Immeasurable Bill Cipher has Blaring Problems

[MaybeWantsToEdit]

The CRT that discussed this is here.

Now I wasn't online when this was being discussed so kind of annoying to maybe have to change this so recently, but the issues are so blatant I kind of have to say something about this.

Let's see the scans the CRT gives for Immeasurable speed Bill.

Bill states he can navigate through li ear chronology.

This... this means nothing. It means Bill has the ability to do this. AKA Time Travel. The thread from what I've read's only argument for this is that Bill only has Time Manip after Weirdmageddon, but Time Travel and Time Manip are completely separate powers.

"that stupid triangle had used my body to travel through time and destroy the entire universe -- and Time Baby, too!"

OK so Bill can do this in the Dreamscape/Mindscape too. I'd like to mention that Gravity Falls constantly showcases moving and travelling through time, through the power of Time Travel. Not through sheer speed. Nothing in these two scans imply any of this was through sheer speed. It's literally just a new power we know Bill has. I'm so confused as to how this was accepted when the scan doesn't even support the claim. Was there something I missed when skimming through the thread???

 

[RanHover60]

Idk if it makes a difference but I feel like there’s a difference between navigating through linear chronology and navigating beyond it which is what the scan says.

 

[TheShape03]

Bill states he can navigate through li ear chronology.

This... this means nothing. It means Bill has the ability to do this. AKA Time Travel.

Bill had no control over time before he gained his physical form, so...

The thread from what I've read's only argument for this is that Bill only has Time Manip after Weirdmageddon, but Time Travel and Time Manip are completely separate powers.

Both are about controlling time, just in different ways, Bill claimed to have no control over time before he gained his physical form.

So, none of this is time travel because it contradicts Bill's statement.

Bill also sees time as physical, stating that it has a radius and a perimeter.

 

[ShionAH]

What? Bill had to go to the future to even possess Blendin, he then used Blendin's technology to travel through time. This does not mean Bill time travels with abilities that statement is about Blendin's technology because he straight up says he cannot control Time.

like @TheShape03 said Bill sees time as physical, stating that it has a radius and a perimeter.

 

[StrymULTRA]

but Time Travel and Time Manip are completely separate powers.

Not in the context of Gravity Falls where Bill explicitly calls a time power what's implied to be time travel (I reffer to to the "thwarting your plans before you think of them, which kinda implies time travel).

Plus yeah, Bill also implied that he sees time as a physical distance when he reffers to years as measurable in light years.

 

[MaybeWantsToEdit]

Idk if it makes a difference but I feel like there’s a difference between navigating through linear chronology and navigating beyond it which is what the scan says.

Time itself is constantly linear. Moving beyond linear time just seems like they're able to move outside of just going forward like what time does. Which is just time travel.

What? Bill had to go to the future to even possess Blendin, he then used Blendin's technology to travel through time. This does not mean Bill time travels with abilities that statement is about Blendin's technology because he straight up says he cannot control Time.

like @TheShape03 said Bill sees time as physical, stating that it has a radius and a perimeter.

Bill himself is still in the dreamscape. Chances are he just needed a vessel like Blendin to do stuff with including time travel, since things that happen in the dreamscape can't really physically affect characters in the real world.

I see in the scan that Bill knows this is how time worked in the verse and specifically the areas of time the Time Baby's goons operated in, but idk if this means that this is how Bill is able to see time willy nilly. Characters knowing something that they cannot see doesn't mean they can see those things. Take like most things in astronomy that we know for example, or Black holes before they were captured on camera.

I also don't see how Time Travel and Time Manipulation are directly related. They can be applications of one another perhaps, like Time Manip being used on someone to send them somewhere else in time, but in 99% of cases in fiction, Time Travel is simply just the ability to move around to different points of time, instead of controlling how time itself works. It's exclusive to applying it to yourself to move around to different points.

When Bill was showing off his new ability to control time during weirdmageddon, he used it to slow down time around him and slow down the time of nearby birds. Just seems like he gained the ability to control it for basically anyone and anything else, like how usual instances of Time Manip work.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I also don't see how Time Travel and Time Manipulation are directly related. They can be applications of one another perhaps, like Time Manip being used on someone to send them somewhere else in time, but in 99% of cases in fiction, Time Travel is simply just the ability to move around to different points of time, instead of controlling how time itself works. It's exclusive to applying it to yourself to move around to different points.

Not in the context of Gravity Falls where Bill explicitly calls a time power what's implied to be time travel (I reffer to to the "thwarting your plans before you think of them, which kinda implies time travel).

Plus yeah, Bill also implied that he sees time as a physical distance when he reffers to years as measurable in light years.

Blud dodging.

 

[ShionAH]

I see in the scan that Bill knows this is how time worked in the verse and specifically the areas of time the Time Baby's goons operated in, but idk if this means that this is how Bill is able to see time willy nilly.

Bill literally sees Time itself as a physical distance, calls it a radius. Your argument flops like a fish because you did not really reply nor debunk this actually you straight up said you don’t know. So please make an actual respond

 

[Homie890]

Blud dodging.

Blud dodging like sans dodging these knifes slashes

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Honestly the OP isn't very compelling. Disagree FRA

 

[MaybeWantsToEdit]

Blud dodging.

The scan itself just has Bill talk about a bunch of different time and age-related abilities the group is capable of doing. Because they're the high-tech time police. I dont exactly know why this is being argued in this since it's not implied they're directly tied to some kind of overall Time Manipulation power or whatever the time police possess. They're just a bunch of random powers they have access to, kind of like how the military has access to explosions and fire.

Bill literally sees Time itself as a physical distance, calls it a radius. Your argument flops like a fish because you did not really reply nor debunk this actually you straight up said you don’t know. So please make an actual respond

When I said "but idk" I was saying that in the sense that I don't think that's enough to confirm that Bill sees time that way.

Correction to my own comment: I don't think Bill being able to know how time is like in his world means he sees it like that all the time. It just means he knows that somehow. How characters in Gravity Falls deduced time was akin to space more than previously thought? It's ambigious but that doesn't directly mean characters just physically are able to see time like it's physical space. Nothing in the scan "literally" says or shows he sees time like this.

Basically, I'm saying there should be more evidence to prove that characters are able to view time in such a way. From what I'm reading it just seems like the characters are just operating to work within a billion year area in the timeline radius. It could be kind of implied if you can see it that way but honestly Bill just seems to be referring to time like this because that's just how time is in GF, and Bill is just indirectly dropping lore on how time works.

 

[Robo432343]

ford should have immeasurable speed because he reacted to bill and was comparable to him in speed

 

[ShionAH]

ford should have immeasurable speed because he reacted to bill and was comparable to him in speed

Actually, Bill is in love with Ford and holds back all the time against him hoping he'll join his gang.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

It does feel kinda double standard-ry that Bill can get Immeasurable speed despite all his anti-feats, when DB can't cause of its anti-feats tho

 

[StrymULTRA]

The scan itself just has Bill talk about a bunch of different time and age-related abilities the group is capable of doing. Because they're the high-tech time police. I dont exactly know why this is being argued in this since it's not implied they're directly tied to some kind of overall Time Manipulation power or whatever the time police possess. They're just a bunch of random powers they have access to, kind of like how the military has access to explosions and fire.

What? "Thwarting your plans before you think about them" is textbook Time Travel... How else can you interpret it?

It does feel kinda double standard-ry that Bill can get Immeasurable speed despite all his anti-feats, when DB can't cause of its anti-feats tho

I hope this is you just trolling. Because it's literally explained in-verse.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I hope this is you just trolling. Because it's literally explained in-verse.

Both the Dreamscaperers and Shacktron fights aren't really, neither is Bill struggling to catch Dipper and Mabel

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

neither is Bill struggling with catching Dipper and Mabel

He already blized Dipper before tho (Or is average human speed Bill a option)

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Or is average human speed Bill a option

They're Relativistic (Plus the DB anti-feats that stop them from being Immeasurable are also leagues below the speeds we list for em, but those be the rules)

 

[ShionAH]

Both the Dreamscaperers

In Dreamscaperers Dipper Mabel and Soos all literally had infinite Reality Bending powers.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Both the Dreamscaperers

He was just testing them.

Shacktron fight

Shacktron just scales. If you mean the Wendy/Rumble fighting against the minions, I can just argue that's an outlier for them because:

1. It's a cartoon.
2. The writers just thought it'd look cool, not caring of how consistent it is.

They're Relativistic (Plus the DB anti-feats that stop them from being Immeasurable are also leagues below the speeds we list for em, but those be the rules)

Blame Dragon Ball for being a longer series and actually treating time periods as relevant here. Gravity Falls has only few outliers.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

hey're Relativistic

Okay, this should be removed. Even subsonic speed for them is sus lol

Plus the DB anti-feats that stop them from being Immeasurable are also leagues below the speeds we list for em, but those be the rules

Idk about DB, but Bill is not slower than Dipper, thats for sure

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay, this should be removed. Even subsonic speed for them is sus lol

If your argument is going to be "is too fast" (when we have like, 4 feats) then this might shock you.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I miss Eficiente

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Actually, Bill is in love with Ford and holds back all the time against him hoping he'll join his gang.

I condemn

Anyways disagree FRA, all of the counterarguments are just speculations and whataboutisms instead of actual refutations tbh.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh I in the next CRTs I am planning (when Ultima will unlock the thread tho) I do want to rewrite generally both AP and speed justifications, as I know they look pretty meh right now.

 

[ShionAH]

I miss Eficiente

YOU WILL NEVER SEE 4-A BILL EVER AGAIN.

DEAL. WITH. IT.

 

[StrymULTRA]

YOU WILL NEVER SEE 4-A BILL EVER AGAIN.

Or Low 2-C Undertale.

Or 10-C Timmy Turner.

Or Low 2-C DDLC (oh wait, only MES is above that tier).

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

YOU WILL NEVER SEE 4-A BILL EVER AGAIN.

DEAL. WITH. IT.

Who said that I agree with 4-A Bill lol

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

He was just testing them.

I don't see where that's said? Bill just said that he's impressed and that he now thinks that they might come in handy later, his prior reactions sure imply otherwise anyway

Shacktron just scales. If you mean the Wendy/Rumble fighting against the minions, I can just argue that's an outlier for them because:

1. It's a cartoon.
2. The writers just thought it'd look cool, not caring of how consistent it is.

Eh, we see the cast do way too many actions during the fight for me to think the Shacktron actually has Immeasurable speed,
honestly think it'd be better to just have Shacktron being able keep up with Bill be the outlier itself.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't see where that's said? Bill just said that he's impressed and that he now thinks that they might come in handy later, his prior reactions sure imply otherwise anyway

Oh wait nvm, they're scaled to Immeasurable in the Mindscape lmao.

honestly think it'd be better to just have Shacktron being able keep up to Bill be the outlier

Or maybe... Pilots just don't scale to the speed of their mecha?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Or maybe... Pilots just don't scale to the speed of their mecha?

I don't think this really applies to Shacktron, cause again, Stan legit tries to escape as Zanthar is charging at the mecha.
Shacktron isn't even really shown to be as fast as Bill either, Bill can throw dozens of punches before the Shack can throw one.

 

[ShionAH]

Stan legit tries to escape as Zanthar is charging at the mecha.

Are you serious?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Getting Immeasurable is like getting Supergenius, it has far more scrutiny than MFTL+ or any other rating really, that's basically what I'm getting at

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think this really applies to Shacktron, cause again, Stan legit tries to escape as Zanthar is charging at the mecha.

Powerscalers when animators do not have the tools to properly decipt speed and just go by what the plot demands.

Are you making a fuckload of excuses only because Dragon Ball can't have it? Because you've admitted yourself above and now I'm having a hard time believing you're not biased.

Edit: Fsr I read Ford instead of Stan. My guy are you actually seriously using a gag? No like, this is just desperate at this point.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

That could be it, yeah. Don't think Undertale had any problems getting Immeasurable, maybe the scrutiny is DB exclusive, I dunno lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

That could be it, yeah. Don't think Undertale had any problems getting Immeasurable, maybe the scrutiny is DB exclusive, I dunno lol

I fail to see how Undertale and Dragon Ball can be remotely be equated to Gravity Falls:

• UT's case is exclusively for the God Tiers, and none has showcased to scale to Peak Frisk outside of Asriel and Chara/Player, with the former fighting only that Frisk, and latter two only retroactively scaling coz DT levels.
• DB's case is due to time limits being pretty prominent like across the whole series, never because of far weaker characters managing to fight back few times.

Don't make this kind of dumb comparisons that don't make any sense.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Undertale can be kinda equated to Gravity Falls, remember the Lost Souls?

 

[StrymULTRA]

They were amped from Asriel, they can literally harm Frisk lmfao.

Like come on dude.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Kinda like how the Henchmaniacs were amped?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Kinda? They were visibly amped from Bill there, so I don't see an issue.

If we exclude the Bendy/Rumble managing to fight against them by themselves, almost every other anti-feat was either de-contextualized or explained anyway, making that a simple outlier.