Invincible TV Show: AP/Speed Revisions, Black Hole and Tier 4 feats.

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Mark should not have two keys (Pre/Post Thraxa Fight). No power ups are ever mentioned for Mark, his father doesn't mention any during the fight in Thraxa, he just says that Mark shouldn't hold back like he does on Earth ( 1:25). So instead of "7-A for Pre-Thraxa Mark and Low 6-B for Post-Thraxa Mark", it should be "7-A, Low 6-B when he doesn't hold back".

Rex's equipment is currently Low 6-B thanks to scaling to the durability of Octoboss, the latter having a Low 6-B durability because he tanked a punch from Post-Thraxa Mark. But as I explained above, Mark is only Low 6-B when he doesn't hold back, and that's something he rarely does to avoid killing his opponents ( 1:52). So no Low 6-B neither for Octoboss's durability nor for Rex Splode's equipment.
Some people might also try to scale Rex's equipment to the durability of Komodo Dragon who fought with Immortal who himself is Low 6-B, but as with Mark, Immortal was holding back. War Woman and Immortal are capable of make Omni Man bleed heavily and send him to intensive care, and yet no member of the Lizard League was killed or even seriously injured during their fight against the Guardians of the Globe (), so the latter were clearly holding back for not to kill them (like heroes often do it). So neither Komodo Dragon is Low 6-B.

Pre-Recovery Allen should also be MFTL+, not just Post-Recovery Allen. He flew from Talescria (the CoP HQ, which is probably in another galaxy like in the comics) to Earth in an hurry (he wanted to prevent Mark that a viltrumite was on Earth, so he really had to go as fast as possible) and deaccelerated at the last moment (0:15), and he fought against Mark () who can perceive Allen's top flight speed.

Does Omni-Man who is near a black hole without being affected give an upgrade to his LS? https://youtu.be/nWqVXaF6XV0?si=xhgAPxhz8mQfoFy6 (1:25)

It's important to note that there is a Tier 4 feat in the show (even if no one scale): Space Racer destroy a star with the Infinite Ray https://youtu.be/DbUR9ugb1-I?si=T9Xq9lYWJz5a6Y8Q (0:54)
A calc is needed or it's Star level by default?

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

I agree with the ap stuff, your gonna need an accepted speed calc to propose mftl

Last two questions aren’t appropriate for a crt

 

[Phoenks]

I mean I think it is clear Mark is stronger than before after a bit of a time skip. But I think the keys should be Season 1 and Season 2 instead.

He should also just be straight Low 6-B. We don't rank characters for their "holding back" levels of power as far as I know. Which is why someone like Saitama isn't rated substantially lower than his serious self.

 

[azontr]

I mean I don't think Mark really got any stronger. He doesn't train with the Guardians, most of the Villains he fights on Earth he one shots, and the only training he was ABOUT to get was interrupted on Thraxa.

I agree it should probably just be 1 key with a straight-up Low 6-B rating.

 

[Pyro9278]

I agree with Phoenks on using different rankings according to the season. Season 1 would be limited to 7-A or higher, season 2 to Low 6-B and higher. As for the last two feats, it should be debated in another CRT, although for now it could possibly be considered a "possibly higher" in the LS ranking of Omni-Man and maybe Invincible.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I mean I think it is clear Mark is stronger than before after a bit of a time skip

There is no evidence of this, the only time Mark says he is stronger it's actually wrong:

Mark: "I'm better, I'm stronger, I'm ready"
Cecil: "No you're not, you're not Mark [...] It's only been a month."
(0:20)

 

[Qawsedf234]

A calc is needed or it's Star level by default?

It looks like a hax feat for the gun. Which would be durability negation.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

If we are merging to one key, shouldn't Mark be High 6-C+ instead, since Omni-Man is baseline Low 6-B and it's pretty clear Omni-Man is still superior to him.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

It looks like a hax feat for the gun. Which would be durability negation.

How would destroying a star be durability negation?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Does Omni-Man who is near a black hole without being affected give an upgrade to his LS? (1:25)

I'm pretty sure this got like Class G iirc. It doesn't help he was flying the very edge of it.

 

[azontr]

If we are merging to one key, shouldn't Mark be High 6-C+ instead, since Omni-Man is baseline Low 6-B and it's pretty clear Omni-Man is still superior to him.

I don't think he's weak enough to warrant that kind of downscale. He fought on par with Thula whose certainly comparable to Nolan, so.

If we're talking about when he's holding back then yeah, I guess he should downscale ?

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

I don't think he's weak enough to warrant that kind of downscale. He fought on par with Thula whose certainly comparable to Nolan, so.

If we're talking about when he's holding back then yeah, I guess he should downscale ?

What exactly makes her certainly comparable to Nolan? She was the only viltrumite shown to be using a weapon and Nolan one-shot her when she actually started fighting him.

 

[azontr]

She was the only viltrumite shown to be using a weapon and Nolan one-shot her when she actually started fighting him.

I mean, he one shot her after she was worn down from battling Mark. And if we're using that logic, Nolan literally crushed the other guy's skull, whose absolutely on Nolan's level (because they literally had an entire sequence of them trading blows).

I feel like the fact that Viltrum even sent Thula to Nolan is proof that she's in that general realm of power.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don't think he's weak enough to warrant that kind of downscale. He fought on par with Thula whose certainly comparable to Nolan, so.

Didn't Nolan almost stomp Thula. Not to mention Nolan could defeat Lucan, who easily defeated Mark.

I feel like the fact that Viltrum even sent Thula to Nolan is proof that she's in that general realm of power.

Yeah, but she also has two other viltrumites on her level as well. So it's clearly not just her.

That and if we're also using Season 1 feats, then it's still very clear that Nolan is stronger than Mark is.

 

[azontr]

Not trying to say Mark is as strong or stronger of course. Just that whether or not he really downscales to that extent is up for debate— I'm not really passionate about the subject.

 

[TheRustyOne]

To be honest I wasn't really sold on Mark scaling to Nolan at all yet, felt like people were too hasty on this.

Thula has no feats being comparable to Nolan beyond getting stomped by him, which isn't a feat for her. Lucan does scale to Nolan, but he effortlessly pushed Mark into the ground with one finger. Anissa might be around that level as well and Mark got crushed by her. With him having an 18% chance of just surviving an encounter with her.

Thula being apart of the same team is irrelevant.

Nolan was going to help train Mark to get him ready, basically saying Mark isn't strong enough to stand a chance yet. And we know Mark is now going to be focused on getting better, stronger, and have more control as well. I really think Mark should just stay at 7-A+ right now, because he is not that level yet.

Especially if we're going to say he hasn't gotten any stronger, which means all of his anti-feats against scaling to Nolan in Season 1 still count.

 

[azontr]

Her being on the same team isn't irrelevant at all. Her being there at all is proof that she's in Nolan's realm, or else Viltrum wouldn't have sent someone who they know Nolan can just neg diff. Narratively, that would be a frankly idiotic assumption.

She only got one shot after she had gotten injured fighting mark, and again, if we're going to use that kind of logic, Nolan's opponent (I don't know how to pronounce his name) literally got his skull squished, and Lucan literally had his stomach sliced open with a hand wave.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Not trying to say Mark is as strong or stronger of course. Just that whether or not he really downscales to that extent is up for debate— I'm not really passionate about the subject.

I mean, Omni-Man's Low 6-B is barely above baseline. Downscaling seems justifiable.

 

[azontr]

That's cool with me, I guess. Not like I actually have the power to sway the outcome, anyways.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

It looks like a hax feat for the gun. Which would be durability negation.

How would destroying a star be durability negation? ×2
We just see the projectile heading towards the star and exploding it.

Didn't Nolan almost stomp Thula. Not to mention Nolan could defeat Lucan, who easily defeated Mark.


Yeah, but she also has two other viltrumites on her level as well. So it's clearly not just her.

That and if we're also using Season 1 feats, then it's still very clear that Nolan is stronger than Mark is.

To be honest I wasn't really sold on Mark scaling to Nolan at all yet, felt like people were too hasty on this.

Thula has no feats being comparable to Nolan beyond getting stomped by him, which isn't a feat for her. Lucan does scale to Nolan, but he effortlessly pushed Mark into the ground with one finger. Anissa might be around that level as well and Mark got crushed by her. With him having an 18% chance of just surviving an encounter with her.

Thula being apart of the same team is irrelevant.

Nolan was going to help train Mark to get him ready, basically saying Mark isn't strong enough to stand a chance yet. And we know Mark is now going to be focused on getting better, stronger, and have more control as well. I really think Mark should just stay at 7-A+ right now, because he is not that level yet.

Especially if we're going to say he hasn't gotten any stronger, which means all of his anti-feats against scaling to Nolan in Season 1 still count.

Mark was kicked by Nolan throughout their fight because he was holding back, the same thing was going to happen to him against Thula if Nolan hadn't told him to really fight. Nolan explicitly told Mark that he was fighting like he did on Earth, because he was getting stomped by Thula.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Thula has no feats period, this is just blind speculation.

Her being on the team is irrelevant, since that doesn't speak to her power. You're claiming narrative intention is all I need to know that this argument falls flat. We don't claim "narrative" for anything, we just take what we see and that's it. It's at best can only be used to support something, but it cannot be the basis for an entire rating.

Lucan and Vidor have feats of harming Nolan and inflicting serious injuries on him. The damage he inflicts on them is meaningless in this case.

The issue is that Mark and Nolan have a large gap, if Mark had a High 6-C feat no one would complain about this. But the 7-A to Low 6-B gap is not real in universe. It's something we're making up and cannot be used as proof of anything. The best you can sell me on is High 6-C downscaling for Mark.

There is no way he's equal with Nolan like the profile currently claims. Because Nolan is baseline Low 6-B and so is Mark, making them equals.

 

[azontr]

Her being on the team is irrelevant

Repeating what you said with a bit more fluff doesn't make it anymore accurate. Ignoring the narrative is the same as ignoring the material itself— there's never been a time where accurate statistics have been derived without pulling on context like this.

This isn't speculation, it's deduction. There is no reason Thula would be on Thraxa if Viltrum knew she was going to be turned to bits by Nolan with no effort— claim this is "irrelevant" if you want, but it's the very basics of deductive reasoning.

Lucan and Vidor have feats of harming Nolan and inflicting serious injuries on him. The damage he inflicts on them is meaningless in this case.

It can't be a meaningless argument when your own argument hinges on the fact that Nolan one-shots Thula, when he also one-shots Lucan and Vidor. Do you not see that? Lucan and Vidor make Nolan bleed a bit, Nolan literally mutilates them. This is an incredible difference.

 

[TheRustyOne]

It can't be a meaningless argument when your own argument hinges on the fact that Nolan one-shots Thula, when he also one-shots Lucan and Vidor. Do you not see that? Lucan and Vidor make Nolan bleed a bit, Nolan literally mutilates them. This is an incredible difference.

One shot means a single hit period. Nolan fights and hits them multiple times. Having one attack do serious damage after a fight isn't a one shot.

It's meaningless to discuss this with you. It's clear you don't care about anything I have to say and you will never change my opinion.

Also, stop acting like what I'm saying here is fact and is how the profiles will be changed or something. Pretty sure most if not all will disagree with me.

You have no reason to response to me at all, you just need to convince staff. So I suggest you save your energy for things that really matter.

I'm done with this thread as I've said my piece here, not dealing with this headache as I don't care. Cheerio lads.

 

[azontr]

You have no reason to response to me at all

You responded to arguments I was making, I feel like that's kind of a good enough reason. I don't understand why you've gotten so defensive over a simple disagreement in scaling, and I don't believe I've insulted you. If you feel like I have, I'm sorry, I guess.

 

[Phoenks]

Why is bro tweaking?

Anyway from what I see the series tends to treat all the Viltrumites as being relatively relative to one another. Like they can all kinda fight with each other but there are clearly those that are way stronger or way weaker still.

In a way it kinda mimics an actual species. In humans for example. We have people who are way stronger than others, but aren't so completely far apart that they are incomparable.

Also, note that Omni Man is genuinely upset that Mark is losing to Thalu and even says "You're going to get US both killed." Inferring that Thalu does present some amount of threat to his life.

Thalu also earlier in the fight managed to take a full strike from Omni Man and recover.

This is to say that I don't agree with 7-A at all.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Thula has no feats period, this is just blind speculation.

You don't necessarily need feats to upgrade. If you send someone to beat or kill a person whose strength you know, the person you send will necessarily be close in strength level logically. It makes no sense to send him if he is significantly weaker. It also makes no sense that a Viltrumite who is physically incapable of harming another is still alive, Viltrumites don't like the weak.

 

[azontr]

I think everyone has made their claims well enough— Rusty seems frustrated so I'd rather not bombard him with responses.

Would be best to get some staff in here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

How would destroying a star be durability negation? ×2
We just see the projectile heading towards the star and exploding it.

Because the beam doesn't explode or expand. It just goes forward forever and destroys whatever is in its path. I feel like it's not strictly just AP for the beam.

But if it's not hax then it's 4-C.

 

[Phoenks]

Because the beam doesn't explode or expand. It just goes forward forever and destroys whatever is in its path. I feel like it's not strictly just AP for the beam.

But if it's not hax then it's 4-C.

???

I seriously don't know how you get the conclusion of durability negation/had from that scene lmao. It's just a powerful beam of energy. Nothing suggests otherwise.

What do you think of the Mark scaling

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think of the Mark scaling

I think it makes more sense for Mark to be "7-A, Low 6-B when not holding back". Makes it more consistent with the show as well.

hole without being affected give an upgrade to his LS?

It could but ngl I wouldn't use Black Hole feats in fiction as the primary LS justification without supporting feats first.

 

[Phoenks]

I think it makes more sense for Mark to be "7-A, Low 6-B when not holding back". Makes it more consistent with the show as well.

Why would we give Mark a holding back tier? That doesn't make much sense and I don't think we do such things. Like I gave a Saitama example earlier.

We rate people based on their peak, not their holding back states since that isn't really their true attack potency.

How would you even hold back your durability anyways?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why would we give Mark a holding back tier?

Not a tier in of itself, but acknowledging that he (and some of the other heroes) don't use 100% of their strength all the time. If Mark isn't punching a Viltrumite with his full force then he's not punching Octoboss with it either.

How would you even hold back your durability anyways?

Being knocked back/stunned is pretty common in fiction. As an easy example MCU Spider-Man can stagger Thanos, but we don't rate him at Tier 6 for that.

 

[Phoenks]

Not a tier in of itself, but acknowledging that he (and some of the other heroes) don't use 100% of their strength all the time. If Mark isn't punching a Viltrumite with his full force then he's not punching Octoboss with it either.

That's not something that should be noted in the tier, though. That should just be noted as his tactics/weaknesses. Like at that point you'd have to do the same for all characters like this, such as Saitama. Seems tedious and also very weird considering "holding back" can vary a lot. Holding back could be 9-C. It could be 7-A. It. It could be High 6-C. I don't agree with using that.

Being knocked back/stunned is pretty common in fiction. As an easy example MCU Spider-Man can stagger Thanos, but we don't rate him at Tier 6 for that.

What does this have to do with holding back your durability? I'm confused. All you mentioned was an outlier.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's not something that should be noted in the tier, though.

I agreed with you, which is why the rest of my comment was about emphasizing his in-character mindset and scaling inconsistencies of treating Mark as always being Low 6-B.

What does this have to do with holding back your durability

I'm saying that Mark being thrown back isn't a scaling justification on its own. Though I guess ultimately that's not relevant here.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I agree with the ap stuff, your gonna need an accepted speed calc to propose mftl

Last two questions aren’t appropriate for a crt

I'm not good at math, I have to make a calc request?

Also, there is no timeframe given for the feat, but it still mftl+

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Regarding Mark’s scaling: while Thula is completely featless, we know Season 2 Mark is stronger than The Immortal, who’s listed as Low 6-B

The Immortal (TV Series)

The Immortal is a supporting character in Invincible TV Series. He is a superhero who was gifted with immortality. With his longevity, he would leave his mark on history, becoming a knight and even the renowned Abraham Lincoln, before eventually donning a hero costume sometime in the early 20th...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

I'm not good at math, I have to make a calc request?

Also, there is no timeframe given for the feat, but it still mftl+

Ya probably, but you’d still need proof of the CoP location and timeframe of Allan when Allan started racing back to earth. To be properly accepted in a crt

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

we know Season 2 Mark is stronger than The Immortal

Season1/Season 2 Mark has the same strength, but anyway yeah Mark is superior to Immortal, he even explicitly said that he is stronger and faster than him.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Ya probably, but you’d still need proof of the CoP location and timeframe of Allan when Allan started racing back to earth. To be properly accepted in a crt

Well, the problem is that no timeframe is given, we don't know where is Talescria in the show.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Well, are we ignoring the fact that Mark straight up drew blood from Nolan in season 1?