Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[Theuser789]

Acasuality type 2 is contradicted by the existence of Classic Sonic as well

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I've been watching this CRT very closely and while I too like giving my favourite characters new P&A (I added stuff to Blaze's profile after a different CRT was approved), I prefer accuracy (or at least consistency) more.

According to the criteria, for a non-omnipresent character to fight an omnipresent being without having immeasurable/infinite speed (that was approved by staff) you need either:

*Dimensional travel; which is explicitly shown in game that's not what the super hedgehogs used against Solaris (despite already having that ability) and has been disproved in previous posts.

*Cosmic Awareness/Omni-AoE attacks; none of the super hedgehogs actually used AoE attacks against Solaris moreover according to the description of CA it would be useless against Solaris plus it was disproved in previous posts.

*Acasualty; as already mentioned above the super hedgehogs having type 2 is contradicted by the events of Sonic Generations which funny enough outright shows 06 took place with the existence of Crisis City (as a tidbit Sonic actually remembers "dying" in 06 in TSR JP) plus it would take a MASSIVE assumption to give them type 4 (last time I checked giving characters P&A based on assumptions is a big no-no and flies in the face of being consistent).

Tl;dr Overall either the (peak) super forms have immeasurable speed OR the (peak) super forms have finite speed and we have to make assumptions about how they reacted Solaris' attacks.

 

[AKM sama]

The meteors have the exact same position when you switch between hogs so seems very likely that they’re temporal omnipresent meteors rather than individual meteors fired at different points in time.

If they were temporally omnipresent at all times, they would have appeared as a straight line which isn't the case, right? It means the meteor was fired only for those 3 points in time where Solaris was fighting. At least without making any kind of massive assumptions just going by what is shown and known. Which would mean they wouldn't need immeasurable speed to dodge it.

 

[Greenshifter]

they would have appeared as a straight line which isn't the case, right?

They would only appear as a straight line to finite speed beings. Not immeasurable speed beings since those are faster than the causality which makes the past versions of the meteor instantly appear in the present.

 

[AKM sama]

That reasoning is iffy because you are first assuming the conclusion itself to be true to justify something that should ideally lead to the conclusion later. Meaning more assumptions.

 

[Theuser789]

If they were temporally omnipresent at all times, they would have appeared as a straight line which isn't the case, right? It means the meteor was fired only for those 3 points in time where Solaris was fighting. At least without making any kind of massive assumptions just going by what is shown and known. Which would mean they wouldn't need immeasurable speed to dodge it.

Your argument's error is that you keep assuming he was only fighting in "x" points, Solaris state of being is being temporal omnipresent, that's literally what Eggman says Solaris powers come from his physiology, not some ability he can turn off or limit, meaning that you are the one making the assumption that he can just "stop" being in all time, when the plot shows it's something native of Solaris, to add one of his attacks is firing lasers from his body, since Solaris is in all of time, so would the lasers be since they are attached to his body

Here you can see his attack is still the same in future and present

 

[Greenshifter]

If they were temporally omnipresent at all times, they would have appeared as a straight line which isn't the case, right?

Your original reasoning was this. If the hogs had immeasurable speed then it wouldn’t visually be a straight line, if it was fired at 3 individual points in time, then it wouldn’t be a straight line. In other words it not being a straight line does not prove nor disprove anything. Refer to User’s argument for why it wouldn’t be just 3 individual points in time though.

Also when Silver TK’s a meteor back to Solaris and you switch between hogs you can also see that same meteor going back to Solaris IIRC. Don’t know if this changes anything though.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also even if Solaris could only fire individual attacks rather than temporal omnipresent ones? What stops him from just shooting meteors consecutively in every point in time, essentially replicating the undodgeable line?

 

[AKM sama]

Also even if Solaris could only fire individual attacks rather than temporal omnipresent ones? What stops him from just shooting meteors consecutively in every point in time, essentially replicating the undodgeable line?

CIS/PIS, many things that should happen while making sense often don't happen in fiction.

 

[Greenshifter]

... Assuming PIS/CIS just to say it’s not immeasurable. I’d understand if there was something indicating PIS/CIS, but there isn’t...

In fact you’re arguing your own assumption to be true and then saying that when logically the opponent should be more potent than what you portray him as, it’s CIS/PIS. Making 2 assumptions. Meanwhile I’m saying they have immeasurable speed, which is 1 assumption (at most) and everything else flows naturally from it.

May I also remind you that Solaris is a genius since Mephiles is his mind. So saying he wouldn’t do optimal plays because of CIS/PIS is quite a huge assumption since the entire game is about him making optimal plays and manipulating everyone to do his bidding, heck he even successfully killed Sonic because of this.

 

[Theuser789]

The lasers being attached to Solaris body who is naturally onmipresent through time because of his physiology debunks any "PIS"

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The problem is that Immeasurable speed is the biggest assumption of them all; it is true that Solaris can always pick a starting period for any of his attacks, but that doesn't mean it covers all time and space. Also, there's not really moving faster than the second temporal dimension; it's omnipresent on the first then doesn't occupy the second. It's like (Omnipresent, 0) starting point and (Nonexistent, 0) reaching point. But then I'll use the 5 seconds example it's and after it makes it's destination its (Nonexistent, 5) from the starting point and (Omnipresent, 5) at the reaching point. Now if we assumed the distance was multiple lightyears; it would still be Massively FTL+ attack speed combined with Omnipresent AoE. It wasn't traveling through two or more temporal dimensions like a spatial dimension simultaneously like DT agreed it's be infinitely above baseline Immeasurable. But it's just Omnipresent thus already there and immobile as far as the first temporal dimension is concerned but still traveling at finite speeds on the distance over 2nd time.

Also, it's already brought up that all time and space is in shambles during the fight. Which time fluctuates nonlinearly and everyone appears to exist in the same time periods.

 

[Theuser789]

Also, it's already brought up that all time and space is in shambles during the fight. Which time fluctuates nonlinearly and everyone appears to exist in the same time periods.

And it was debunked several times by several people, Solaris was not in the place where the intersection happened, please do not just state wrong arguments withou any backing to them

 

[Greenshifter]

@DDM could you rephrase that? Cause while I appreciate you using multiple temporal dimensions to explain it, I think it kinda misses the point...? From what I’m getting you’re arguing that Solaris’ attacks don’t have immeasurable speed? But that’s kinda irrelevant when we’re saying that to dodge temporal omnipresent attacks from Solaris (which is sorta what you’re implying with involving a second temporal dimension) you need immeasurable speed and Solaris just scales.

 

[Duedate8898]

Just because the attacks are shown existing at multiple points in time, that doesn't mean their speed is immeasurable. What's being described for Solaris's attacks sounds more like an ability rather than a speed based feat.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Just because the attacks are shown existing at multiple points in time, that doesn't mean their speed is immeasurable. What's being described for Solaris's attacks sounds more like an ability rather than a speed based feat.

What is describing Lasers being an ability than a form of Attack from Solaris' physiology?

 

[Duedate8898]

What is describing Lasers being an ability than a form of Attack from Solaris' physiology?

I don't know what you're asking here?

 

[Greenshifter]

Just because the attacks are shown existing at multiple points in time, that doesn't mean their speed is immeasurable. What's being described for Solaris's attacks sounds more like an ability rather than a speed based feat.

Agreed. Would be quite dumb to argue Solaris’ attacks are immeasurable when instead you can argue the hedgehogs are immeasurable in speed for scaling to omnipresent attacks and Solaris just scales to them. Not like I just said this to DDM.

 

[Theuser789]

Just because the attacks are shown existing at multiple points in time, that doesn't mean their speed is immeasurable. What's being described for Solaris's attacks sounds more like an ability rather than a speed based feat.

We are arguing that his attacks are omnipresent, not immesurable, I think you missed the point

 

[Duedate8898]

Oh, in that case, definite no on immeasurable. What was being described above is semi-omnipresence and even then, if the attacks are shown moving across any form of distance then immeasurable speed wouldn't be needed to avoid them.

 

[Duedate8898]

Agreed. Would be quite dumb to argue Solaris’ attacks are immeasurable when instead you can argue the hedgehogs are immeasurable in speed for scaling to omnipresent attacks and Solaris just scales to them. Not like I just said this to DDM.

And apologies, I had been writing that post a bit earlier in the thread and didn't read up before posting it

 

[Greenshifter]

Oh, in that case, definite no on immeasurable. What was being described above is semi-omnipresence and even then, if the attacks are shown moving across any form of distance then immeasurable speed wouldn't be needed to avoid them.

Are you aware that Solaris is currently accepted as fully temporal omnipresent and that the lasers he uses to attack the 3 hedgehogs who are located in 3 different time periods are attached to his body and look exactly the same in the 3 time periods?

Are you also aware that DDM is proposing to add several abilities to the hedgehogs such as acausality type 2 for them to even have a chance to dodge said attacks and that thus just having finite speed with no abilities is not an option?

 

[Theuser789]

Oh, in that case, definite no on immeasurable. What was being described above is semi-omnipresence and even then, if the attacks are shown moving across any form of distance then immeasurable speed wouldn't be needed to avoid them.

We are saying they are temporarly omnipresent, not spacialy

 

[Duedate8898]

Are you aware that Solaris is currently accepted as fully temporal omnipresent and that the lasers he uses to attack the 3 hedgehogs who are located in 3 different time periods are attached to his body and look exactly the same in the 3 time periods?

Are you also aware that DDM is proposing to add several abilities to the hedgehogs such as acausality type 2 for them to even have a chance to dodge said attacks and that thus just having finite speed with no abilities is not an option?

For one, yes and that's all fine but that still doesn't mean avoiding the attack requires immeasurable speed. If it's only temporally omnipresent and is portrayed moving over a distance within a given timeframe then there is no way you would need to be immeasurable to avoid it.

For two, I don't agree with that idea if that's what's is being proposed because none of that is needed to avoid the attack. Just normal dodging with speed below infinite should cover that

 

[Duedate8898]

We are saying they are temporarly omnipresent, not spacialy

And that's why I said semi-omnipresence.

 

[Greenshifter]

Solaris at the year -1 million can shoot a meteor that 5 seconds later arrives (year -1 million + 5 seconds) at the space Sonic will be standing approximately 1 million years later. This attack will thus reach Sonic's location a million years before he has the chance to react to it (even if it uses finite speed), since the attack is temporal omnipresent, it'll thus hit Sonic in the present and is thus unavoidable for someone with finite or even infinite speed, since present Sonic can only dodge the present version of that meteor, not the past version.

The other argument is that all of Solaris' states are true at the same time thus him simply turing around will make the core of his body unreachable for the hedgehogs' attacks. They need to blitz him before Solaris in the past can turn around, which can only be done with immeasurable speed.

I probably explained it more in-detail in my previous replies.

Reposting

 

[Greenshifter]

if the attacks are shown moving across any form of distance then immeasurable speed wouldn't be needed to avoid them.

The way they are shown does not contradict the hedgehogs having immeasurable speed. Like I said the attacks would scale to the hedgehogs’ immeasurable speed and thus blitz their own causality (since the hedgehogs also need to blitz the causality of the attacks since they are temporally omnipresent)

 

[Theuser789]

Exactly what Greenshifter is saying, he already adressed on why the attacks need immesurable speed to be dodged, it feels like every staff arguing agaisnt is making all different arguments, making the other side disorganized

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah I’m pretty sure AKM agrees with immeasurable speed if proven that Solaris’ attacks are temporal omnipresent, then DDM seems to be more arguing for abilities such as acausality type 2 and dimensional range, the former being contradicted by the existence of classic sonic. And Duedate is arguing you can just dodge omnipresent attacks with finite speed without any abilities which contradicts what’s currently on the speed page regarding omnipresence. And funnily enough no-one addressed my argument of Solaris’ core being unreachable in phase 2.

 

[Duedate8898]

The way they are shown does not contradict the hedgehogs having immeasurable speed. Like I said the attacks would scale to the hedgehogs’ immeasurable speed and thus blitz their own causality (since the hedgehogs also need to blitz the causality of the attacks since they are temporally omnipresent)

That's circular scaling.

And once again, temporal omnipresent attacks don't require immeasurable speed to avoid.

This is because the attack itself while occurring over multiple areas in time at once, is shown a clear progression in it's movement.

 

[Greenshifter]

That's circular scaling.

It is not, again. I am merely explaining that your argument is wrong not that mine is right. You can not draw conclusions from the attacks seemingly moving at finite speed since the attacks would look the exact same if the hogs had immeasurable speed and the attacks scaled to them. Actually that’s untrue, they’d only look the way they do when they have immeasurable speed, otherwise they’d be a straight line (talking about the meteors).

temporal omnipresent attacks don't require immeasurable speed to avoid.

They do. All the states that the attack will ever have are all true at the same time and this is instantly the case due to causality, that is undodgeable with anything but immeasurable speed.

 

[Theuser789]

H-he literally just explained why, can you explain why he is wrong instead of just saying he is?

 

[Greenshifter]

This is because the attack itself while occurring over multiple areas in time at once, is shown a clear progression in it's movement.

You do know that an attack that gets fired 1 million years in the past to where Sonic will be standing a million years from then. Will reach that space after a few seconds, however that attack is still temporally omnipresent and Sonic wouldn’t have had time to dodge yet since this is happening in the past and will instantly reach where Sonic is standing in the present. You can basically see it as the present moment that keeps being overwritten, first the attack is where Solaris is, but then the present gets overwritten by the meteor moving in the past and it is now 1 infinitesimal distance further, and so on until it reaches Sonic. So while from an outside perspective you could say that the attack has a travel speed (say looking at it from the second temporal dimension), from finite speed hedgehogs’ perspective it wouldn’t and all these states of the meteor would be happening at the same time (each overwrite would be visible since they all affect the present). Essentially getting a meteor on their face before they move.

I hope I made myself clear this time. If not then imma start drawing, and trust me or ask User, things tend to get ugly when I draw. Mostly because I suck at drawing.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

It's time to explain King Crimson's ability

 

[Duedate8898]

You do know that an attack that gets fired 1 million years in the past to where Sonic will be standing a million years from then. Will reach that space after a few seconds, however that attack is still temporally omnipresent and Sonic wouldn’t have had time to dodge yet since this is happening in the past and will instantly reach where Sonic is standing in the present. You can basically see it as the present moment that keeps being overwritten, first the attack is where Solaris is, but then the present gets overwritten by the meteor moving in the past and it is now 1 infinitesimal distance further, and so on until it reaches Sonic. So while from an outside perspective you could say that the attack has a travel speed (say looking at it from the second temporal dimension), from finite speed hedgehogs’ perspective it wouldn’t and all these states of the meteor would be happening at the same time (each overwrite would be visible since they all affect the present). Essentially getting a meteor on their face before they move.

I hope I made myself clear this time. If not then imma start drawing, and trust me or ask User, things tend to get ugly when I draw. Mostly because I suck at drawing.

What you're describing is an attack that is both spatially and temporally omnipresent.

When something is temporally omnipresent, it only exist across all of time meaning that the space it inhabits is capable of changing. So to avoid it, you just have to move out of that space its aiming for before it gets there. And unless its speed is infinte or immeasurable already, you yourself don't have to either of those things to avoid it.

 

[Theuser789]

Your argument only works if you assume that Sonic only exists in the present, because past Sonic would still be in the attack's range and therefore Sonic would still get hit because the attack would always hit past Sonic because the attack exists in all of time, going to the left wouldn't work. Greenshifter can probably explain this with his drawings™

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well the way being described that "Past Sonic would still be hit" still sounds like it's Type 1 Acausality.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Well the way being described that "Past Sonic would still be hit" still sounds like it's Type 1 Acausality.

Your argument only works if you assume that Sonic only exists in the present,

But the way he structured his example he provided would mean Future Sonic would also be hit.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Future Sonic getting hit also wouldn't be an issue tbh; if there's more than one future sonic based in timeline shenanigans. Unless Solaris actively uses Fate Manipulation, which I'm assuming he doesn't given he doesn't have it on his profile. It's Past Sonic would be who to worry about.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Greenshifter can probably explain this with his drawings™

^I vouch for this.

**** the crt, I wanna see the drawings.