Infinite-sized DC Comics universes

[Confluctor]

Leaving aside the shit title - and nobody change that, smh - we need to have a serious fricking conversation about infinite sized Marvel and DC verses.


Did you know, we have countless statements where the universe is said to be infinite, not just by ordinary nobodies, but people who know the cosmos like the back of their hand? And we have, roughly around 4 or 5 statements about a finite size of the universe - and some of which come from... well, not super-geniuses for sure?


DC: some Infinite universe statements:

• Cyborg Supes - Superman 1987 #78
• Orion - a literal God - The New Gods 1989 18
• Kal's parents (?) - SUPERMAN: THE LAST GOD OF KRYPTON
• Narrator - Justice League (2018) Annual #1
• A GL becomes one with uni and says this - The Green Lantern Corps #219
• Narration - Tales of the Green Lantern Corps Vol 1 #1
• Trigon - The New Teen Titans Vol 2 #5
• Hfuhruhurr - someone who travelled the vast cosmos -The Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #452

Right now, we base 100 Trillion based on this " Strange Zeta Beams Superman: The Man of Steel (1991) #115. Literally, nothing indicates that this universe is 100 trillion years. And this statement from Supes is kinda worthless too. Does Superman know the true limits of the universe? No. His understanding of cosmos and shit isn't this good to base everything on this. Or on Adam Strange for that matter.



In any case, this is an open discussion regarding the size of DC universes.


Now, if this gets accepted;

• Universe crossing - from characters with consistent feats - becomes infinite speed.
• Absorbing the universe in a short period of time becomes infinite speed - Nekron for example.
• Destroying the universe - physical - becomes high 3-a instead of 3A

Edit; since some people are having issues with this, let me clarify for the last time; NO, it DOESN'T mean heralds get infinite speed or high 3A AP. Unless they have consistent feats or statements that are meant to be on this level and doesn't cause scaling issues.


Note: Unless you have a great deal of knowledge about the verses, or have constructive argument/evidence to provide to the thread at hand, please refrain from commenting.

 

[Confluctor]

@Antvasima @Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234 @LordTracer

if you guys got anyone else to tag, please do. I can't remember anymore atm

 

[Hasty12345]

wouldn't this also make Marvel Heralds high 3-A because they currently scale to a "shaking the universe" feat?

I could be wrong though

 

[Qawsedf234]

From memory about Marvel there's multiple other pieces of evidence that directly mentions the universe having an edge and some of the infinite statements can be considered flowery language.

I can look deeper into Friday or Saturday if that's fine with you.

 

[Antvasima]

This mostly seems fine to me as long as we consider universe-shaking feats from herald-level tiers as outliers as a consequence. I am not sure about universe absorption automatically scaling to infinite speed though.

@Eficiente @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Planck69 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Alonik

Your input would be appreciated here. That of Impress as well, but she is busy IRL at the moment.

 

[Antvasima]

From memory about Marvel there's multiple other pieces of evidence that directly mentions the universe having an edge and some of the infinite statements can be considered flowery language.

I can look deeper into Friday or Saturday if that's fine with you.

There is technically also the current Reckoning War event, in which the current Marvel universe is defined as quite small and only a tenth of the size that it used to be.

 

[Confluctor]

wouldn't this also make Marvel Heralds high 3-A because they currently scale to a "shaking the universe" feat?

I could be wrong though

Either high 3a or unusable.

From memory about Marvel there's multiple other pieces of evidence that directly mentions the universe having an edge and some of the infinite statements can be considered flowery language.

I can look deeper into Friday or Saturday if that's fine with you.

I think having an edge doesn't explicitly mean = finite. Also, for the record, the universe and space is infinite, but inhabitable section of the universe can be finite. Like the cluster of galaxies and shit. but outside of that, there is infinite space and whatnot.

There is technically also the current Reckoning War event, in which the current Marvel universe is defined as quite small and only a tenth of the size that it used to be.

Proof

 

[Jibz]

following + the title to this crt is in the running for the best title ive seen on a vsbw thread.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Inb4 “muh edge!”

From memory about Marvel there's multiple other pieces of evidence that directly mentions the universe having an edge and some of the infinite statements can be considered flowery language.

Too late

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Some of the scans isnt working

 

[Qawsedf234]

think having an edge doesn't explicitly mean = finite

Personally I think it does. Infinity doesn't have an edge or limit. It just goes on forever.

Having an edge would be evidence of a physically limited space.

Also, for the record, the universe and space is infinite,

It being infinite is still under some debate afaik. Since it's based on a bend that we don't have the technology to accurately measure.

It's bigger than we say by a large amount, but it being spatially infinite still isn't mathematically provable yet.

 

[Jibz]

Someone running past an infinite space would be evidence of a physically limited space. Oh wait we call that infinite speed. That makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Proof

I don't have the time to find the exact pages where this was mentioned, but you can read it yourself if you wish. It is a small Fantastic Four-centric event.

Reckoning War

1 appearance(s) of Reckoning War 1 minor appearance(s) of Reckoning War 2 mention(s) of Reckoning War 8 article(s) related to Reckoning War

marvel.fandom.com

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I remember DC statements being brought up since 2017/2018 and never truly disagreed with this. Plus, the "100 trillion lightyears" statement isn't even someone reaching the "Edge of the Universe" and is just a baseline to how large the universe is. Also, universe can be very flexible with it's definition; it can simply mean the sea of planets and stars, it can mean the entire body of 3-dimensional space, and it can mean the space-time continuum. I wouldn't mind the 1st example being considered finite, but the 2nd example most consistently has numerous statements about being infinite.

Though, I agree with Antvasima that most "Edge of the Universe" feats would be prone to outliers, which would downgrade the likes of Superman, Wonder Woman, Doctor Fate, Orion's avatars, and various Green Lanterns. Speedsters such as Flash and Captain Zoom already have variables from Massively FTL+ to Immeasurable so I do not mind them. And as for "Universe shaking" feats, again, if it depends on just shaking all celestial bodies or the entire body of space; the latter is most definitely outliers for some and/or were likely unity based feats for others.

I also recall FanofRPGs had plans to point these details out.

 

[Maskofthedragon]

Shouldn't this be 2 separate threads?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Ah, i was already making a very similar thread.
No need now.
I agree.
Yeaaaaahhh, infinite speed thor, genuinely makes me cry

 

[Antvasima]

Also, universe can be very flexible with it's definition; it can simply mean the sea of planets and stars, it can mean the entire body of 3-dimensional space, and it can mean the space-time continuum. I wouldn't mind the 1st example being considered finite, but the 2nd example most consistently has numerous statements about being infinite.

I think that this seems like a very good point.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

the edge of the DC universe refers to the Source wall?

 

[Confluctor]

Personally I think it does. Infinity doesn't have an edge or limit. It just goes on forever.

It depends on what kind of edge you are talking about. Seeing the universe from a higher D doesn't mean it's not evidence against infinite.

It being infinite is still under some debate afaik. Since it's based on a bend that we don't have the technology to accurately measure.

It's bigger than we say by a large amount, but it being spatially infinite still isn't mathematically provable yet.

Irl uni is irrelevant, I am talking about DC and Marvel ones.

the edge of the DC universe refers to the Source wall?

Yes, which is essentially a higher D wall covering both space AND time.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't have the time to find the exact pages where this was mentioned, but you can read it yourself if you wish. It is a small Fantastic Four-centric event.

Reckoning War

1 appearance(s) of Reckoning War 1 minor appearance(s) of Reckoning War 2 mention(s) of Reckoning War 8 article(s) related to Reckoning War

marvel.fandom.com

Is somebody here willing to properly investigate this please?

 

[Confluctor]

No way I am reading a Dan slott story. Unless someone wants to pay me.

 

[Confluctor]

Some of the scans isnt working

try now?

 

[Antvasima]

It isn't a particularly bad story though, and Dan's She-Hulk run was really good. He isn't consistently a bad writer.

Is somebody else willing to investigate please?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

It isn't a particularly bad story though, and Dan's She-Hulk run was really good. He isn't consistently a bad writer.

Is somebody else willing to investigate please?

I believe you are referring to this?



Why is 1/10th of infinity not infinite?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why is 1/10th of infinity not infinite?

That's exactly the point. A 10th of infinity is still infinity. It only matters if it's finite.

 

[Confluctor]

I mean why do we assume they are talking about the entire universe when they are more or less explicitly talking about galaxies and planets.

 

[Hellbeast]

I’d also note Living Tribunal/Eternity claimed
The Universe was infinite but I’ll see if I can track down the scan

 

[Confluctor]

We already got one from captain universe, which should be more than enough. But I do recall something of that level. So, if you do find a statement from them two, that would be great, thanks

 

[Confluctor]

In infinity finale, Warlock with TLT's power also said this.

 

[Transcending]

I agree with OP

 

[Transcending]

try now?

These scans still don't work for me:

• A GL becomes one with uni and says this - The Green Lantern Corps #219
• Narration - Tales of the Green Lantern Corps Vol 1 #1
• Trigon - The New Teen Titans Vol 2 #5
• Hfuhruhurr - someone who travelled the vast cosmos -The Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #452

Kang - Kang the Conqueror #1

 

[Jibz]

Yep can confirm they do not work

 

[Confluctor]

Shit, I wil get the again.

 

[Confluctor]

I do remember updating it to imgur earlier, but looks they weren't updated? odd. but try now. should have imgur links now

 

[Transcending]

I do remember updating it to imgur earlier, but looks they weren't updated? odd. but try now. should have imgur links now

Works now!

 

[The_Impress]

This is a hella piss poor thread rn regardless FYI, you're tackling TWO UNRELATED VERSE and doing BOTH OF THEIR REVISIONS at the same time.

Either drop the DC shit from the OP or Marvel shit, and not let one verse's argument get buried by another, not everyone jams in both of their comics down their throats, thanks.

 

[Jibz]

OP probably thought this would be a simple and easy thread to do, because there are blatant statements. But i am not Con so i wouldn't know.

 

[The_Impress]

con dumm, both verses have excessively intricate and contradicting cosmological definitions that'll need discussion either simultaneously or one verse takes the backseat fir another.

Not to mention the common supporters are required to recall and not mix up mechanics of either verse while engaging, and verse exclusive supporters are just left spectators to half the discussion within the thread.

Kang - Kang the Conqueror #1

Also FYI the authority for this quote is a random tribal chick who was talking to an entirely inexperienced Kang, not legit lol

 

[The_Impress]

• Dark Phoenix saga

This is describing the timeline, not universe, infinite space and time

• Marvel Two-In-One Annual Vol 1 2

"Edge of infinity", literally, by definition, is an Oxymoron. Poetic device, ignore.

In general why do you presume this is the Universe and not Overspace?

• Fantastic Four Annual Vol 1 2001 - essentially comes from the voice of universe itself

I mean part of the issue here also is, this scan is describing Eternity who isn't = to Universe whole, really, he's very well holding sub-dimensions and realms not defined under the universe-Universe.

• Utau - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #49

...I mean he literally says Human Torch is no longer in the timeline which is being referred to as infinite, you DO know a timeline isn't the same as a Universe, right? One's Low 2-C, other's 3-A if finite

• and Fantastic Four Vol 1 50

Scan doesnt work

• Dr Doom with Beyonders powers - Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #12

Doctor Doom
Beyonder

When have these two been reliable authorities on their own power and limits my dude

In infinity finale, Warlock with TLT's power also said this.

Also referring to timeline

 

[The_Impress]

Nvm I got it to work, FF Vol 1 50, A. Uatu's very well in a position where he's required to bluff and use hyperboles, and B. "Nearly endless" and "endless" are a word off. That alone wouldn't be valid

Like I don't mind the proposal inherent, but I am genuinely puzzled af at the types of scans being brought up here, a timeline is just not a universe, and already something wiki considers Low 2-C bare minimum, and the Universe AS EMBODIED BY Eternity, which is inclusive of these timelines and a myriad of other dimensions, is 2-A to Low 1-C. Why are you using way higher structures and equating them to the core universe size? As used NO ONE HERALD has crossed it since it'd require Dimensional Travel on a multiversal scale to be feasible, hell in Eternity's case you just straight up need to be higher-D.