Ikki Kurogane vs Shalltear Bloodfallen

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

.....Yeah and directly tricking the brain sure sounds like mental manip either way Ill double check but im not buying it what is ikkis ap

 

[Moritzva]

I mean it would be a form of social influencing. Also mind manip is only when the mind is directly affected. Tricking the mind is not mind manip otherwise normal humans would have mind manip from being able to lie, user misdirection and other normal mind tricking stuff.

Mind manip is for affecting the mind directly. Mind control, mind wipe ruff.

Resistance to social influencing omegalol

If we're not talking about any magical effects, at all, Shalltear is still fine as a vampire like her wouldn't take any sort of order or manipulation from a human, seeing someone like Ikki as absolutely below her.

What is Stella's 7-B Calculation?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

.....Yeah and directly tricking the brain sure sounds like mental manip either way Ill double check but im not buying it what is ikkis ap

It's not directly. It tricks it by slashing the body. Phantom form in its entirety is really weird has been retconned before now it's not clear but the point i got from it was "you slash, you deal no damage, the brain thinks the body got damage cus it was cut, mind shuts itself down".

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Why would shalltears mind shut down? She is already dead, has a self ressurection item and skills that restore he body to it's pre injured state. The fight for her doesn't end with death, Ive asked bambu what we would consider a non magical sword slash that somehow through skill tricks the brain into thinking its dead but it really sounds like mind manip to me....

So if the point is the brain thought it took fatal damage thus shuts down, how does that effect someon who ressurects or time reversals fatal damage?

edit what is ikki's ap?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Mind affecting abilities don't work here and it seems to be the case for both of them, also her stamina is infinite. Making your target think they've taken damage is mind manipulation. If she were somehow affected a simple check of her health bar (life or more lke undead force) will make her see that she didn't take damage unless the target even ignores solid evidence or the ability even messes with her physical state and physical stats. Also undead can't sleep.

Also, tricking the mind 4th tier charm works the same, tricking the target/s into thinking you and them are friends. The drawback being that you can't ask for sensitive information or order them around and the target will remember what you did once the effect ends.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah and in doing so she can hold him under the effect or tap him with her lance which is her win con. Ikki doesn't resist mental manip he only is able to fight if his brain shuts down. if his brain tells him to stop fighting because he's talking to a freind he'll stop. So while shalltear resist he doesn't...

So whats your thoughts here mrm

 

[Apeironaxim]

If his movement speed is the same, couldn't Shalltear just use Time Accelerator to increase her speed, putting herself in a position to literally just hit him once?

Considering she just needs to scratch him with her lance, i think this would be a solid tactic

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah this seems open and shut to me, phantom step is liable to not work, he may be able to oneshot (Still not sure where his ap lands in comparison to shalltears) But he needs to do it four times to bypass her time reversal and ressurection, she can mind manip and has her familiars/summons to help her get off a hit. she has the range advatage, can fly, her tracking javelins have the instant death effect as well (his feat of dealing with tracking projectiles involved him nullifying there conceptual tracking so not sure if he manages it against magical tracking...)

 

[InfiniteSped]

If he one-shots, she doesn't really get to use her time reversal skills.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Then she revives and uses Time Accelerator

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Whats Ikki's AP?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Didn't she use it when cut in half? Unless he totally destroys her body with his slash she should be able to use it. She can also teleport and after being onshot is liable to spam range.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah Thats a big factor here does he actually oneshot? If he does I still lean on shalltear but if he doesn't this probably becomes decisive...

 

[Apeironaxim]

Didn't she use it when cut in half? Unless he totally destroys her body with his slash she should be able to use it. She can also teleport and after being onshot is liable to spam range.

No, Reality Slash did not cut her in half

I legit don't know where that came from

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Ah anime only?

 

[InfiniteSped]

one more reason to ignore the anime

 

[Apeironaxim]

No, the anime just has a cool spacial distortion effect that makes it look like space was slashed

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

The spurt of blood an way her body slides to the side, it very much looks like shes been sliced in half, then she uses time reversal and we see her body slide back into place. Though I see what you mean, its just at a causual glance it looks like shes been sliced.

 

[Ionliosite]

Ikki's AP is below 3.688e+17 Joules.

 

[Apeironaxim]

You can literally see the space to her sides being distorted

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

So about 88.145315487571707536 megatons shalltear scales to fifty...So not enough to onshot

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah but at first glance it looks like she's sliding apart Its very easy to see why people assumed she was sliced in half.

 

[Apeironaxim]

HOWEVER

Her head does get nearly split in half and she's fine

so that's something

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

All right doesn't matter since ikki can't oneshot. Heck his ap is even lower as earl said he scales beneath stella's value. So shalltear can heal from his hits three times, ressurect once, has death manip, range, summons, mind manip ect. So she has a ton of advatages, this seems very clear cut.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Also if he's effecting the brain directly, Shalltear is undead, a corpse, her brain doesn't work

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

so wheres your vote?

 

[Apeironaxim]

I'll vote Shalltear by virtue of using Time Accelerator to position herself to just hit him once

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah she also has versatility advantage, range advantage, the ability to heal from three of his strikes via time reversal. Heck she could teleport away and heal off her summons since ikki can't oneshot her. She has him beat in hax, versatility and the one technique he has that could win in a single shot seems very liable to fail.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Wait, Phantom form doesn't work? Ok this makes this MUCH harder for ikki.

Wait 1 thing. Can ikki use amps or not? I forgot.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Limited to reaction amp and yeah theres way to many factors that seem liable to neg phantom form. He can amp reaction speed, his ap isn't big enough to oneshot either.

 

[Apeironaxim]

However, just because he has better reaction speed doesn't help his actual speed, which Shalltear will have the advantage with her Time Accelerator

So at best, he can see her getting ready to hit him, but can't do anything about it

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

True but even if that somehow failed, shalltear has tracking lance, ability to drain her familars to heal, charm species magic, a large range advatage, time reversal and ressurection.

edit it won't fail just saying she has alot of other advatages as well.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

This is too much then. With amps or trackless step is a bit different, but ikki can't deal with all that stuff especially the mind hax spell without either trackless step which as we said doesn't work iirc or amps.

 

[Maruishimaryishi]

Ainz's second wife FRA

 

[FDrybob]

Shalltear FRA. She also has the option of using Hold Species, which will fix Ikki in place.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I forgot here. Were the amps resitricted? If yes i still say this is a stomp.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Restricted to reaction amps.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah stomp.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Does Ikki actually have no wincon?

If so we should just close this

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Does Ikki actually have no wincon?
If so we should just close this

Not that he doesn't but we restricted his amps cus he stomped, now it's just him with his base speed having to deal with like 4 forms of mind hax, other enemies, danmaku and idk what else while being severely outranged. Since he lost his ability to close the gap (was restricted).