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Iihiko Big Revisions

Hl3 or bust said:
Except it is
The powers suddenly not working against him is power null
Click to expand...
Something aren't working on him isn't nullification, its negation, and no, they aren't the same thing. Mogura is the most obvious example counter example to this. Just because they share a page does not make them the same power
 
Hl3 or bust said:
Negation is also power null

Try again
Click to expand...
No it ******* isn't. Its the other way around. Power Null is a type of negation, and they are not the same. If I erase an incoming attack, I have not nullfied any powers, but I have still negated the attack
 
What is your argument for them not being the same thing beyond blatant name fallacy? And how does it beat:

The fact that Power Nullification and negation are stated to be the same thing on the page

The fact that Negation redirects to power null

And the fact that the pages were merged at one point, showing that them being different pages is redundant?
 
Hl3 or bust said:
What is your argument for them not being the same thing beyond blatant name fallacy? And how does it beat:
The fact that Power Nullification and negation are stated to be the same thing on the page

The fact that Negation redirects to power null

And the fact that the pages were merged at one point, showing that them being different pages is redundant?
Click to expand...
Holy shit for the last time redundancy doesnt matter when it comes to powers, sorry for the rudeness but god its been disproven so many times already
 
How is it a name fallacy exactly? I have not appealed to the name at all.

Idk who changed it since its wrong, because the classic definition of negation has powers that still sit outside of the bounds of what is considered power null

It redirecting has nothing to do with my argument, in fact, the reason it was deleted if i recal was over lap

redundancy does not make them the same. I already provided a counter example of something that isn't power null but is negation.
 
Holy shit for the last time redundancy doesnt matter when it comes to powers, sorry for the rudeness but god its been disproven so many times already

"Reality Warping is every power bruh"

Yeah, doesn't change the fact that specificity helps a lot and that power null and negation are literally the exact same thing
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
How is it a name fallacy exactly? I have not appealed to the name at all.

Idk who changed it since its wrong, because the classic definition of negation has powers that still sit outside of the bounds of what is considered power null

It redirecting has nothing to do with my argument, in fact, the reason it was deleted if i recal was over lap

redundancy does not make them the same. I already provided a counter example of something that isn't power null but is negation.
Click to expand...
Aside from your entire argument against power null so far, which you havent explained or elaborated upon at all

Elaborate

Aside from it showing that power null and negation are one and the same

Mind reposting it?
 
Except I have for this entire thread. if your means of denying an attack have nothing to do with the powers at all, then it isn't power null, its just negation.

I'd need a back up of the original negation page to show you. But basically, from my understanding, if you can deny an enemy attack without nullifying their power, then that is negation but not power nullification

There are plenty of powers that redirect to another just because they are the most similar to what they have. Most of the Style users for Medaka Box have their Word Manipulation redirected to Text Manipulation when they are not the same, only kind of similar. I can think of many powers that redirect to mind manipulation when they are actually either a more specific or slightly different version of the power. Frued from SSF has the power to control sexual desire, yet it is just listed as general mind manip. Powers linking to a slightly different ones doesn't make the powers the same.

I just posted it like 10 minutes ago in a reply to you, but my counter example revolved around Mogura's Nothing specifically. Another example would be Sasuke's ability to disrupt naruto's hand sign thus negating his clown jutsu, which is not power null, but is still negation.
 
Except that the exact same can be said of any form of power null

see above

from what i understand, that "Word Manipulation" is closer to targetted reality warping in what it actually does, it's just reliant on how languages work

I'm fairly certain that Mogura's Nothing is closer to causality manip than anything else, but that's just me. Regardless, preventing someone from using an ability is also power null
 
@Elizhaa I know they got fused, I was there, but they still have some things about them that are not quite the same. Whoever fused them, missed these key elements. Them sharing a page, does not make them the same thing, as I have said in the past like 18 comments.

If you all insist that they are the same, then the power nullification probably needs a new type for nullifying just attacks and not powers, or just not being effected by attacks, which does not fall under the current definition of power nullfication. No where on that page does it mention anything about characters simply not being effected, nor does it mention nullifying attacks but not powers. The other issue is that just because you resist one kind of power nullification does not mean you resist the other kinds
 
Hl3 or bust said:
Except that the exact same can be said of any form of power null
see above

from what i understand, that "Word Manipulation" is closer to targetted reality warping in what it actually does, it's just reliant on how languages work

I'm fairly certain that Mogura's Nothing is closer to causality manip than anything else, but that's just me. In all seriousness, preventing someone from using an ability is also power null
Click to expand...
No, it really isn't. How does "any form of power null" do what I said, which is "denying an attack have nothing to do with the powers at all"?

again, how does any form of power nullification do what I said, which is "deny an enemy attack without nullifying their power"

Kind of, they modify the words to modify reality, but this only backs up my point further on different powers redirecting to other ones.

Its existence erasure applied as causality manip, but its still negation without being power null. It depends on how they are preventing someone from using them
 
"denying an attack" is fancy wording for "the attack does nothing even if it hits." That sounds a lot closer to power null than the former

The style stuff is just it linking to a power that doesn't actually do anything and is outright the wrong ability to be entirely honest with you

If it's causality manipulation to keep someone from attacking, how can it also be negation if there's nothing to negate in the first place?
 
No, not at all. They have used their power just fine, I have simply rendered this specific usage of it ineffect in this one instanse, but the power is not nullified. and again, they are denying the attack without Nullifying the power.

Well, text manipulation is often used the same way as that, and if Medaka Box were a novel, they would probably be outright modifying the words ont he page, but they ain't.

She isn't keeping someone from attacking, she just erased their attempt, thus negating it. Negation is rare as the power in and of itself, its often a description of something that is done by other means.
 
except that "the attack" doesn't mean "the ability used," so what is your point here?

fair enough, although when described that way it seems closer to plot manipulation

i mean if the attempt gets erased they can't really attack can they? That's low-hanging fruit, but you get the point. So.........negation is a specific use of a separate power rather than a separate power?
 
"denying an attack" is way too broad faling under numerous abilities like Invulnerability, etc. perhaps could a durablity feat on this wiki and @Hl3 or bust make a great point why it can be just fancy wording.

Of course, just being able to resistance Power Nullification doen't mean they can resist all Power Nullification; the Resistance only scaled to Resitance Feats. This is the current standard for all Resistance already and if not follows it would be No Limits Fallacy (NLF). So, there is no need for a change here.
 
While I'm not particularly knowledgeable on Medaka Box, I thought I'd give my opinion there. The ability does sound like Power Null, but not the conventional kind. It doesn't seem to null the opponent or even the attack itself, rather it nulls the attack's effect on Iihiko. The way I see it is, for an attack to bypass this resistance, the attack itself would have to resist power null, not the user of the attack.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
except that "the attack" doesn't mean "the ability used," so what is your point here?
fair enough, although when described that way it seems closer to plot manipulation

i mean if the attempt gets erased they can't really attack can they? That's low-hanging fruit, but you get the point. So.........negation is a specific use of a separate power rather than a separate power?
Click to expand...
Well, the attack comes from the ability used, or it is just an attack apart from any specific ability. My point is that it is not power nullification, yet still negation.

they do border on that sometimes

They attack, and then they didn't. That's how she negates it without negating the powers. My point is, negation's most common means is through power null, but it can also often be used through other means. The only instance of just pure negation with no means that I have come across would probably be Kamome Tsurubami
 
Elizhaa said:
"denying an attack" is way too broad faling under numerous abilities like Invulnerability, etc. perhaps could a durablity feat on this wiki and @Hl3 or bust make a great point why it can be just fancy wording.
Of course, just being able to resistance Power Nullification doen't mean they can resist all Power Nullification; the Resistance only scaled to Resitance Feats. This is the current standard for all Resistance already and if not follows it would be No Limits Fallacy (NLF). So, there is no need for a change here.
Click to expand...
I mean, is that not what iihiko's negation borders on? Although, it wasn't what I meant. I was more refering to taking an action to negate it, rather than a passive state, although Iihiko is obviously a passive state which is more the rule than exception. Its not a durability feat, because if it was, then Munakata would have killed him right then and there. Munakata had the strength to drive multiple swords into him, yet he didn't recognize it as an attack so he didn't bleed or take real damage

I am not talking about potency, I am talking about kind of power nullification. The reason I care about this, and why it isn't just semantics is because of how resistance is applied, and the kind of negation I describe falls outside the bounds of most power null
 
Firephoenixearl said:
More and more people seem to agree with negation and my proposed abilities.
Tri just give up already
Click to expand...
Even though you didn't propose anything in this thread just the OP and some other people mainly.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Ok so my current oppinion:
Power Nullification (Any power used on him even if it works, will break and will never be usable again, extends to any type of physical attack as well).

Negation Type (Cannot be reached by skills or attacks he does not recognize, furthermore he can also dismiss any buff or defensive based skill as long as he does not recognize the buff).

Adaptation and/or Reactive Evolution (Even if he does recognize an ability or if the ability forces recognition like styles, he cannot be hurt or affected by the same ability twice).

Resistance Negation (Could nullify even the strongest of minuses all of which resists powerful power nullification abilities, has also been shown to resist other types of resistance).
Click to expand...
I didn't propose anything? Wut?
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
Oh didn't read that part. My bad still though there seems to be a disagreement given how all of them seems to tied to Power Null though.
Click to expand...
Power null that can null resistances is called resistance negation.

Actual power null would be him breaking the skills, making them unusable.

Negation would be him negating the effects of a skill on himself.

They are the same power (his recognition), but the aplications are a bit different.
 
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