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Acasuality type 2 is contradicted by the existence of Classic Sonic as well
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If they were temporally omnipresent at all times, they would have appeared as a straight line which isn't the case, right? It means the meteor was fired only for those 3 points in time where Solaris was fighting. At least without making any kind of massive assumptions just going by what is shown and known. Which would mean they wouldn't need immeasurable speed to dodge it.The meteors have the exact same position when you switch between hogs so seems very likely that they’re temporal omnipresent meteors rather than individual meteors fired at different points in time.
They would only appear as a straight line to finite speed beings. Not immeasurable speed beings since those are faster than the causality which makes the past versions of the meteor instantly appear in the present.they would have appeared as a straight line which isn't the case, right?
Your argument's error is that you keep assuming he was only fighting in "x" points, Solaris state of being is being temporal omnipresent, that's literally what Eggman says Solaris powers come from his physiology, not some ability he can turn off or limit, meaning that you are the one making the assumption that he can just "stop" being in all time, when the plot shows it's something native of Solaris, to add one of his attacks is firing lasers from his body, since Solaris is in all of time, so would the lasers be since they are attached to his bodyIf they were temporally omnipresent at all times, they would have appeared as a straight line which isn't the case, right? It means the meteor was fired only for those 3 points in time where Solaris was fighting. At least without making any kind of massive assumptions just going by what is shown and known. Which would mean they wouldn't need immeasurable speed to dodge it.
Your original reasoning was this. If the hogs had immeasurable speed then it wouldn’t visually be a straight line, if it was fired at 3 individual points in time, then it wouldn’t be a straight line. In other words it not being a straight line does not prove nor disprove anything. Refer to User’s argument for why it wouldn’t be just 3 individual points in time though.If they were temporally omnipresent at all times, they would have appeared as a straight line which isn't the case, right?
CIS/PIS, many things that should happen while making sense often don't happen in fiction.Also even if Solaris could only fire individual attacks rather than temporal omnipresent ones? What stops him from just shooting meteors consecutively in every point in time, essentially replicating the undodgeable line?
And it was debunked several times by several people, Solaris was not in the place where the intersection happened, please do not just state wrong arguments withou any backing to themAlso, it's already brought up that all time and space is in shambles during the fight. Which time fluctuates nonlinearly and everyone appears to exist in the same time periods.
Just because the attacks are shown existing at multiple points in time, that doesn't mean their speed is immeasurable. What's being described for Solaris's attacks sounds more like an ability rather than a speed based feat.
I don't know what you're asking here?What is describing Lasers being an ability than a form of Attack from Solaris' physiology?
Agreed. Would be quite dumb to argue Solaris’ attacks are immeasurable when instead you can argue the hedgehogs are immeasurable in speed for scaling to omnipresent attacks and Solaris just scales to them. Not like I just said this to DDM.Just because the attacks are shown existing at multiple points in time, that doesn't mean their speed is immeasurable. What's being described for Solaris's attacks sounds more like an ability rather than a speed based feat.
We are arguing that his attacks are omnipresent, not immesurable, I think you missed the pointJust because the attacks are shown existing at multiple points in time, that doesn't mean their speed is immeasurable. What's being described for Solaris's attacks sounds more like an ability rather than a speed based feat.
And apologies, I had been writing that post a bit earlier in the thread and didn't read up before posting itAgreed. Would be quite dumb to argue Solaris’ attacks are immeasurable when instead you can argue the hedgehogs are immeasurable in speed for scaling to omnipresent attacks and Solaris just scales to them. Not like I just said this to DDM.
Are you aware that Solaris is currently accepted as fully temporal omnipresent and that the lasers he uses to attack the 3 hedgehogs who are located in 3 different time periods are attached to his body and look exactly the same in the 3 time periods?Oh, in that case, definite no on immeasurable. What was being described above is semi-omnipresence and even then, if the attacks are shown moving across any form of distance then immeasurable speed wouldn't be needed to avoid them.
We are saying they are temporarly omnipresent, not spacialyOh, in that case, definite no on immeasurable. What was being described above is semi-omnipresence and even then, if the attacks are shown moving across any form of distance then immeasurable speed wouldn't be needed to avoid them.
For one, yes and that's all fine but that still doesn't mean avoiding the attack requires immeasurable speed. If it's only temporally omnipresent and is portrayed moving over a distance within a given timeframe then there is no way you would need to be immeasurable to avoid it.Are you aware that Solaris is currently accepted as fully temporal omnipresent and that the lasers he uses to attack the 3 hedgehogs who are located in 3 different time periods are attached to his body and look exactly the same in the 3 time periods?
Are you also aware that DDM is proposing to add several abilities to the hedgehogs such as acausality type 2 for them to even have a chance to dodge said attacks and that thus just having finite speed with no abilities is not an option?
And that's why I said semi-omnipresence.We are saying they are temporarly omnipresent, not spacialy
RepostingSolaris at the year -1 million can shoot a meteor that 5 seconds later arrives (year -1 million + 5 seconds) at the space Sonic will be standing approximately 1 million years later. This attack will thus reach Sonic's location a million years before he has the chance to react to it (even if it uses finite speed), since the attack is temporal omnipresent, it'll thus hit Sonic in the present and is thus unavoidable for someone with finite or even infinite speed, since present Sonic can only dodge the present version of that meteor, not the past version.
The other argument is that all of Solaris' states are true at the same time thus him simply turing around will make the core of his body unreachable for the hedgehogs' attacks. They need to blitz him before Solaris in the past can turn around, which can only be done with immeasurable speed.
I probably explained it more in-detail in my previous replies.
The way they are shown does not contradict the hedgehogs having immeasurable speed. Like I said the attacks would scale to the hedgehogs’ immeasurable speed and thus blitz their own causality (since the hedgehogs also need to blitz the causality of the attacks since they are temporally omnipresent)if the attacks are shown moving across any form of distance then immeasurable speed wouldn't be needed to avoid them.
That's circular scaling.The way they are shown does not contradict the hedgehogs having immeasurable speed. Like I said the attacks would scale to the hedgehogs’ immeasurable speed and thus blitz their own causality (since the hedgehogs also need to blitz the causality of the attacks since they are temporally omnipresent)
It is not, again. I am merely explaining that your argument is wrong not that mine is right. You can not draw conclusions from the attacks seemingly moving at finite speed since the attacks would look the exact same if the hogs had immeasurable speed and the attacks scaled to them. Actually that’s untrue, they’d only look the way they do when they have immeasurable speed, otherwise they’d be a straight line (talking about the meteors).That's circular scaling.
They do. All the states that the attack will ever have are all true at the same time and this is instantly the case due to causality, that is undodgeable with anything but immeasurable speed.temporal omnipresent attacks don't require immeasurable speed to avoid.
You do know that an attack that gets fired 1 million years in the past to where Sonic will be standing a million years from then. Will reach that space after a few seconds, however that attack is still temporally omnipresent and Sonic wouldn’t have had time to dodge yet since this is happening in the past and will instantly reach where Sonic is standing in the present. You can basically see it as the present moment that keeps being overwritten, first the attack is where Solaris is, but then the present gets overwritten by the meteor moving in the past and it is now 1 infinitesimal distance further, and so on until it reaches Sonic. So while from an outside perspective you could say that the attack has a travel speed (say looking at it from the second temporal dimension), from finite speed hedgehogs’ perspective it wouldn’t and all these states of the meteor would be happening at the same time (each overwrite would be visible since they all affect the present). Essentially getting a meteor on their face before they move.This is because the attack itself while occurring over multiple areas in time at once, is shown a clear progression in it's movement.
What you're describing is an attack that is both spatially and temporally omnipresent.You do know that an attack that gets fired 1 million years in the past to where Sonic will be standing a million years from then. Will reach that space after a few seconds, however that attack is still temporally omnipresent and Sonic wouldn’t have had time to dodge yet since this is happening in the past and will instantly reach where Sonic is standing in the present. You can basically see it as the present moment that keeps being overwritten, first the attack is where Solaris is, but then the present gets overwritten by the meteor moving in the past and it is now 1 infinitesimal distance further, and so on until it reaches Sonic. So while from an outside perspective you could say that the attack has a travel speed (say looking at it from the second temporal dimension), from finite speed hedgehogs’ perspective it wouldn’t and all these states of the meteor would be happening at the same time (each overwrite would be visible since they all affect the present). Essentially getting a meteor on their face before they move.
I hope I made myself clear this time. If not then imma start drawing, and trust me or ask User, things tend to get ugly when I draw.Mostly because I suck at drawing.
Well the way being described that "Past Sonic would still be hit" still sounds like it's Type 1 Acausality.
But the way he structured his example he provided would mean Future Sonic would also be hit.Your argument only works if you assume that Sonic only exists in the present,
^I vouch for this.Greenshifter can probably explain this with his drawings™