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Illumina Major Downgrade Part 2

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Looking at the video, the introduction of the 4th Dimension; it looked like they were merely traveling through outer space. And those "Worlds" appear to be inside these bubbles. They don't looks like Infinite sized universes. Also, 4th Dimensional Space was the only dream that appear to have many stars or galaxies; and those same galaxies appeared to be overwhelmingly bigger than all those other "Dreams". Furthermore, Zamasu does make a good point that each and every dream is still miniscule compared to 4th Dimensional Space. And once again, the Maginary World; aka the entirety of the world containing all dream worlds put together, is the only one outright stated to be a universe.

"4th Dimensional Space" in itself even sounds like a fancy name. And using that as a source for the Dreams being 4-D is kind of the same thing as saying Dimentio has a 1-B feat because he teleported the party to "12th dimensional space".

And I agree with Shake and was the reason I had the OP statement in bold.
 
The characters can go inside the dreams, the size in the cutscenes isn't their real size, it's more like portals, and they aren't in space.

False analogy, Dimentio is a know liar, unlike Lummina.

There's galaxys in Fire Bird
 
The "Worlds" in Super Mario Galaxy 2 each multiple galaxies you can travel to with your ship through regular flight and you travel to each World through portals, but they aren't confirmed to be universes. And I know they dreams aren't just planets and some have multiple stars inside them. But having different day and night cycles also doesn't prove them being different timelines. For example, Pluto's days are 6 times longer than Earth's and a year is 248 times longer.

No one is saying the individual dream worlds are only planets, but the problem is not a single one of them aside from the entirety of the Maginary World is proven to be a universe. Also, 4th Dimensional Space is also said to be bigger than the other worlds as well as "Contains" the other Dream Worlds.
 
The 4th dimension doesn't contain the dreams, it's made of the dreams, it's never said to be bigger

The worlds in Mario Galaxy are only called that in the world map like every Mario game in existance since Super Mario Bros. for the NES, it's not a good comparassion.

This really reminds me of the zone downplay in Archie
 
Being made of dreams often interpreted as the existence of multiple dreams is the reason for why it exists. This has nothing to do with Archie Sonic, just Game Sonic. But I should remove that category since Cal had that as one of his topics as a mistake. Containing multiple stars or even a galaxy doesn't automatically prove that they're universes.
 
Yes the fourth dimension is made of the dreams, that's what Lummina says: " It's also a very fragile world made of dreams". It's also the dream world that Illumina dreamed of

It's similar because this line of logic makes people think that the zones aren't universes because It can refer to geografical áreas, just like what happens.

There's also the fact that the dreams are paralel dimensiona to Sonic's as said by Oblivion, just like Blaze's
 
Parallel dimension doesn't always mean universe either; the realms from Zelda are stated to be parallel dimensions but they aren't considered Universes. And same with Aether from Metroid Prime 2, that also exists across two parallel dimensions isn't considered universal feats when the 2nd parallel dimension is destroyed or Dark Samus surviving the collapse.
 
Except that they are specificaly called paralel to Sonic's World, not just paralel, it's the same thing as Blaze's dimension, Illumina's dream world is also specificaly refers to universe: A statement saying that Maginary World is a Universe:https://share.icloud.com/photos/0-B1stNNTW1UgR7ZE5HcQjKZwb So if Illumina's own dream which is Maginary World is Universe sized then all other dreams be Universe sized as they all exist separately from Maginary World and are seperate dreams on their own.Stating that Maginary World is different from the other dreams is false as the precious stone affects all these dreams the same,like when Void broke the stone which threatened to destroy all the dream realms.Also a head canon that the dreams are in different scales is inaccurate based on the person dreaming them is headcanon unless proven otherwise.
 
"Parallel" simply means it exists side by side and faces the same direction. The definition alone has nothing to do with size. The dimension that contains Dark Aether was stated to be parallel to the Universe where Light Aether exists, but Dark Aether's Mass Energy Conversion followed by the Pocket Reality collapsing on her is still not Universal. And said Universe is said to be Infinite in size, but no one is High 3-A just yet.

And again, not every use of World or Dimension in Sonic means Universe. There've been times where World simply meant planet. And Sonic Rush is different; that one actually had other showings and statements about it being a Universe. Maginary World only has a showing or statement that the entirety of it is the Universe. None of the individual Dreams have any clear cut statements about them being universes. And it's only stated then exist separate from each other; all of it is literally inside Maginary World. That scan was brought up before multiple times, it once again only says Maginary World is a Universe parallel to Sonic's World, not any of the individual dreams inside it.
 
Oblivion is not gonna be happy

-Why are we going back to parallel and 4D space? we can move past that as it's not even the main topic against the upgrade

-Has anyone actually read TGGP?The Omniverse Orbs aren't portals but merely pocket realities that contain infinite universes and dimensional planes(a 1-A structure).It's the same scenario here but on a far smaller scale as the universe size dreams are pocket realities that are universe in size.As proven several trillion times.Yes we know world does not equal universe,No that has no prevalence to the point

-Illumina dreamed Maginary World which is universe in size so what's to say all other dreams being dreamed of other beings is the same without bringing in some form of headcanon

-To debunk this you would have to prove that there's a statement saying the dreams are different in size.Until then they are considered universes
 
Neon Battle Bind said:
Oblivion is not gonna be happy

-Why are we going back to parallel and 4D space? we can move past that as it's not even the main topic against the upgrade

-Has anyone actually read TGGP?The Omniverse Orbs aren't portals but merely pocket realities that contain infinite universes and dimensional planes.It's the same scenario here as the universe size dreams are pocket realities that are universe in size.As proven several trillion times.Yes we know world does not equal universe,No that has no prevalence to the point

-Illumina dreamed Maginary World which is universe in size so what's to say all other dreams being dreamed of other beings is the same without bringing in some form of headcanon
Click to expand...
This, Illumina's dream is a universe, so the rest also are, there's no proof that Illumina's dream is diferent.

The 4th dimension is made of dreams, DDM comparasions aren't valid, citing what happens on diferent franchises without context isn't a argument
 
If the same series has an example of "X dimensional space" being used on a non-higher dimensional context, I don't see any reason to automatically assume "4th Dimensional Space" refers to something 4D.
 
Misread DDM's post about Dimentio and thought he meant Solaris teleporting the party to a 12-D space. RIP.

Ignore my comment. Will be neutral on this until further notice, since I am not knowledgeable enough on the new games to give my opinion.
 
Well the new games have nothing to do with this. The most recent game that has anything to do with this was released in 2006.

Even after all this, we still have the revisions dealing with Low 2-C base archie sonic, a single emerald having a calced 5-B feat from unleashed and probably a bunch of other stuff. Sonic revisions never end
 
The comparassion with Dimentio isn't even acurate, that's just a throwaway line versus the game itself calling it as well a trustable character.

Dimentio also talks in metaphors, the 12th dimension thing is probaly another one
 
The Smashor said:
Well the new games have nothing to do with this. The most recent game that has anything to do with this was released in 2006.

Even after all this, we still have the revisions dealing with Low 2-C base archie sonic, a single emerald having a calced 5-B feat from unleashed and probably a bunch of other stuff. Sonic revisions never end
Click to expand...
Sonic for me died in the late 90s
 
You do realize that you're main argument is an undistributed middle fallacy right? You're saying that all dreams are universes because the Maginaryworld is called a universe and is a dream. That's like saying Kami has reality warping because he's a God like Chakravartin, who is also a god. Or a simpler example, it's like saying all stars are the same size because they're called stars.

The Maginaryworld is different from other dreams because it's the only thing that contains the dreams; It's the only thing that holds the Precious Stone; It's the only dream called a universe; And the Maginaryworld was made by a literal dream Goddess. There's no way in hell the Maginaryworld is relative to or even remotely similar to regular dreams.

I told you guys over and over that the fire Bird is a dream and it's just a plane. If one of them is only a plane then they can definitely vary in size.

The dreams don't contain galaxies. They're never shown within dreams only in the Maginaryworld itself. The dreams don't even contain stars. It may look that way but the stars you see in the Maginaryworld are just illuminating through the dreams.

When Lummina said the dreams exist separately, she didn't mean the dreams exist on a separate plain of existence from the Maginaryworld because it's said more than once that the dreams are contained in the Maginaryworld, so they're in the same plain of existence.

So a recap, the dreams aren't universal and some can vary in size, being as small as a plane; Stars and galaxies are all over the Maginaryworld, outside of dreams, and are shown to be bigger than the dreams themselves; dreams are only called worlds, which is a fallacious name; Maginaryworld is the only thing called another dimension or a universe.

I'm tired of this shit tbh and I'm reaching my breaking point.
 
Honestly, saying the Dreams are universes because Maginary World is a universe is like saying Earth is a galaxy because Milky Way is a Galaxy. And I agree that "4th Dimensional Space" is just a fancy name for the outer space of Maginary World. Though, calling the dreams 2-dimensional is quite excessive; I'm pretty sure some of them do have stars. But they is no proof that they're universes.

But I more or less agree with everything else Zamasu said.
 
Infinite dreams I can't deny them Infinity is hard to comprehend

I couldn't hear those screams Even in my wildest dreams

Suffocation waking in a sweat Scared to fall asleep again Incase the dream begins again

Someone chasing I cannot move Standing rigid nightmare's statue What a dream when will it end & will I transcend?

Restless sleep the minds in turmoil One nightmare ends another fertile Getting to me so scared to sleep But scared to wake now, in too deep

Even though its reached new heights I rather like the restless nights It makes me wonder it makes me think There's more to this I'm on the brink

It's not the fear of what's beyond It's just that I might not respond I have an interest almost craving But would I like to get too far in?

It can't be all coincidence Too many things are evident You tell me you're an unbeliever Spiritualist? well me I'm neither

But wouldn't you like to know the truth Of what's out there to have the proof & find out just which side you're on Where would you end in Heaven or in Hell?

Help me, help me to find my true Self without seeing the future Save me, save me from torturing Myself even within my dreams

There's got to be More to it than this Or tell me why do we exist

I'd like to think that when I die I'd get a chance another time & to return & live again Reincarnate, play the game Again & again & again & again
 
Fire Bird has a galaxy dude, and you haven't proved that those stars aren't part of the dreams world, repeating yourself a thousand times doesn't make it true.

All dreams are equal, you are making it from diferent franchises, dreams are the same, it doesn't matter who dreams, they are your aspirations.

When it was said that Marginary World holds all dreams? It keeps being repeated like it's a fact without any proof, all dreams exists separately, since Marginary World is also a dream it exists separately from the others

The dreams still make the 4th dimension, the Dimentio comparasion isn't valid.

It seems that the only arguments of the oposition is make comparassions between franchises that aren't valid

Stars of diferent sizes are still stars, the same to universes

Worlds with more than a planet mean that it refers to universes, they are the aspirations of people.
 
Stop using the circular reasoning fallacy, that galaxy is the level select screen you go into that galaxy for every level. I also find it hypocritical that you use the galaxy as evidence but when I debunked your claim and use the evidence against you, you just say I'm nitpicking. It's also an Occam's Razor because you're assuming that each level has its own galaxy because of level select. I'm just saying that most of the dreams are located in that cluster because that's where they always go when entering a dream.

You're still using the undistributed middle fallacy, you need to give actual proof that they're all equal.

"Maginaryworld is a dream world created from the dreams of people in other dimensions through the power of the Precioustone, and contains parts of everyone's dreams. There are countless locations in Maginaryworld. Besides regular locations, other worlds created from people's dreams exist within Maginaryworld."

And if the dreams are separate the Maginaryworld, why are they shown inside it? This is also an association fallacy, you're assuming that all dreams are exactly the same size just because they have the same qualities.

The 4th dimension is flowery language, it's never once called a dimension. It's just a quadrant of the Maginaryworld.

> It seems that the only arguments of the oposition is make comparassions between franchises that aren't valid

How ironic when you and Oblivion do the same thing by having TGGP as your main argument. How hypocritical.
 
The galaxy isn't from the level select, we already debunked that.

That just says that Marginary World is made from other dreams, not that they are all conyained in it, It even says that it contains part of everyone dreams, not them fully.

Why would I assume that a dream is diferent from each other? This is just like the zones in Archie

The name literaly says that's a dimension, are you even reading what you say?

I never used TGGP as a argument, read my posts.

If it's the same galaxy it would show the levels close to each other, you can't just say that they are the same because of their looks, or else Sonic needs to be downgraded into subsonic since we don't see he going faster than sound

I will be busy doing a test so I won't be able to comment for 6 hours
 
> The galaxu isn't from the level select, we already debunked that.

Show me a scan where a galaxy is in a dream.

> The name literaly says that's a dimension, are you even reading what you say?

Only thing I recall being called a dimension is Maginaryworld. Show me a scan of a Dream World being called a dimension, not the Maginaryworld though.

> If it's the same galaxy it would show the levels close to each other, you can't just say that they are the same because of their looks, or else Sonic needs to be downgraded into subsonic since we don't see he going faster than sound

False equivalency, Sonic has actual feats. They're definitely in the same area. While the cast is flying through the 4th dimension, Sonic says "Look the worlds we travelled through". This would mean 3 things.

1. The worlds are very close to one another.

2. The worlds are actually small enough for Sonic to notice the dreams just by looking at them.

3. They all exist in the same plain of existence but are only separate from each other while inside the Maginaryworld.
 
The scan wad already showed, the galaxy appears in the dream world, unless you want to say that they left the dream and then went back.

Dude Lummina says 4th dimension, the scan was already showed.

Tails says that the wolds are being projected through a screen, it's like whatching TV, the locations that you see through a screen aren't close.
 
Illumina later said this this shortly after she said all worlds are seperate. And since Maginary World is the only dream that's stated to be a Universe and literally every other dream put together is inside it, that goes to show that Maginary World is the only universe. The Dreams are not all equal in size, being parallel =/= equal in size and I explained what that word means.
 
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