Important Naruto Changes

[Gwynbleiddd]

1.Naruto's Sage Mode, Nine Tails Chakra Mode and incomplete tailed beast transofrmations

Naruto in these forms is rated too high without having any feats or powerscaling to prove those stats.

The stats i propose:

Sage Mode: Attack Potency: At least Town level with Rasen Shuriken (it should be more powerful than his ordinary Rasen Shuriken which is already Small Town level+ (5.2 Kilotons and Town level starts at 5.8 kilotons) ,his physical and oodama rasengan Stats should also be looked and rated accordingly

Durability: Town level

Nine Tails Chakra Mode : Attack Potecny: At least Town level (stronger that Sage Mode)

Durability: At least Town level

Tailed Beast Transormation is rated as Mountain level for breaking Nagato's Chibaku tensei although the only thing Naruto did was stay on the surface and destroy some of the rocks that were coming towards him ,nothing close to mountain level.In his battle against Orochimaru he has some good feats that would probably place him at Multi City Block to Town level+ (though will need a calc for these)

2.Jiraiya and Minato

Their Sage Mode AP should be scaled from Naruto's Oodama Rasengan and physical stats in sage mode.

3.Nagato

Nagato's Chibaku tensei is only City level+ (around 90+ Megatons) using the scaling from my calc ,there is another calc on narutoforums that puts the size of the CT much higher which would change Nagato's AP to Small Island or Island level and his speed at High Hypersonic+ but the calc involves multiple scaling steps which would decrease the accurasy of the results.

4.Onoki

His AP is currently rated as Small City level ,but he has a much better feat which can be found here .A quick estimation of it's power using the values from my meteor blog gives Small City level for pulverization and Large Mountain level for both Vaporization and Atomization.

His Durability needs to be nerfed for 2 reasons.One he didn't completely tank Madara's meteor since Gaara was also pushing back the two meteors and when the second one hit him the first one acted as a shield.Second reason is that Island level would mean that he is more durable than Madara's Susanoo ,Hashirama's would Statues and the Tailed Beasts something that should be true due to portrayal of the characters in the story.

5.Sakura

Surprussing Tsunade a Town level Character would only make her Town level ,not Large Town level.


Sorry if this is a bit bad-written but i'm in a hurry.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I agree with all of it sans Nagato since I cant check the calc atm.

Though surpassing Tsunade, wont that make Sakura "atleast Town Level"?

 

[Comic_rider]

but it was stated that onoki could destroy turtle island if he wanted too so shouldn't that make him 6-c also didn't he lift up turtle island and fly it around as if it were nothing?

 

[Basilisk1995]

Sounds good.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Why is Sage mode so low? He obliterated City Level characters and tanked Almighty Push.

There are several calcs for Tailed Beast transformations on OBD IIRC.

I can't talk now so if necessary I'll make a proper case later.

 

[Lina_Shields]

With regards to Naruto's Nine Tails Chakra mode, this form should actually be stronger compared to Naruto's tailed beast forms (during the Pain fight) via having more control over the form, so I think the current stat for it is fine.

Also, can you calculate Onoki's atomization feat (which you predicted it to be large mountain level)? Perhaps an upgrade for Onoki is in order.

 

[Comic_rider]

Why is Sage mode so low? He obliterated City Level characters and tanked Almighty Push.
There are several calcs for Tailed Beast transformations on OBD IIRC.

I can't talk now so if necessary I'll make a proper case later.

he did i thought that was in his incomplete tailed beast mode

 

[LordAizenSama]

Why is Sage mode so low? He obliterated City Level characters and tanked Almighty Push.
There are several calcs for Tailed Beast transformations on OBD IIRC.

I don't recall Naruto tanking Shinra Tensei (in any case I wouldn't paint all of Nagato's Shinra Tensei's to be on the same scale of the one that wiped out the leaf village)

 

[AllanSaiyan]

I agree with Kkapolos suggestion on the stats.

 

[CinCameron20]

but it was stated that onoki could destroy turtle island if he wanted too so shouldn't that make him 6-c also didn't he lift up turtle island and fly it around as if it were nothing?

It wasn't stated that he would destroy the island (destroying an island of that size would actually be a small city feat using the size scaling i remember) but that he would end up killing the turtle with his dismantling jutsu.

@Kkapoios

I'd simply have Onoki listed as "Low 7-B, possibly High 7-A" until we can sort his AP out. The feat that you listed was not done by him alone. he added Tsunade's chakra into his own, but I find the feat to not be that impressive at first glance given the size of the demolished meteorites.

1. Naruto in sage mode must be far superior to his base during the Hidan and Kakuzu fight, but I do think his tier needs some re-evaluating.

2. Naruto was stated to surpass Jiraiya and Minato, though they both should still scale to him, I agree.

3. I'm not even going to discuss Nagato xD

5. Who put Sakura "High 7-C"... I think she should be placed as "At least 7-C"

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

For #5, Cin, that was something that several people including the head bureaucrat Lord Kavpeny himself had decided to put for her. Something about Sakura having been far surpassing Tsunade or whatever, i don't remember well.

The others here could probably explain this better...

 

[Alakabamm]

I only disagree on the tailed beast transformation downgrade, Naruto broke through Chibaku Tensei completely which is a technique that should be more powerful than a full power Shinra Tensei (obviously, sage doesn't scale to this because the Shinra Tenseis he faced didn't have the 10 minute or so lag time that gave Naruto time to kill the other bodies in the start of the fight).

Also, Onoki's power disintegrates on a molecular level so vaporization should be fine as a low end.

 

[Blade0886]

Molecular level? I understood that Onoki's Dust Release technique atomised people. It was clearly implied to be some sort of insta-gib that bypasses any kind of durability, much like the Gudoudama.

 

[Lina_Shields]

I thought that Onoki's power atomically breaks down materials, meaning we should use atomization as a low end?

Edit: Madara's Susanoo tanked Onoki's atomization feat just fine with Susanoo, so I'm not sure if it ignores durability.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@Alakabamm the CT is only City level+ going by my scaling and Naruto didn't even destroy the thing ,he just stayed on surface ,anyway the feat should be nowhere near mountain level.

@TheMightyRegulator i don't recall him obliderating Characters with City level durability ,and Pain's casual Shinra Tenseis are around City Block level (not so impressive).

@Comic rider it was said that Onoki would kill the turtle which by no means qualifies as Island level since a medium sized hole in its belly would do the job since it's just a living organism that can die from bleeding.

@Cross i see.

 

[Blade0886]

Edit: Madara's Susanoo tanked Onoki's atomization feat just fine with Susanoo, so I'm not sure if it ignores durability.

Well, to be fair, Susano is constituted of chakra, and not physical matter. The rules of the Dust release technique might apply differently here.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

There's also the fact that Kavpeny told me months ago that it's BS for Sakura to be any higher than Tsunade herself though, hence her current tier. Just putting out what our boss said.

Everything else that's been said here? Well have to reread the whole thing at another time.

 

[Blade0886]

I agree with Kavpeny. It's nonsense for Sakura to have been able to equal, much less surpass Tsunade. As far as I know, she just handles the side-effects of the rejuvenation technique much better than Tsunade(aka no old Sakura once she's done using the technique).

 

[Alakabamm]

@Kka, I don't think the downgrade should be to town, just city+. The technique is clearly on the level of city+ and since he broke it, he fully resisted it in the end.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Still that would only affect his 8-tailed form while his other lesser forms aren't near that strong.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Looking back at Sakura's page, apparently it states that she surpassed Tsunade. The questions for me on that is: How far did she surpass her? And, did she surpass her in physical strength or otherwise?

 

[Gemmysaur]

aka no old Sakura once she's done using the technique.
Well Tsunade is an old woman while Sakura is not so I don't see the logic much in this one.

 

[Alakabamm]

Still that would only affect his 8-tailed form while his other lesser forms aren't near that strong.

Well, yes, I agree on that

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I was referring to the paths, but then I realized Pain himself was a glass canon so, yeah. No complaints here.

 

[Blade0886]

aka no old Sakura once she's done using the technique.
Well Tsunade is an old woman while Sakura is not so I don't see the logic much in this one.

That's not the point. Tsunade has used cosmetic surgery to look young despite the fact she was 50 years old, no chakra technique was involved. Her taking the appearance of what looked like a 70-year old woman after the use of her technique is stated to be a direct side-effect due to her shortening her life-span by increasing the multiplication rate of her cells. That is something she never found a way around, unlike Sakura who just looks merely exhausted after using the technique.

 

[Gemmysaur]

~Snip

I see. My bad then.

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

@Alakabamm the CT is only City level+ going by my scaling and Naruto didn't even destroy the thing ,he just stayed on surface ,anyway the feat should be nowhere near mountain level.
@TheMightyRegulator i don't recall him obliderating Characters with City level durability ,and Pain's casual Shinra Tenseis are around City Block level (not so impressive).

@Comic rider it was said that Onoki would kill the turtle which by no means qualifies as Island level since a medium sized hole in its belly would do the job since it's just a living organism that can die from bleeding.

@Cross i see.

1) How is the Chibaku Tensei only city level+ and breaking your way out of it unimprssive when it is much larger than multiple mountains and the gravity makes it so durable that it was able to tank KN6 Naruto's Bijuu bombs ?






Your scaling is flawed because you use the assumed hight of clouds, logic by which the entire Frost country would be something like 20 or so miles large if we use the clouds around the Shinju for scaling. Instead a better way to scale is by using the Paper Tree Nagato was inside to determine the possible size of the mountains and then scale the crater. http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19929


2) How are Pain's regular Shinra Tensei only city block level when they can completely concel out Rasenshurikens and send 3 Boss summons flying multiple kilometers away, breaking every bone in their bodies in the process ?










3) Where was it stated that onoki would kill the turtle ? What was stated is that he would blow away the entire island. And he really shouldn't even need the scaling for potency since his Jinto atomized multiple of Madara's V2 Susanoo which could tank the Juubi's cataclysm.


Sorry for the derpy reply, I'm still not used to how uploading scans works here.

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

I was referring to the paths, but then I realized Pain himself was a glass canon so, yeah. No complaints here.

Why do you consider Pain to be a glass cannon ? He tanked his own Shinra tensei reflected at him by Kn6 followed by a point blank Bijuu bomb explosion and was still standing.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

We don't view the Shinra tensei's at optimum efficiency when they aren't shown the ten second recuperation time. That does make me wonder though, why don't we just calculate the feats of the stated forms instead of assuming they're town level.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@TMR: Let's go for it. *shrugs*

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

We don't view the Shinra tensei's at optimum efficiency when they aren't shown the ten second recuperation time. That does make me wonder though, why don't we just calculate the feats of the stated forms instead of assuming they're town level.

Pain was struggling to push back the Kyuubi before he sent his Shinra tensei back at him with a roar, I'd think that qualifies for an above average level Shinra Tensei, not to mention that even the regular Shinra Tensei has some pretty good feats like RS and Boss summons.

(Interstingly enough, the Kyuubi's roars also have some rediculous feats, so that should also count in addition to the Shinra Tensei impact when Pain got hit by both.)

EDITED : Nevermind, ignore the above part between parenthesis. That was not a chakra roar, my bad.

 

[Alakabamm]

@MrSoloYourFav

1. Naruto "mountains" are notoriously badly scaled by Kishi. There is nothing that can be done if there isn't a good reference.

2. Blowing apart a rasenshuriken is not the same as doing the amount of damage it deals. As for the toad thing, they did not "break every bone in their body" - they lived past that fight. We also don't know how far they flew back and the timeframe would have to be an approximation as well.

3. Atomizing requires a calc which requires an actual size, not an assumed durability based off so and so move not working on it.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I agree with everything except Large Mountain level for Onoki, he was clearly amped by Tsunade in that scene and that's not his natural power.

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

1) Everything is notoriously badly scaled in mangas,as a One Piece fan I'm sure you know this, that's hardly a reason to use something even worse badly scaled like clouds. if the argument is going to be that we should not scale stuff because of inconsistencies then by this logic we should just stop using pixel scaling to begin with.

2) Um, no you do need to apply at least just as much energy that something carries to completely concel it out, basic physics, dude. And read the scans, Gamabunta himself stated that every bone in his body was smashed, i'm not making it up. Not to mention that they were fightning in the middle of Konoha and were blasted far away from it since even team Guy took a while to get back to the village from where they found Gamabunta. In case you forgot Konoha is much larger than the 20 km wide forest of Death.

3) You can easily calc a Susanoo's durability based on tanking the cataclysm (pretty sure there are some Tenpenchi calcs out there). Destroying it would require more energy than that, vaporizing it much more energy, and atomizing it much more energy than both, which would be further boosted by the fact that there were multiple of them. We are going for the lowest of low ends here by using only a single V2 Susanoo and the tenpenchi.

 

[Alakabamm]

1) I didn't argue that. You are suggesting an assumption of mountain height. I doubt we can scale from the tree, honestly, from what I remember of how it is shown.

2) You are confusing force with energy. If every bone in his body was broken, not smashed, which, if you recall, you said broken, he would die. No clue on Konoha's size but the timeframe is still assumed and we don't know how far past Konoha some of them went. As I recall, they are all equal in mass too.

3) No. You cannot. That is calc stacking and not accepted here, nor should it be accepted anywhere. Furthermore, if you are referring to the attack I think you are, you need to consider susanoo surface area to attack surface area anyways to get durability.

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

1) I didn't argue that. You are suggesting an assumption of mountain height. I doubt we can scale from the tree, honestly, from what I remember of how it is shown.
2) You are confusing force with energy. If every bone in his body was broken, not smashed, which, if you recall, you said broken, he would die. No clue on Konoha's size but the timeframe is still assumed and we don't know how far past Konoha some of them went. As I recall, they are all equal in mass too.

3) No. You cannot. That is calc stacking and not accepted here, nor should it be accepted anywhere. Furthermore, if you are referring to the attack I think you are, you need to consider susanoo surface area to attack surface area anyways to get durability.

1) Not sure what you are getting at then. There already exists a calc that makes use of the tree hight and which I provided a link to in the original post, mind elaborating why that does not work ?

2) How am I confusing force with energy ? And I call that nitpicking, whether I say that his bones were broken or smashed you still get the point which is what matters. And, why does the time frame matter ? as long as we know that it took long enough for Narutoand Pain to have a discussion, Hinata intervene, then KN6 Vs Pain battle starts, naruto meets Minato and breaks free from the Chibaku tensei etc we know that it must have taken some time, not to mention that the mere fact that they were blasted outside Konoha is enough evidence of how far they went. Also, you don't even need to know how far each of them individually went because the only reason two of them stopped was by sinking under water and by hitting some cliffs, so the distance would not be the same.

3) How the heck is this calc stacking ? we are literally just using a calc to determine Susanoo's durability. By your logic any kind of calc that uses a character's speed durability or strength or anything to determine another's like Byakua blitzing ichigo or Luffy breaking Doffy's strings is automatically rejected because it is "calc stacking".

 

[Alakabamm]

1. I didn't see the NF link, but if necessary, yes it can be used. I apologize for not seeing it, your post is rather large.

2. The calc for the kinetic energy would require a timeframe. "Taken some time" is not a number.

3. If, by "determining anothers like Byakuya blitzing" you are referring to the practice of using random multipliers and not just powerscaling, then yes, that is the exact definition of calc stacking. Susanoo's durability has very little to do with how it can be calculated, or how its feats may be calculated. It can be scaled, but trying some justification of insane material properties is calc stacking.

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

1. I didn't see the NF link, but if necessary, yes it can be used. I apologize for not seeing it, your post is rather large.
2. The calc for the kinetic energy would require a timeframe. "Taken some time" is not a number.

3. If, by "determining anothers like Byakuya blitzing" you are referring to the practice of using random multipliers and not just powerscaling, then yes, that is the exact definition of calc stacking. Susanoo's durability has very little to do with how it can be calculated, or how its feats may be calculated. It can be scaled, but trying some justification of insane material properties is calc stacking.

1) No problem. I'm still not used to the interface so my post was a mess.

2) What kinetic energy ? What we are talking about here is the fact that they were blasted far enough for team guy to take some time to reach Konoha after meeting Gamabunta. The time frame of how long it took team guy to reach Konoha is mostly irrelevant because it is only a way to show that they are not within the village's immediate vicinity, which also should not even matter as long as we know that they got blasted outside Konoha to begin with, which seems like a good enough feat to me. If you need a time frame for how long they were sent flying then I can't give you an accurate one, nor do I see why I need to as it would be complete nonsense for it to have taken more than a few seconds because by the time Naruto and co realized that they were blasted by Pain the summons had already reached their respective spots, I'm sure that you can determine energy using the distance instead anyway.

3) Where in my post did I even mention any kind of multiplier ? And how and why is any of what I am saying is making use of "insane material properties". What I am saying is literally "Susanoo tanked the Tenpachi, but Onoki's dust release destroyed it". that's literally it. In no way, shape or form is what I am using unreasonable calc stacking at all. This is very much the same as determining "Luffy's attack power as X for breaking Doffy's strings which could tank Y". Just replace the variables with with Susanoo and tenpenchi instead. There is nothing suspicious going on here.

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, I think Madara's susanoo would probably be scaled higher than what we would get with Onoki, unless you mean the turtle thing.

As for the energy of the frog push, it would probably have to be using KE over any method because once they collide with the ground, they transfer energy to it and then it just becomes indeterminate overall.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@Mr.SoloYourFav

1.The calc from narutoforums uses multiple scaling steps which decrease the accuracy of the results.

2.Pain's casual shinra tensei that sent the 3 toads flying is around City Block level by using projectile motion (Multi City Block level at best) ,it doesn't matter if it broke their bones or not.

3.KN6 Naruto's roar ,bijuu bomb are around Multi City Block to Town level.

4.The mountains you are refering to are hills

5.The tenpechii is has a large area of effect and Madara was far from its center meaning that only a small fraction of it's total energy actually hit susanoo.