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Infinite Rotation High 3-A Downgrade Decision Thread (STAFF ONLY)

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In this case it would be infinity divided by infinity. Which we don't know the value to. However, we can gauge the energy to being 8-C range for harming 8-C people. The debate is not meant for here regardless, only the final statements and summaries of those debates, which should be presented by Lord. Let's just wait for him and if he fails to show up then get another supporter to take his place.
 
I'm not familiar with this portion of Jojo, but Monarch's arguments seem to make sense in this case.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Infinity/infinity = 1. No? Or is it undefined?
Click to expand...
As Kep says. We dunno, so undefined.
 
I'm agreeing more with Dargoo rn, though I want to wait for PL's summary since even as someone who participated in that thread it got kinda hard to keep track of.
 
I assumed he had seen it considering I put it in the official highlight thread, but maybe he assumed that it being staff only meant he wasn't allowed to participate and ignored it.

I'll message him.
 
Some other people messaged him a day ago without a response, but I commented and gave him the link to the thread.
 
Okay. Thank you for the help.
 
I'll preface my argument with this: admittedly JoJo's Bizarre Adventure is not the best when it comes to providing the reader explicit information. On this wiki alone we've had to argue and debate the abilities and limitations of hamon, a numerous amount of stands, ultimate lifeform (hehe) etc. So I hope this doesn't come as a shock to everyone that SBR is no exception, and Araki does not like explicitly saying "Johnny and Gyro have infinite energy attacks!".

That being said, Monarch's argument is flawed and silly to any invested reader who has given it a read through. This should be apparent from the numerous amount of discussion videos on YouTube and even the JoJo wiki itself which clearly agrees with the following sentiment: they actually do have infinite energy attacks!

Rather than make my own arguments and let staff decide which one is better (which I'd rather not do, most people tend to agree with whatever argument they can make sense of first regardless of it's authenticity and in this case it seems people have already sided with Monarch despite me not even summarizing my arguments here as asked) I'm going to go through his summary and point out why it doesn't make sense to the previously mentioned invested reader:

Monarch Laciel said:
However, every other time the word "infinity" or "infinite" has been used in Part 7, it always refers to something that continues or lasts forever rather than something with infinite power behind it. Every time the "power of infinity" that the Zepellis are trying to achieve is mentioned, it is directly linked to and stated to be only achievable by following the concept of the golden spin, which is repeatedly called as a spiral that continues "infinitely".
Click to expand...
Reading this you might be thinking "big if true" and I agree. But this piece of information is a half truth. Sure infinity has been used to describe ACT4's influence on Valentine (never-ending), and yes I am aware the golden spiral continues forever. But what matters here is context. Johnny is not being rated as high 3-A via "the golden spiral" or "never-ending affect on Valentine", he's being rated as high 3-A because he can produce an infinite amount of energy via having his horse generate infinite energy where it is then absorbed into his nails.

How do they even produce any energy? Through a technique known as The Spin (similar to hamon from part 1&2). Unlike a normal rotation The Spin is persistent and produces more energy than it takes. The reason why the golden spiral is so important in SBR is because it's a method to derive energy. Using The Spin in accordance to the golden ratio lets people "harness the power of infinity"

(Confusing, I know. Basically they make their horse generate as much Spin as possible by replicating the golden spiral, Johnny spins his weird nail bullets in accordance to it whilst Gyro spins his steelballs. All this energy is passed through them and into their weapons. This allows them to attack with the infinite rotational energies that they have generated.)

Monarch Laciel wrot-

Yes I know the counter-argument that is coming, I have seen it many times now.I bring up this scan that shows you the author explicitly stating that ACT4 is embodied by the IR's infinite rotational energy. Taking it for face value, this is a blatant high 3-A statement.

Monarch's rebuttal is that it's referring to an endless supply of energy rather than an infinite force. As in, the opponent gets hit by the IR and is now doomed to spin forever... and this sounds plausible right?

Well if that were true, then it means that every instance where the IR shot is used and an opponent is hit, they are doomed to spin forever as suggested... But this is not the case!

In actuality, the opponent only begins to spin forever as a result of being hit by TUSK ACT4. This is Johnny's stand, summoned only when Johnny perfectly emulates the golden spiral. Keep in mind that:

ACT4 =/= IR!

ACT4 is produced as a result of the infinite rotation and is unique to Johnny! Gyro instead has his own stand, Ball Breaker, and does not share the effect of causing an opponent to spin forever.

(as seen when he shoots Valentine's ear off with an IR shot and speculates that maybe doing it let him get through Love Trai,and he hits him again here with the IR as well)

Okay? Why does this matter?

Because it means we have confirmation of Gyro Zeppeli using the infinite rotation and striking Valentine with it twice. On both of those occasions not once do we see him begin to spin forever... but this directly contradicts Monarch's explanation on what the infinite rotation is. Let me remind you that Monarch said it supplies the opponent with endless energy and causes them to spin forever. If that's true, then why didn't Valentine spin forever when Gyro hit him with the infinite rotation?

Because them spinning forever is an attribute unique to ACT4! It's not an inherent mechanic of the infinite rotation. Therefore the interpretation of the infinite rotation having them "spin forever" doesn't work.

This means your interpretation is invalid, since it doesn't hold up with the infinite rotation in general and instead is a result of Johnny's stand, which causes them to spin forever. The infinite rotation having infinite rotational energy is seperate from Johnny being able to cause his opponent to spin forever.
 
In simpler terms, the infinite rotation has been described as a "power of infinity" and has a direct statement describing damage as infinite.

Since my side is more complex in thought I think it only fair for me to answer any confusion regarding the matter. If you don't understand anything I just said let me know.

That being said I feel as if I am going against a particular circlejerk regarding Monarchs opinion. I don't really expect anyone to change their point of view unless they're willing to stop siding with their friends and think for themselves.
 
Ill actually answer some common questions I heard from the last thread.

"If the IR has infinite joules why doesn't it obliterate anyone who gets hit by the attack?"

Because infinite AP doesn't mean infinite destructive capacity. It does obliterate everything it touches, it decimated D4C and Diego with no resistance, it ls just limited to a small point of contact. Think Frieezas death beam rather than a nuke.

"Why do the Zeppelis need infinite joules for execution?"

Because unlike most fiction (and more like real life) people don't get their heads chopped off in one blow. They use the energy gathered from the steelballs to galvanize them in place. This let's them focus on technique and execute them gracefully. The less energy in the steelballs, the easier it is for the person to resist and move. This is mostly because the energy from the balls is greatly entangled with gravity. (Hey, Jojo is silly you guys)

"Doesn't this mean ACT4/BB would have infinite AP?"

No their stands are summoned from the magnificence of the infinite energy that they generate, but they do not control it. I can link scans if you really want but ACT4/BB are very clearly shown as separate from the IR bullet.

They are instead used as hax and forcefully open up Love Train for their uses. ACT4's cool piece of hax is that and the ability to make someone spin forever. BB's cool piece of hax is to rapidly age someone (from what I have understood by reading the BB arc) when they are hit.
 
I think that ProfessorLord seems to make sense here. My apologies Monarch.
 
Dino Ranger Black said:
I apologize but I don't think I can give a valid response to this since I haven't reached this part yet.
Click to expand...
Most staff members are not familiar with Jojo. I don't think familiarity is a must in this thread, just appreciated.
 
-> ProfessorLord is asked to present a summary of his previous arguments

-> ProfessorLord doesn't say anything about his old arguments, makes a new argument and presents a counter to my summary.

If I wanted the debate to keep going, I wouldn't have made this thread.

However I must point out several faults in PL's arguments.

First, his new argument about horses producing infinite energy has zero evidence. Please make careful note that the statement he bolded about that has no sources directly linked to it. In other words, it's not Part 7 saying it - it's PL. If you look carefully at the subsequent scans he links, you might also notice that neither of them mention anything about horses producing infinite energy.

The scan about the golden spiral places the term 'Power of Infinity' in quotes just as I have done here. Don't be misled - this is a name, a title of the phenomena. If it was simply saying the Zepellis were striving for infinite power, there would be no quotations to make it a special term. It would just be "you should be able to harness the power of infinity the Zepellis have strived for". Instead, it makes a special effort to show that "The Power of Infinity" is a name for something they want, not a blatant statement that they want High 3-A power.

The scan about the energy moving through the body which mentions the "infinite scale" of nature is again referring to the Golden Scale / Golden Spiral / Golden Rectangle, even showing that very rectangle and the spiral moving through it right beneath the term inside the very textbox to clarify, and does not refer to some kind of High 3-A force being produced by horses.

Second, his counter point to me uses a strawman fallacy. He claims that I said "it supplies the opponent with endless energy and causes them to spin forever", so that he can proceed to throw Ball Breaker at you and show Gyro's Infinite Rotation not making people hit spin endlessly. However, I have never said that.

I have never said the Infinite Rotation as something that makes whatever is hit by it spin endlessly. I would not have said this, because I am very much aware of Ball Breaker's Infinite Rotation not having the same ability as Tusk 4. What I have said is that the Zepellis want to use the Infinite Rotation to imbue their steel balls with the ability to spin endlessly, and at a different time that phenomena produces the never-ending supply of energy necessary for Tusk 4 to make things spin forever. With this in mind, his argument collapses as there is no longer a contradiction for him to attempt to exploit.

Additionally, Professor dishonestly attempts to uses an incorrect translation in order to back up his arguments, and he knows it because we've been over it in the original thread. He uses the "the damage is likely endless" quote from Tusk 4's english description to argue that "endless damage" means High 3-A force. First the term "endless damage" more applicable to the argument of spinning around forever until your body is ground to dust and then spinning some more than to the argument of High 3-A force, but you can ignore that bit because here's the more important point.

Endless damage is never mentioned in the original japanese.

ShiroGin gave us the direct translation of the original japanese a while back.

"The spin created from horse and Johnny created infinite amount of rotational energy. It manipulates gravity, breaking dimensional barriers in the process (capable of lasting indefinitely)"

Yep, just as I suspected. Nothing in there about endless damage. And in case you think he just missed me saying this the first time, he directly quotes and replies to me saying it in the original thread. Him attempting to use the term here as part of his argument is nothing short of dishonest.

Also the bit about the executions and resisting it due to lesser energy being why they want infinite energy, PL made up. Never mentioned in the series. When Gyro's dad sticks the ball on the screaming and struggling prisoner, the victim immediately freezes and shuts up.
 
Monarch, where did you get your translation from? I ask because I can vouch for the accuracy of the Colored Adventure Team. I would not be so fast to dismiss them.
 
ShiroGinSama translated it from this .

ProfessorLord said:
Got it translated (ShiroyashaGinSan is on the official multilingual list):
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
The spin created from horse and Johnny created infinite amount of rotational energy. It manipulates gravity, breaking dimensional barriers in the process (capable of lasting indefinitely).
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
And I would be more inclined to believe the direct translation than the one given by the people trying to make it sound good and flow properly in english.
 
Also, the last thread was not conclusive on which translation to go with. From what I understood, it was a matter of conjugations or context or something, so it could go both ways. I can vouge for the general accuracy of Colored Adventure's team tho
 
Anyway, I agree that everyone should have just read the initial thread. If debate is going to continue then it should return to the other thread. I am gonna go to sleep tho
 
I also agree. I was hesitant about posting arguments here, even just as summaries, for this very reason.
 
Well, I am back to being neutral again then. My apologies that I do not have enough available time to properly make up my mind about this.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
First, his new argument about horses producing infinite energy has zero evidence. Please make careful note that the statement he bolded about that has no sources directly linked to it.
Click to expand...
Chapter 80, page 5-10. I was saying they produce infinite energy for Gyro and Johnny, it was my argument. Ask for a source and thou shall receive.

Monarch Laciel said:
I have never said the Infinite Rotation as something that makes whatever is hit by it spin endlessly. I would not have said this, because I am very much aware of Ball Breaker's Infinite Rotation not having the same ability as Tusk 4. What I have said is that the Zepellis want to use the Infinite Rotation to imbue their steel balls with the ability to spin endlessly, and at a different time that phenomena produces the never-ending supply of energy necessary for Tusk 4 to make things spin forever. With this in mind, his argument collapses as there is no longer a contradiction for him to attempt to exploit.
Click to expand...
It seems I have misunderstood then, but that is fine because this is still wrong. Gyro specifically mentions there is a specific energy obtained from following the golden ratio (ch 80 page 5). This should make it obvious that it's energy he's seeking, not the power to make their steelballs spin endlessly. If he was looking for a technique to make their steelballs spin endlessly, why would he say to Johnny (and I quote):

"If we can obtain that rotational energy from the horse..." ?

It's a contradiction from your argument of him wanting a steelball to be able to spin forever, when clearly this is him saying "nah I don't care about the spinning part I just want the energy that the golden ratio provides". Your interpretation falls apart here.

Monarch Laciel said:
"The spin created from horse and Johnny created infinite amount of rotational energy. It manipulates gravity, breaking dimensional barriers in the process (capable of lasting indefinitely)"
Yep, just as I suspected. Nothing in there about endless damage. And in case you think he just missed me saying this the first time, he directly quotes and replies to me saying it in the original thread. Him attempting to use the term here as part of his argument is nothing short of dishonest.
Click to expand...
Was not trying to be dishonest, the two translations are honestly interchangeable. But you are right, in the original it does not say endless damage... on the other hand it specifically says that it created (past-tense) infinite rotational energy/infinite kinetic energy.

(The reason I bring up tense is because you can't really use past-tense on something that is endless in a sentence if that makes any sense. By having it in past-tense, it lets us know that in that moment he already had the full extent of the energy it provides. This of course contradicts your interpretation of it being endless energy.)
 
I find it highly concerning that Monarch is accusing ProfLord of purpously using incorrect scans without backing it up. Thats a serious accusation
 
Misunderstandings happen.
 
I say this as someone who has accused someone of forging scans in the past, it is not something that you should go around accusing someone of. Issues such as this should be assumed to be an accident first
 
Not sure, there was a debate between ProfessorLord and Monarch, but the former personally terminated his own account. There was a pretty even split between who made the most sense last I checked, but I slightly leaned towards agreeing with Monarch.
 
^ ...Nedge?

And yeah I also obviously agreed with the downgrade.
 
I am not well informed enough to be of much help here. My apologies.
 
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