse left, but you said you're in tune with the multiverse. Does that include the Speed Force?

And Oliver, who has multiversal feats of range, said he has no idea where to start when looking through the Speed Force.

• OLIVER: We'll be consumed by anti-matter. I can buy you time, Barry, but you need to get to each of us. I mean, the Speed Force is infinite. I could never know where to begin to look. Remember, Barry, memories and connections. [...]

 

[ByAsura]

I don't think what I posted, at least, addresses Phoenks' point.

 

[ByArrow]

Bump

 

[Yokoahh5743]

I disagree. As far as I can see, it is just idle talk. There is no clear conclusion. If ramblings make it possible to upgrade, it would be extremely shocking

 

[ByAsura]

It's not just 'idle talk' with no clear conclusion.

The OP literally has a scan saying the Speed Force is 10-D, and wants to upgrade the Speed Force to 10-D. They've also given evidence that it's beyond baseline 2-A, which we have it as currently.

This is one of the most self-explanatory, concise CRTs on the wiki. What's in debate, at the moment, is whether or not it actually conforms to qualitative superiority standards.

Frankly, and I mean this with no disrespect, just leave it at 'I disagree' next time and your vote will be counted.

 

[Yokoahh5743]

It's not just 'idle talk' with no clear conclusion.

The OP literally has a scan saying the Speed Force is 10-D, and wants to upgrade the Speed Force to 10-D. They've also given evidence that it's beyond baseline 2-A, which we have it as currently.

This is one of the most self-explanatory, concise CRTs on the wiki. What's in debate, at the moment, is whether or not it actually conforms to qualitative superiority standards.

Frankly, and I mean this with no disrespect, just leave it at 'I disagree' next time and your vote will be counted.

I mean that he, That imagination is similar to a story. It's nonsense because it's clearly just a fantasy based on that context

 

[ByAsura]

Firstly, in context, he's not talking about the manifestation of HyperHeaven/Speed Force in his own mind. He's talking about it in general, hence why it qualifies the line with 'as best as he could tell'.

Secondly, the speed mantra is an equation that connects him more directly to the Speed Force, so his envisioning is accurate enough to work.

Thirdly, please say what you actually mean next time, then.

 

[Yokoahh5743]

Firstly, in context, he's not talking about the manifestation of HyperHeaven/Speed Force in his own mind. He's talking about it in general, hence why it qualifies the line with 'as best as he could tell'.

Secondly, the speed mantra is an equation that connects him more directly to the Speed Force, so his envisioning is accurate enough to work.

Thirdly, please say what you actually mean next time, then.

So every other character who has a connection to the power and is identified as being on a different dimension level should be upgraded because of their accuracy and connection?

 

[Phoenks]

I don't think what I posted, at least, addresses Phoenks' point.

It doesn't tell me anything about the nature of these dimensions. For them to be accepted as quantifiable, you need something that mentions their scope in some way, relative to the dimensions below them.

Like, are they infinitely larger? Do they extend across separate axes? Etc.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Disagree. The Speed Force in the Arrowverse is obviously below nuke level.

Agree FRA. I looked through the points presented, and I think there's enough there between it outright being stated to be 10-D, to the Speed Force being treated as infinite on multiple occasions, that support a High 1-C Speed Force.

 

[ByAsura]

So every other character who has a connection to the power and is identified as being on a different dimension level

That's not what we're saying.

We're just upgrading the Speed Force, not the characters who are connected to it, since that's how the Speed Force as a whole is described.

should be upgraded because of their accuracy and connection?

My point was that Johnny Quick was describing the Speed Force itself (not a thought-form), and he also described it accurately because what he was trying to accomplish by envisioning and using equations was successful. It has nothing to do with the fact that Johnny Quick is simply connected to the Speed Force.

Like, are they infinitely larger? Do they extend across separate axes? Etc.

I'm looking for stuff on this. I'm just busy atm.

As far as I can tell, there isn't anything on the Speed Force specifically, although a qualatively superior (IIRC) 5th dimension does exist in the Arrowverse.

 

[Yokoahh5743]

My point was that Johnny Quick was describing the Speed Force itself (not a thought-form), and he also described it accurately because what he was trying to accomplish by envisioning and using equations was successful. It has nothing to do with the fact that Johnny Quick is simply connected to the Speed Force.

Just the words upgraded me and I was shocked. If it were really specified in 10 dimensions, would you have a word about boundaries? Is it larger than infinite?

 

[ByAsura]

I don't get what you're actually saying.

As for larger than infinite, it's explicitly more vast than individual, infinite space-time continuums. As for boundaries, it's outside and kind of above the multiverse, but connected to it/part of it. But neither of those are in an explicitly qualatively superior, higher-dimensional sense.

 

[Yokoahh5743]

As for larger than infinite, it's explicitly more vast than individual, infinite space-time continuums. As for boundaries, it's outside and kind of above the multiverse, but connected to it/part of it. But neither of those are in an explicitly qualatively superior, higher-dimensional sense.

Does that mean haven't gotten 10-D yet? If proven, it can be upgraded

 

[Shadowbeast]

Idk why the Vanishing Point is 2-A, do we treat spaces outside a infinite multiverse as automatically 2-A?

The 2-A stuff is fine but i don't know about that High 1-C stuff. I personly agree with High 1-C but like ByAsura stated, i'm not sure if this fits the current standards of the tiering system.

 

[ByAsura]

I think GF meant that the Speed Force is 2-A since it even encompasses planes outside the normal multiverse, like the Vanishing Point.

 

[Shadowbeast]

I think GF meant that the Speed Force is 2-A since it even encompasses planes outside the normal multiverse, like the Vanishing Point.

This makes more sense and would make the Speed Force way higher than baseline 2-A. Although i think this was already kind of known for ppl here.

 

[ByArrow]

It doesn't tell me anything about the nature of these dimensions. For them to be accepted as quantifiable, you need something that mentions their scope in some way, relative to the dimensions below them.

İt tells that the dimensions are infinite and even a character with multiversal+ range cannot see all

 

[Phoenks]

İt tells that the dimensions are infinite and even a character with multiversal+ range cannot see all

Does it go into detail on how each higher-dimension is infinitely vast? And are they ever mentioned to be infinite in relativity to lower dimensions?

The 2-A range thing doesn't prove that it's High 1-C.

Even 2-A structures can be "larger" than other 2-A structures in-verse.

 

[ByArrow]

Does it go into detail on how each higher-dimension is infinitely vast?

He doesn't go into detail, but he says it.

And are they ever mentioned to be infinite in relativity to lower dimensions?

I show with scans that this is the case with the OP

The 2-A range thing doesn't prove that it's High 1-C.

But it supports

Even 2-A structures can be "larger" than other 2-A structures in-verse.

How? How can you be larger than the Infinite? How can you be larger without an infinity higher than an infinite number of infinities?

How can it be an infinite void containing these without having a higher infinity?

 

[Swordsaint456]

i dont see how this fits for qualitive superiority needed for high 1-C?

 

[Phoenks]

He doesn't go into detail, but he says it.

I show with scans that this is the case with the OP

But it supports

How? How can you be larger than the Infinite? How can you be larger without an infinity higher than an infinite number of infinities?

How can it be an infinite void containing these without having a higher infinity?

I don't see any scans that are solid enough to say each dimension is infinitely larger in scope of quantity that the last.

"How can you be larger than infinite"

The same way Low 2-C is bigger than High 3-A, or 2-A is bigger than 2-B.

And, in fiction, it is possible for a structure to be stated as being bigger or more vast than a 2-A structure without said structure being higher-dimensional.

 

[AxilityIsReal]

Where does the tenth-dimensional scan come from? Seems like it's not from the comics and there are DC contradictions regardless, with the 5th dimension being 5D, the 6th dimension being 6D and the overvoid possibly being 7D.

 

[Shadowbeast]

Where does the tenth-dimensional scan come from? Seems like it's not from the comics and there are DC contradictions regardless, with the 5th dimension being 5D, the 6th dimension being 6D and the overvoid possibly being 7D.

It's from a tie-in novel with the Arrowverse Flash series, called The Flash:Johnny Quick.

 

[ByArrow]

The same way Low 2-C is bigger than High 3-A, or 2-A is bigger than 2-B.

It's not the same thing

And, in fiction, it is possible for a structure to be stated as being bigger or more vast than a 2-A structure without said structure being higher-dimensional.

It can be specified, but it cannot be. Even if they were many times larger than infinity, it cannot be larger or wider because it would still be infinity.

 

[Phoenks]

It's not the same thing

It can be specified, but it cannot be. Even if they were many times larger than infinity, it cannot be larger or wider because it would still be infinity.

You realize that 2-B and 2-A are the same mathematically, right?

 

[Omnificence]

You realize that 2-B and 2-A are the same mathematically, right?

Not really...

2-B is basically a countable/finite number of universes while 2-A is an infinite/uncountable number of universes.

 

[Phoenks]

Not really...

2-B is basically a countable/finite number of universes while 2-A is an infinite/uncountable number of universes.

Notice that word universes. That's important because that's where the math comes from. If you have an infinite 4-D space-time structure (Low 2-C), and multiply it by countable or infinite amounts, you don't actually get a bigger number or anything greater, because you're just multiplying something that's already infinite. The same infinity, at that.

VSBW just treats it that way because it's more useful for debating since that's how most verses usually treat it. 2 universes < 1000 universes, and so on.

Anyway, point is the math isn't even what matters. It's what the fiction thinks. If the fiction says that another realm is bigger than a 2-A realm, then it is. Doesn't mean it's higher-dimensional.

 

[Shadowbeast]

Anyway, point is the math isn't even what matters. It's what the fiction thinks. If the fiction says that another realm is bigger than a 2-A realm, then it is. Doesn't mean it's higher-dimensional.

Depends, sometimes "bigger" can serve as a qualitative superiority for that realm in comparasion to the another 2-A realm. And this would make such realm indeed be higher-dimensional according to our standards.

 

[Phoenks]

Depends, sometimes "bigger" can serve as a qualitative superiority for that realm in comparasion to the another 2-A realm. And this would make such realm indeed be higher-dimensional according to our standards.

Obviously it depends, but the evidence provided here doesn't give me reason to say the realm is High 1-C for being "bigger" than the 2-A realm.

 

[Elizhaa]

Every existence multiplied by possibility. And spread out before space and time in infinite measure. -Mar Novu

This statement shows that the dimensions are infinite.

I guess sure for High 1-C since it can support dimensions being significant in size, like as infinite, and also if applied to the Speed Force.

 

[ByArrow]

There are 13 agreements, including 3 from staff members with voting rights, and 48 hours have passed, so I believe this can be applied.

 

[AxilityIsReal]

I'm a bit bored right now, so let's try this.

Speed Force (Aka. HyperHeaven) is a Tenth-Dimensional construct located on the cosmic plane.

It contains more than one, possibly an infinite number of infinite multiverses, and the number grows exponentially. (Events like Flashpoint result in the creation of new multiverses.) This is 2-A

In addition to these multiverses, it also contains Vanishing Point (the area outside these multiverses). This is 2-A

Although the Speed Force contains these, it is an endless void and a 10th dimensional structure. This means the Speed Force is a higher infinity. This is High 1-C.

The Cosmic plane is a plane of existence that contains the Speed force and other forces of nature. This is High 1-C.

I am a bit 50/50 in confidence on whether this will be accepted or rejected. I just really want to see if this qualifies.

Those in agreement: @ByAsura (He personally agrees but doesn't know if it's fit the standards.), @Benimōru @Deidalius @Da3ggman @Planck69 @Serlock_Holmes @Da_Lunge_Fish @zaraus @Slinghtt @ZoroNotZolo @Shadowbeast (He personally agrees but doesn't know if it's fit the standards) @ShionAH @Elizhaa

Those in disagreement: @Phoenks

Those yet to form an opinion:

I disagree with this, honestly, and there are several reasons why:

1. The "tenth-dimensional" scan comes from a novel which is related to the TV series, so that means that it should be consistent with the series itself, right? Unfortunately, there's no evidence or any type of statement of it being higher dimensional, there is literally 0 implication for that, meaning that the actual evidence is that little scan. Barry & co. have been shown to be physically limited by the third dimension multiple times, so how come that 3D beings can exist and interact with a supposed 10-dimensional place? The authors aren't the same, and for they have different views on the cosmology, that's the reason why of the multiple contradictions and general controversy present within the comics about the cosmology

2. Let's suppose that this tenth-dimensional place thing is consistent within the TV series, what is the evidence that those "higher dimensions" actually make this transfinite difference? Many times in fiction happens that due to the authors' ignorance (or similar reasons), higher dimensions, even if directly mentioned, don't really hold validity as their higher dimensional properties are contradicted or denied. A good example for this is Transformers (if you're an expert on it then you should know what I'm talking about), so at the end of the day I don't feel like there's enough evidence to upscale this

 

[Firestorm808]

Can the OP cite the source for the 10D statement? There also needs to be context that these higher dimensions are uncountably infinitely larger than the last.

Additionally, being bigger than a collection of 2-A structures (unless uncountably infinitely larger) is no longer applicable for Low 1-C.

At the moment, leaning against Tier 1.

 

[ByArrow]

I disagree with this, honestly, and there are several reasons why:

1. The "tenth-dimensional" scan comes from a novel which is related to the TV series, so that means that it should be consistent with the series itself, right? Unfortunately, there's no evidence or any type of statement of it being higher dimensional, there is literally 0 implication for that, meaning that the actual evidence is that little scan. Barry & co. have been shown to be physically limited by the third dimension multiple times, so how come that 3D beings can exist and interact with a supposed 10-dimensional place? The authors aren't the same, and for they have different views on the cosmology, that's the reason why of the multiple contradictions and general controversy present within the comics about the cosmology

Are you sure you know the series? The Speed Force is constantly mentioned as an extra-dimensional realm. This is even mentioned in the summary of it profile.

2. Let's suppose that this tenth-dimensional place thing is consistent within the TV series, what is the evidence that those "higher dimensions" actually make this transfinite difference? Many times in fiction happens that due to the authors' ignorance (or similar reasons), higher dimensions, even if directly mentioned, don't really hold validity as their higher dimensional properties are contradicted or denied. A good example for this is Transformers (if you're an expert on it then you should know what I'm talking about), so at the end of the day I don't feel like there's enough evidence to upscale this

It's already mentioned in the OP

 

[KingNanaya]

Can the OP cite the source for the 10D statement?

The Flash: Johnny Quick

 

[ByArrow]

Can the OP cite the source for the 10D statement? There also needs to be context that these higher dimensions are uncountably infinitely larger than the last.

The Flash: Johnny Quick.

 

[ByAsura]

Barry & co. have been shown to be physically limited by the third dimension multiple times, so how come that 3D beings can exist and interact with a supposed 10-dimensional place?

Because they don't actually interact with the Speed Force itself, and the Speed Force domain allows Barry to see/interact with it, like appearing as Joe, Barry's house, his mother, etc.

• Speed Joe: Good to see you, Barry. But I'm not Joe.
• Barry: You're not?
• Speed Joe: No.
• Barry: And all of this? It's not real?
• Speed Joe: How do you feel, being back here?
• Barry: I feel awful.
• Speed Joe: We thought you'd be more comfortable talking to someone who looked familiar and in a place you knew.

- The Runaway Dinosaur 2x21

Even when the Speed Force was 'destroyed' (including its energies) and all Speedsters were rendered totally powerless, it still explicitly existed as an 'elemental part' of the universe.

• No, but the Speed Force is an elemental part of the universe, so theoretically…
• Theoretically it could have never disappeared.

- Mother 7x3

And, as I mentioned before, Savitar also planned to become one with all space-time through the Speed Force. It's literally just a void/sea of time and energy beyond normal space-time. How could they even stand on the Speed Force unless the Speed Force wanted them to? Clearly it's not a tangible thing (unless it makes itself that way) and obviously not limited to 3 dimensions, especially given that characters can use it for time travel.

Can the OP cite the source for the 10D statement?

The Flash: Johnny Quick.

For clarification, I was the one who provided all the screenshots.