Important Naruto Changes

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

@Alakabamm : I don't really get what you are trying to say here. The original force was provided by Pain's Shinra Tensei, and stuff like air resistance, collision with the ground or friction would be applying a counter force hence decreasing the original force till eventual stop and not the other way around. Basically it means that the frogs would have been sent flying a much larger distance if it wasn't for these factors.

@KKapois :

1) How ? We have a clear shot of all the stuff they used for scaling, all that remains is to determine the size of that tree which is easily scaled. No matter how you look at it this is by far a more accurate and reasonable approach then "I'll just assume that this cloud is that high because reasons".

2) That does not make any freaken sense. We are talking about an attack that sent multiple massive toads flying kilometers away right through mutiple city blocks worth of debrees and broke the bones of Gambunta who tanked attacks like this :


3) Define "town level" because this is the size of the blast of that Bijuu bomb compared to the 20 KM large forest of death on the top right :





4) Based on what ? Literally every single mountain we have seen in the series looked exactly like that.

5) This doesn't make any sense either. Madara was practically standing right besides of the Juubi when the tenpenchii occured and even if we assume that he was not, the tenpenchi still destroyed multiple dozens of mountains reaching, at least, all the way to the original fighting spot of the Bijuu Vs Killer B and Naruto. So your argument doesn't stand either way.

 

[Alakabamm]

You say we can determine energy via "distance." The answer is not really, because they didn't fly until the energy dispersed. So yes, we can get a lower bound but never the true value.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

1.Actually we don't have a clear shot ,the mountain with the tree on top is far from the mountains on the panel with the Chibaku tensei.Multiple scaling steps do decrease the accuracy of the results ,if you don't believe me you are free to ask the rest of the calc group.

2.Their bones where probably broken when they hit the ground at high speeds ,again the energy required to throw the toads 2.5 km (which is the radius of Konoha) is only City Block to Multi City Block level.

3. 20 km ? The blast was inside the crater of Nagato's ultimate Shinra Tensei ,ChaosTheory123 calced the crater to be around 5 km in total and the blast is around 1/3 of that ,which is 1.66 km

4.Still that doesn't prove the so called "mountains" are actual mountains

5.I will look for some scans from the manga ,but due to problems with my PC i will probably post them tommorow.

 

[LeopoldTheBrave]

I'm all for the changes. No complaints here... but how would this effect the rest of the verse who rely on power scaling to these character? Like Sasuke for example. Would he be effected any?

 

[Zerzavyx98]

Those are definitely mountains... They're elavated high from the ground. They might just look like hills because in the shot the angle is from far away, a bit below and the mountains are curving on the edge of the skyline.

.... Nevermind, confirmed hills:Different view

 

[SwordSlayer99]

3. 20 km ? The blast was inside the crater of Nagato's ultimate Shinra Tensei ,ChaosTheory123 calced the crater to be around 5 km in total and the blast is around 1/3 of that ,which is 1.66 km

That 20km number comes from this scan, where it says that the radius of the forest of death is 10km. And the forest of death can be compared to Konoha in the second scan.

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

@Alakabamm : That's not what I said (Though I don't see why it wouldn't work).

What I say is that you can easily determine the energy based on the Shinra Tensei canceling the RS. Since we know that the winner of a jutsu clash is decided by 3 factors.

1) Spacial recomposition : Obviously goes to the RS since Rasengan is known to be the jutsu with the highest shape manipulation while the Shinra tensei has no special shape and seems more like a raw omnidirectional blast.

2) Elemental supiriority : Obviously plays no role here since the element with supiriority to wind is fire, and shinra tensei is not made of fire.

By elemination this only leaves the 3rd factor and which is the amount of chakra poured into the jutsu which must be high enough to make up for the Sinra tensei's inferiority in the first domain.

KKapois :

1) Which is why the calc maker went for a low end measure by using the largest mountain around the crater. Again, you keep on calling it multiple steps scaling but it is obvious to everyone that any kind of calc is going to use multiple steps for scaling, that is neither a reason to ignore the calc nor to cherrypick whitchever value you want for the clouds and apply that as an even more flawed scaling logic instead.

2) More flawed logic. For one the radius of Konoha cannot be 2.5 km since we have on panel evidence of it being much larger than 20 km. And second, the frogs could not have been sent flying only right outside Konoha because it took team guy a while to reach the village after meeting Gamabunta and finally you are completely ignoring the fact that the Shinra tensei is what propelled them hence is what provided the kinetic energy as well how it was powerful enough to send them flying not just that distance but through multiple obstacles such as the rubble, Konoha's wall and all the way to wherever they stopped.

3) Yeah, let's just ignore the scans showing the KN6 blast compared to the forest of death. I mean, why not.

4) Perhaps not but it shows how the burden of proof is on you, because if all other showings of mountains were similar to this one then you are the one who needs to provide evidence to claim otherwise.

5) Take your time

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

Those are definitely mountains... They're elavated high from the ground. They might just look like hills because in the shot the angle is from far away, a bit below and the mountains are curving on the edge of the skyline.
.... Nevermind, confirmed hills:Different view

Any reason why you think these are the same hills/mountains ? The shape seems different and you can see the Konoha village walls in the background wheras Pain went quite a bit away from the village when KN6 was chasing him.

 

[Alakabamm]

Mr. SoloYourFav, that is all postulation about how the attack works and nothing substantial. It is also not how energy works in real life. Again, equal and opposite forces cancel, but energy is another level of discussion. In this case, there is not sufficient reason to believe that is the case.

 

[Zerzavyx98]

Those are definitely mountains... They're elavated high from the ground. They might just look like hills because in the shot the angle is from far away, a bit below and the mountains are curving on the edge of the skyline.
.... Nevermind, confirmed hills:Different view

Any reason why you think these are the same hills/mountains ? The shape seems different and you can see the Konoha village walls in the background wheras Pain went quite a bit away from the village when KN6 was chasing him.

That was in comparison to the Shukaku photo, + by the time Pain was fighting Naruto the village walls were wiped

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

The first time the toads reach the ground is at Konoha's walls ,it's just like throwing a ball ,it doesn't stop after hitting the ground the first time.

Why don't you ask the rest of the calc group about the Chibaku tensei calc.Also i didn't cherrypick the values for the clouds ,it was the only thing scalable on the scan and i used a low mid end for the clouds height.

Your logic is flawed ,what makes the forest 20 km? There are calcs from on of the most experienced calcer on Narutoforums that put Konoha at that size.If it was stated on the manga that the forest is that big i'm afraid that scaling > statements (for example statements such as Los Noches would require a week to cross while it is only 6 to 7 km long)

The burden of proof is on both of us not just me which is something you seem to fail to understand ,you can't just say mountains on Naruto all have the same shape so these are some kilometer high mountains (that's real cherry picking)

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

@Alakabamm :

How is any of what I am saying a postulation ? All I did was quote the canon manga facts we were given.






@ Zerzavyx98 : Like I said, the hills in the Shukaku scans look nothing like the mountains in the CT scans. So if anything this should prove that Kishi draws mountains and hills differently further supporting the point.





Also notice how in the Shukaku scans the hills are shorter than the village walls and the village walls were not destroyed by Pain, there will only be an opening where Gamabunta got pushed through later, so they would have been visibly higher than hills yet they are not:




Not to mention that it was stated that Pain was getting away from the village when KN6 was chasing him.




@ Kkapoios "The first time the toads reach the ground is at Konoha's walls ,it's just like throwing a ball ,it doesn't stop after hitting the ground the first time."

Except that frogs are not made of plastic for the bouncing to be significant without a significant force to begin with. And you are completely overlooking the scans where it was shown that Gamabunta kept going despite hitting buildings, the village walls as well as through the friction with the ground till he reached a forest far from the village later on:




"Why don't you ask the rest of the calc group about the Chibaku tensei calc.Also i didn't cherrypick the values for the clouds ,it was the only thing scalable on the scan and i used a low mid end for the clouds height."

I don't know who your calc group is, nor do I see why what they have to say would hold more weight than what the creator of the calc I provided does. Unless you plan to rely on argumentum ad populum to justify your position. And clouds are far from being a scalable element in Naruto, unless you are also going to argue that the Shinju is only 6-7 km tall which would put the frost country at 15-20 km large which would make the rest of the Naruto plant something like 200 km in diameter :




"Your logic is flawed ,what makes the forest 20 km? There are calcs from on of the most experienced calcer on Narutoforums that put Konoha at that size.If it was stated on the manga that the forest is that big i'm afraid that scaling > statements (for example statements such as Los Noches would require a week to cross while it is only 6 to 7 km long)"

My logic is flawed because I am using the canon manga facts provided by the very writer of the story who established the size of the forest instead of your assumptions and pixel scaling about clouds being whatever hight you want to use for scaling instead ? Well, sure why not. lol

And your example is beyond flawed.

1) A week is a measure of time not distance. Unlike 20 km.

2) It was never stated that Las Noches would take a week to cross and we have seen multiple characters Flash step through it in minutes/seconds.

3) What was stated is that it would take 3 days to reach the Gate to Las Noches, and what you people like to conveniently forget is that "Gates" in Hunco Mondo refer to underground tunnels that could literally be placed anywhere away from the buildings and Niel was even pointing away from Las Noches when she made the statement further justifying the point.




"The burden of proof is on both of us not just me which is something you seem to fail to understand ,you can't just say mountains on Naruto all have the same shape so these are some kilometer high mountains (that's real cherry picking) " Nowhere did I say that all mountains have the same shape so these are some kilometers high mountains, I already posted the scaling to support the size, what I am saying is that these are moiuntains, not hills like you claim. While what you are doing is basically looking at a car and telling me that it is a bike, for no reason.

 

[Alakabamm]

What you posted is not evidence for your claim. The rasenshuriken is a wind-type jutsu, what pain uses is a manipulation of "gravity" or "force" - simply put, it has no element. I can understand why clashes of two jutsu of the same type would result in the stronger one overpowering the other but in this case there is no reason to assume they clashed like that. Furthermore, because energy doesn't work like that, you don't even get the benefit of the doubt.

As for your concerns regarding the calc group, calcs from other forums are not automatically accepted here even if they are accepted there. Hence, before a calc from another forum is accepted here, it needs to be reviewed and accepted by the calc group.

That's not to say I oppose your scaling. I have not even looked at it yet. I'm simply saying those are the rules we have here.

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

@Alakabamm :How does that even work ? The first scan explains how spacial recombination serves to increase the power of a jutsu, the second scan explains how elemental superiority works on jutsus of the same level and the final scan explains how chakra is the deciding factor in case none of the two clashing jutsus hold an elemental advantage over the other.

Now go back and check the RasenShuriken Vs shinra tensei and you will notice how RS obviously has no superior shape manipulation or elemental advanatge, so what other way is there for it to stop the RS ?

Honestly I can't believe that we are discussing whether or not you the Shinra tensei to be more powerful for it stop the Rs... I thought that would be common sense, like pretty much every other jutsu in the series.

And how does energy even work according to you then ?

Also what is this calc group and what calc of the Chibaku tensei have you been using so far ?

 

[Alakabamm]

By dispersing it? Like is shown on panel? There's also the fact that your "evidence" here refers to attacks being reflected back at the opponent, which is clearly not the case here. Besides, the rasenshuriken doesn't get its staying power in its compressed form.

The calc group are the members that do calcs for the community and verify calcs coming into the community. The group also helps out with calcs by other members and offers critiques and advice for those members. For a calc that is not done by a calc group member or outside heavily verified source, it is a requirement to be seen by the calc group.

I have no clue what calc is being used for CT. It appears to be Small Island Level though, which seems about right for the size...

 

[Alakabamm]

Also, just of note, but:

Sage Mode Naruto Rasenshuriken > Timeskip Naruto Rasenshuriken which oneshot Kakuzu.

By your logic, one shinra tensei oneshots Kakuzu....yea...

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

@Alakabamm :

"By dispersing it? Like is shown on panel? "

That does not answer the question. I'm not asking you what the Shinra Tensei did to the RS I am asking you how it could stop it.

"There's also the fact that your "evidence" here refers to attacks being reflected back at the opponent, which is clearly not the case here. "

In case you didn't pay enough attention. it is clearely marked that "sometimes" it is possible to do so, not that it will automatically happen, and according you Yamato that only happens if your element has the advanatge other the other.

"Besides, the rasenshuriken doesn't get its staying power in its compressed form."

What does that even mean ?

"

The calc group are the members that do calcs for the community and verify calcs coming into the community. The group also helps out with calcs by other members and offers critiques and advice for those members. For a calc that is not done by a calc group member or outside heavily verified source, it is a requirement to be seen by the calc group.

I have no clue what calc is being used for CT. It appears to be Small Island Level though, which seems about right for the size.."

OK thanks. "Also, just of note, but:

Sage Mode Naruto Rasenshuriken > Timeskip Naruto Rasenshuriken which oneshot Kakuzu.

By your logic, one shinra tensei oneshots Kakuzu....yea... "

Kakuzu has 0 durability feats by himslef. His "durability" comes from the fact that he can switch the mask hearts and reattach his body with threads. So yes a Shinra Tensei would very well smash his masks to peices.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

1.I doesn't matter that the toads aren't made out of plastic ,every object will keep bouncing (cars crashing at high speeds and pretty much any object thrown with a sufficent force)

2.The statement that it would require a week to cross can be translated into distance ,an enormous distance by the way even using an average human walking speed.

3.I won't discuss the calc further with you ,it's obvious that we disagree and we won't reach an agreement ,that's why i'm telling you to contact the rest of the calc group .

 

[Alakabamm]

I don't agree on your Shinra Tensei scaling logic with reference to Kakuzu. That wouldn't make sense. Even Kakashi could take a couple before he got wrecked.

As for the rasenshuriken, I am saying that the rasenshuriken is a mass of condensed, spinning energy...if you stop the rotation, the attack stops. This is not some strange mechanic. It makes perfect sense that all he did was oppose the spinning force, which has nothing to do with the damage the attack can do. Shinra Tensei is even just a "force" attack by itself.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I agree with Alakabamm ,you don't even to stop it ,just change its rotation a bit so that it loses stability.

 

[Mr.SoloYourFav]

@KKapoios :

"1.I doesn't matter that the toads aren't made out of plastic ,every object will keep bouncing (cars crashing at high speeds and pretty much any object thrown with a sufficent force) "

Keywords : "Sufficient force". And I like how you ignore the rest of the factors such as getting blasted through multiple obstacles.

"2.The statement that it would require a week to cross can be translated into distance ,an enormous distance by the way even using an average human walking speed. "

Except that the interpretation of the statement is fundamentally flawed like any real Bleach fan could tell you.

"3.I won't discuss the calc further with you ,it's obvious that we disagree and we won't reach an agreement ,that's why i'm telling you to contact the rest of the calc group . "

We can agree to disagree, I don't see any harm in that.

@Alakabamm :

"I don't agree on your Shinra Tensei scaling logic with reference to Kakuzu. That wouldn't make sense. Even Kakashi could take a couple before he got wrecked. "

Because Pain wanted him alive for interrogation ? And its not like every Shinra Tensei has the same power. I really don't see what the problem is here.

"As for the rasenshuriken, I am saying that the rasenshuriken is a mass of condensed, spinning energy...if you stop the rotation, the attack stops. This is not some strange mechanic. It makes perfect sense that all he did was oppose the spinning force, which has nothing to do with the damage the attack can do. Shinra Tensei is even just a "force" attack by itself. "

Come now, are you seriously telling me that Pain studied the complex rotation of the Rasenshuriken which not even Kakashi's Shringan could keep track of per his own statement and then determined the exact pattern he needed to apply his Shinra Tensei in and successfully performed the feat of using a spinning Shinra Tensei in perfect opposition to the RS's own spinning while a rasenshuriken was a few feet away from his face ? You know that isn't realistic.

 

[Alakabamm]

I know that scaling Naruto's best attack that he can only use three times in Sage Mode to Pain's casual attack is really bad logic, yes.

 

[Zerzavyx98]

Stopping rasenshuriken's rotation won't kill off its damage or force. The attack its self actually grow immensily stronger when it stops and place to expand, seen in EVERY rasenshuriken throw ever.

 

[Alakabamm]

Naruto in Sage Mode can control when they explode. In this case, he didn't and Pain just dispersed it. There is nothing to say his dispersal actually supplies the same energy at all and the fact that pre-Sage Mode rasenshurikens were UNSTABLE tells me that dispersing one is not difficult nor should require completely countering it with an equivalent amount of energy.

 

[Raito_Utopia]

I do not know why Kurama is 6A tier , when it is stomped by alive madara and hashirama ?

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Kurama is 6-A only with Naruto's Six Paths chakra ,otherwise he is "only" Small Island level.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Kkapoios: Shouldn't Kurama be High 6-A instead of 6-A as indicated in his profile? He should be comparable to The Last Naruto at least.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

He is High 6-A

 

[KamiYasha]

I got something more to add to this revision (maybe).

This Juubi's Tenpenchii Calc (Don't know if the calc is fine)

Madara was pretty close to the juubi like less than 30 meters, and he tanked that thing with his incomplete susanoo.

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, again, tanking has more to do with the surface area of an attack vs the surface area of the person receiving it. The Tenpenchii is super huge so its probably negligible. There is also the fact that the Tenpenchii calc is a huge lowball because it is impossible to calculate all the energy required for its formation.

 

[KamiYasha]

I was referring to the mushroom/nuke at the end of the calc, not the whole calc.

 

[Alakabamm]

Ya know, after looking up cloud shapes, I am under the impression that it wasn't a nuke.

Take a look at the shape: http://i.imgur.com/2DsOjSz.jpg

Now look at a storm cloud (c. nimbus): http://i.stack.imgur.com/O2s15.jpg