Iron Fist upgrade 2.0

[The_Impress]

No I just love the hypocrisy going here. I'm voicing my opinions as calmly as ever thus far, hell I'd argue I'm completely calm offsite too that you claim as ranting, just without the swear filter staff guidelines ask me to have.

Yeah, Qawsed makes great points.

Do we put use a fraction of the points Qawsedf has made to establish scaling in any other verse? Especially verses that have had to historically factor in not being overtly violent?

We don't even consistently apply it to Marvel itself, this is the kinda stuff I've only seen in verses that push for realism, where grunts and pained expressions and staggering is suddenly not sufficient.

Comics standards are in context to consistency and contextual placement, the overextension to scaling as a whole is extremely questionable.

I'm neither proposing any upscale, nor any other form of superiority, I am only asserting that the Iron Fist, in the examples given, has harmed 5-A characters. Not greatly or anything, but enough. I don't need the Hulk to bleed out, be gored or yell in deathly pain, to show that.

 

[Limbless_Athena]

So for the Thing he just staggered him mostly. Hulk was punched through a wall and was just undamaged.

• Colosuss is punched into a table, and shows no signs of harm
• Hercules has multiple issues: He was punched, but a character arc during that one was his rampant alcoholism and he was drunk af when he got knocked out. More importantly Zeus has stripped him of his divine nature and made him much weaker. In other words this is a nerfed Hercules.
• Skaar was hit, but no blood was drawn and the next pages show him more or less uninjured. Punching a dude and sending him flying isn't automatically scaling

Though if we want to count "Moved them with fist" as proper scaling I guess its okay, but I'm honestly not for it.

If colossus wasn't hurt by that punch, it wouldn't have even moved him. same with Skaar. they're both characters who run on the Superman trope where any attack that doesn't significantly hurt them can't even lift them off the ground.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, to be fair, I think that Impress is not being aggressive currently. She seems to be on her best behaviour.

Anyway, going by my experience with Marvel, characters spitting blood when they are damaged, or far more gory examples, have been quite commonplace for the last 22 years at least.

 

[Antvasima]

If colossus wasn't hurt by that punch, it wouldn't have even moved him. same with Skaar. they're both characters who run on the Superman trope where any attack that doesn't significantly hurt them can't even lift them off the ground.

That is not consistently true as far as I am aware. It depends from case to case.

Removing somebody from a fight by punching them, without causing actual visible damage is not uncommon either.

 

[The_Impress]

Most of the feats presented come from before that time period, hell I think the Thing and Colossus feats are comics code.

And in regards to the Hulk one, I straight up don't know what to say, he lets out a visible grunt upon being hit, and later on in the comic insists he be taught that due to the fist's effectiveness. Doesn't get more blatant than that.

Skaar one too imo, he's pretty out of commission for a good few panels. He does recover, but then again a claim can be made that's Skaar's stamina feat than Iron Fist's antifeat.

Hercules one is legitimate as it can get, from my recollection Hercules didn't lose his 5-A even after being depowered, he just couldn't hit 4-B anymore.

And again in my opinion, if blood was shown that'll imply there's an upscale. In most real-life scenarios as well, if you get hit you don't bleed more often than not, unless the hit was significantly more powerful.

Gory examples are more commonplace dependent on the character. Daredevil and Punisher have been retooled for more mature and experienced audiences, but the New Avengers run at least, was oriented towards new fans, it has a very notable lack of gore

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Pretty sure Hulk once caught his fist and broke his arm, also Hulk in that scan lets him get hit and its a modern one, no visible dmg

 

[The_Impress]

Pretty sure Hulk once caught his fist and broke his arm

Provide scans. Also Hulk goes up to 4-B

also Hulk in that scan lets him get hit and its a modern one, no visible dmg

Have you read any of the points regarding that or is this common practice to barge in on threads without reading arguments?

 

[Limbless_Athena]

Pretty sure Hulk once caught his fist and broke his arm, also Hulk in that scan lets him get hit and its a modern one, no visible dmg

Nobody said Iron Fist's durability scales to the hulk. we're talking about one attack that's way stronger than he is normally. unless Hulk caught that attack this first point doesn't matter.

Idk where you people keep getting this 'no visible damage' shit from either. if I punch one of you and you make a loud noise because it hurts, people watching us aren't gonna think you're fine just because i didn't leave a bruise or bust your lip open or something.

 

[The_Impress]

I will note by the way, alot of users who typically have nothing to do with comic threads suddenly take interest in this one to reject it.

I didn't know we had Iron Fist aficionados among us the whole time, waiting to only correct this one revision, while ignoring the prior ones, so conveniently after a Death Battle starring the character.

Kinda sus.

 

[Antvasima]

Most of the feats presented come from before that time period, hell I think the Thing and Colossus feats are comics code.

And in regards to the Hulk one, I straight up don't know what to say, he lets out a visible grunt upon being hit, and later on in the comic insists he be taught that due to the fist's effectiveness. Doesn't get more blatant than that.

Skaar one too imo, he's pretty out of commission for a good few panels. He does recover, but then again a claim can be made that's Skaar's stamina feat than Iron Fist's antifeat.

Hercules one is legitimate as it can get, from my recollection Hercules didn't lose his 5-A even after being depowered, he just couldn't hit 4-B anymore.

And again in my opinion, if blood was shown that'll imply there's an upscale. In most real-life scenarios as well, if you get hit you don't bleed more often than not, unless the hit was significantly more powerful.

Gory examples are more commonplace dependent on the character. Daredevil and Punisher have been retooled for more mature and experienced audiences, but the New Avengers run at least, was oriented towards new fans, it has a very notable lack of gore

These are also good points.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The standard you're putting forth to judge this is so restrictive that I don't even think most people's rogues gallery will scale to them.

I guess in this case I wanted more than just them grunting or being moved. But like I said if them being launched or staggered can be considered scaling its okay. I just wasn't for it. Though either way we shouldn't mention the Hercules thing.

 

[Antvasima]

I will note by the way, alot of users who typically have nothing to do with comic threads suddenly take interest in this one to reject it.

I didn't know we had Iron Fist aficionados among us the whole time, waiting to only correct this one revision, while ignoring the prior ones, so conveniently after a Death Battle starring the character.

Kinda sus.

People have the right to try to help out though. It is not enough to get paranoid about.

 

[The_Impress]

It's just problematic when they don't give scans for this help, and try to reject the revision without even noting down the points, it does raise a notable suspicion

 

[Antvasima]

There is no agenda towards you personally. They are just trying to do their jobs to make sure that the feats are reliable to scale from.

 

[The_Impress]

Also while we're at it I think the 7-A with Energy Absorption should be removed. There is not a single proof given so far he just automatically absorbs hits like that with no elaboration
It's masking outliers as legible feats imo.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed.

 

[The_Impress]

I guess in this case I wanted more than just them grunting or being moved. But like I said if them being launched or staggered can be considered scaling its okay. I just wasn't for it. Though either way we shouldn't mention the Hercules thing.

I suppose I can be willing to remove the Hercules scan specific since we don't have a key for that state.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Nobody said Iron Fist's durability scales to the hulk. we're talking about one attack that's way stronger than he is normally. unless Hulk caught that attack this first point doesn't matter.

Idk where you people keep getting this 'no visible damage' shit from either. if I punch one of you and you make a loud noise because it hurts, people watching us aren't gonna think you're fine just because i didn't leave a bruise or bust your lip open or something.

I didnt argue durability, i said Hulk caught his punch he wanted to deliver on him and broke his arm, that makes it questionable to scale off of Hulk

Provide scans. Also Hulk goes up to 4-B

I will just wait to get it

Have you read any of the points regarding that or is this common practice to barge in on threads without reading arguments?

And yes i did read, even showed it to a friend whom actually reads comics snd he even says it its bull, Hercules takes blows from Mjolnir for example, yet Danny ko him? Also as brought up earlier, he was drunk among other stuff

Let alone thinking that punching someone off of their feet translates to 5-A is also faulty

 

[The_Impress]

I didnt argue durability, i said Hulk caught his punch he wanted to deliver on him and broke his arm, that makes it questionable to scale off of Hulk

Scans. Faster.

And yes i did read, even showed it to a friend whom actually reads comics snd he even says it its bull, Hercules takes blows from Mjolnir for example, yet Danny ko him? Also as brought up earlier, he was drunk among other stuff

So you haven't even read comics and are going off of your unknown friend's claim. Nice.

Does your friend know the Hercules that takes blows from the Mjolnir isn't the Hercules that we're scaling to? We're scaling to the version that severely holds back against mortals.

Hell, is your friend familiar with any standards on the wiki?

Let alone thinking that punching someone off of their feet translates to 5-A is also faulty

It's not. Hurting them translates to 5-A. He hurt them.

You didn't read the arguments, did you?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Scans. Faster.

Such patience you got

So you haven't even read comics and are going off of your unknown friend's claim. Nice.

I read comics, just not in the ammount of a debater of it or fan of them and its not an unknown friend let alone was a member here long ago whom left from here

Does your friend know the Hercules that takes blows from the Mjolnir isn't the Hercules that we're scaling to? We're scaling to the version that severely holds back against mortals.

You cant hold back durability, moot point

Hell, is your friend familiar with any standards on the wiki?

He is and works on another one and he is irked at how some stuff are handled here, comics in particular

It's not. Hurting them translates to 5-A. He hurt them.

Except its not, even skaar and the hulk one where he gets hit shows no dmg visible abd are more modern comics, your excuse of blood or such not showing isnt a good one

 

[BlackDarkness679]

 

[Limbless_Athena]

I didnt argue durability, i said Hulk caught his punch he wanted to deliver on him and broke his arm, that makes it questionable to scale off of Hulk

which still goes back to what I said before, unless he caught the specific attack we're talking about scaling this point doesn't matter.

I will just wait to get it

if you can't do it, tell me which comic it's from and I'LL get it.

 

[The_Impress]

Such patience you got

You're the one wasting time replying instead of finding the scans

I read comics, just not in the ammount of a debater of it or fan of them and its not an unknown friend let alone was a member here long ago whom left from here

Wow we're now debating a user who admits to not have read comics enough to debate them one bit, and an offsite dude.

Woopidy doo

You cant hold back durability, moot point

This is the level of shit I'm dealing with rn, people arguing stuff that was cleared up in revisions an year back.

He is and works on another one and he is irked at how some stuff are handled here, comics in particular

So an offsite user who dislikes our standards and left. Fantastic.

Except its not, even skaar and the hulk one where he gets hit shows no dmg visible abd are more modern comics, your excuse of blood or such not showing isnt a good one

Why?

 

[The_Impress]

Yes this is indeed what happens when two variable tiers interact with each other.

Inconsistent results.

Thanks for showing something everyone should already know.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

An enraged Savage Hulk can be 4-B, not much of an anti-feat for 5-A.

 

[Confluctor]

What's the source for this comic please? Seems like enraged Hulk, but I want to confirm it in context myself.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally fine with Impress' conclusions, and greatly appreciate all of her help, but, again, she needs to consistently be more patient and polite, or it will help to erode the remaining positive mood and collaboration of our community, and give our staff a worse reputation.

 

[Antvasima]

What's the source for this comic please? Seems like enraged Hulk, but I want to confirm it in context myself.

It is from Hulk issue 300, when Nightmare turned him into a mindless beast.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You're the one wasting time replying instead of finding the scans

And you sure dont know to hold a convo without snapping or giving atttitude like you do now

Wow we're now debating a user who admits to not have read comics enough to debate them one bit, and an offsite dude.

More from what i said earlier, if with such behaviour a mod adresses an user, what example you give others then?

This is the level of shit I'm dealing with rn, people arguing stuff that was cleared up in revisions an year back.

What does that have anything to do with this?

So an offsite user who dislikes our standards and left. Fantastic.

Left cuz those like you think they know better and when questioned they dont defend their point, let alone the behaviour

Why?

Dunno why you ask such a thing for something pretty much answered

 

[The_Impress]

I just think it's exceptionally cheap that we're debating a user who admits to not knowing comics, and an offsite user who left after being disgruntled by our standards

 

[Confluctor]

It is from Hulk issue 300, when Nightmare turned him into a mindless beast.

Thanks.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Yes this is indeed what happens when two variable tiers interact with each other.

Inconsistent results.

Thanks for showing something everyone should already know.

You speak for all? How you know everyone knew of this hm? Also you still didnt adress the fact IF never hurt either Hulks at all

 

[The_Impress]

"Dunno why you ask such a thing for something pretty much answered"

They answered wrong, I debunked them, they conceded. Explain why you don't concede.

Also in regards to my behavior, I haven't insulted you once.

If you want to be offended, please be offended on something worth it.

 

[The_Impress]

You speak for all? How you know everyone knew of this hm? Also you still didnt adress the fact IF never hurt either Hulks at all

How YOU know of him?

You haven't addressed why visible grunts and contextual clues don't matter.

 

[Confluctor]

You speak for all? How you know everyone knew of this hm? Also you still didnt adress the fact IF never hurt either Hulks at all

Actually about this Hulk, I just skimmed through the comic and it was an extremely angry Hulk who was fighting against avengers as well as a very serious Thor. It wasn't until Dr Strange BFRed him or else he might have defeated Thor too.

How is a 5A losing against a 4B an anti feat for the former?

 

[Antvasima]

Impress, please make a serious effort to be patient and polite even if you think another member is making stupid arguments. We are trying to keep this community nice, friendly, and collaborative, and there are high demands on our staff to act as role models in this regard.

I mean, I am autistic, recurrently stressed out, and have a history of severe mental instability. If I can usually manage to be helpful and polite, so can you.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I still agree with Impress' points as such. Just be more diplomatic when delivering them.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

They answered wrong, I debunked them, they conceded. Explain why you don't concede.

You try to pass a character punching those above his league away as if he hurt them, we seen how that went

Also in regards to my behavior, I haven't insulted you once.

You still giving others attitude with stuff like "oh wow you dont know anything yet you argue excellent", thats uncalled for

If you want to be offended, please be offended on something worth it.

I didnt say i were, dont put words in my mouth

 

[Antvasima]

BlackDarkness, your attitude has not been ideal either though.

Perhaps everybody here could just try to cool off and stop making accusations?

 

[The_Impress]

You try to pass a character punching those above his league away as if he hurt them, we seen how

...because he hurt them. You have to explain why the context given isn't enough to establish that fact.

You still giving others attitude with stuff like "oh wow you dont know anything yet you argue excellent", thats uncalled for

I didnt say i were, dont put words in my mouth

This is known as being offended. And you're putting words in my mouth at the same time. Interesting.

Look, dude, just, focus on the points you want to present and consider the facts already established.