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Ichigo kurosaki vs Natsu Dragneel

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@Lit

Except the scans show that there genuinely is a difference between their own speed and Shunpo, they can blatantly choose whether to use it or not.

Yes Shunpo is a technique, one that increases their speed, it's not their natural movement speed and that's why the fights where Ichigo doesn't know it are perfect examples, when he fought Renji, he didn't know Shunpo at all and yet his maximum speed manages to blitz him. Then there's Ichigo blocking Byakuya's attack again he knows what Shunpo is, but can't use it himself yet is still able to block his strike no problem.

Both of those examples were thanks to his natural movement speed, not Shunpo which further enhances it to the point he could blitz Byakuya later on by choice.
 
This is from the Bleach wiki:

Shunpo (þ×¼µ¡®, Flash Steps) is a movement technique which allows the user to move faster than the eye can follow.[3] The focal point which determines the basis of this technique is speed. As speed is the main factor of the technique, the method is best characterized by how fast one can get from point A to point B in the least amount of steps. Training and skill are what determines how fast a user of Shunpo can move; users of little skill in the technique or those who have not used it for an extended period of time would obviously be out of practice, causing them to be considerably slower, which requires the use of more steps to move the same distance and become winded in a shorter amount of time.[4]

So yeah, it doesn't appear to be a speed amp. It's very akin to running with stride.
 
Litentric Teon said:
@Kadmus

SBA, presumably, spiritual energy/reiatsu would be equalized to magic. Allowing Natsu the potential to eat it.
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter even with the equalization Natsu has never been seen eating pure magical energy. Etherion was a fluke because fire element magic was in it. He absorbed lightning yes but this isn't lightning. It's pure energy meaning he cannot eat/absorb it or whatever.
 
@Kadmus

The amount of fire elemental magic contained within the weapon was noted to be rather miniscule. It was still closer to magical energy than fire.

The point on lightning still stands. The lightning, while magical in nature, is still just energy.
 
Shunpo isn't a speed amp, it's a technique that emphasizes on one's speed to get to a point in as few steps as possible. It's no different than DBZ characters moving faster that the eye can follow to get from point A to point B. In this case, its just has a technique slapped on to explain the high-speed movement.
 
Litentric Teon said:
@Kadmus

The amount of fire elemental magic contained within the weapon was noted to be rather miniscule. It was still closer to magical energy than fire.

The point on lightning still stands. The lightning, while magical in nature, is still just energy.
Click to expand...
Miniscule it might be but it's still the one reason why he was able to even swallow the energy. Lightning is a form of energy yes, but it's still an element. Pure magical energy is not something that can absorbed by dragon slaying magic.

The consequences of Etherion is already enough evidence. What if fire element magic wasn't in Etherion? Natsu would literally just be knocking himself out.
 
@Kadmus

I'll concede there. That's a good point.

@Hst

Where does he say it's an enhancement to Ichigo's normal speed? He just says it's faster to use shunpo than to presumably run or fly. That's not different from saying it's faster to run to the store down the street than to run, since whomever is going has a curfew or something.

I'm looking for a scan that really describes what it is. Not implications that aren't particularly convincing. If he learned it, I'm sure there was an explanation on what it was. We just have to find it.
 
Can you show evidence of the contradictions? And Tenjiro saying to use shunpo doesn't mean he treats it as an enhancement. Like literally any high-speed FTE movement in bleach by a shinigami is called shunpo. It just repeatedly ingrains that it is just a technique rather than an amp.

The fact that it can be trained and mastered so that you can get to the desired destination faster shows that it isn't a speed amp.
 
@Kadmus

It being a technique negates it being a Speed Amp how exactly? And what? Look at any fight before Shunpo is properly introduced by Yoruichi and Byakuya.

The fact that you can improve in it shows it's not a speed amp how? It and the other factions speed increasing ablilites all have users of varying degrees.

@Lit

There is no scan of him learning Shunpo, there's just Ichigo fighting Byakuya and him commenting that he learned it.

And again that I keep repeating, the fights where he doesn't know Shunpo show that there's a distinct difference between his own movement speed and using Shunpo.
 
A lot of speed tiering in bleach already base it off shunpo. Hell, Yoruichi speed scaled to someone because she is a "shunpo master", so their current speeds already include shunpo.
 
@Hst

Learning shunpo is already similar to learning how to run with stride. I've provided evidence from the wiki, as the manga neglects explanation on such according to you. And I've already gave rather thorough reasoning on why it's not a speed amp in accordance to how it's been shown using your examples. Of course someone would get much faster if they practiced proper running technique. The same can be said of shunpo. Shunpo becomes his movement speed, he uses it to get from place to place often and quickly, the same as a person running.

But, regardless, what Captain Torch has said is correct, rendering any further debate mute.
 
@Torch

Several verses do this, but does detract from their abilities from being Speed Enhancements? Shunshin,Soru,Figure 8 Peel Out and several others are all examples.

@Lit

Except there have been more instances that contradicts this. Ichigo fighting Renji, countering Byakuya and forcfully removing Aizen from Karakura. And might I remind you, Soul Reapers do not have true flight, they stand on the air. Ichigo wasn't using Shunpo when he relocated Aizen, that was his own speed.

There's also Rangiku noticing the difference between Nakeem not using Sonído and Ulquiorra noticing that Ichigo was using Sonído instead of Shunpo while possessed.
 
@Hst

Except it doesn't. You're neglecting the comparison between walking and running. Of course someone will seem faster when they are running. And you also haven't addressed that them moving with shunpo, sonido, etc, is them moving with their max speed.

Locating someone isn't really a speed feat. It's more of a feat of the senses.

Also, Vasto Lorde using sonido was notable not because of the large increase in all of his stats, speed being one of them, but because it's a hollow technique that soul reapers should not be able to use, rendering such a point rather moot.

His own speed is shunpo. Same as it is for everyone else. Kenpachi is the slowest because he hasn't bothered to learn the technique that would increase his maximum speed, same as someone not learning the proper running form.

Lastly, if what Torch said is correct, that the speeds listed on their profiles are their speeds using shunpo, then speed equalized means that Ichigo's shunpo speed is equalized to Natsu's speed. So this entire debate would be rendered mute merely based upon that.
 
What is your definition of a speed amp/enchancement?

Ichigo Bankai form is a speed amp Luffy's gear second, snakeman and boundman(to an extent) are all speed amps

Shunpo is a technique that allows one to reach a destination in the least amount of steps and enables FTE movement. Sonido is the exact same except Arrancars can do it instinctively.

Soru is the exact same, the principle behind it is kicking the ground "at least" 10 times in the blink of an eye. Nero, for example, didn't master Soru, so his version looks more like a swift run instead of the vanishing speed.

Shunsin, however, is a speed amp. The user vitalizes their body with chakra to move at extreme speeds.

There's a difference between using technique related to footwork to enable FTE movement and an enhancement that increases one's speed.
 
A speed enhancement is something that boosts your overall speed past its normal points

Shunpo, Hirenkyaku, Sonído, and Bringer Light all act similar to one another with small differences (Hirenkyaku can make platforms, Bringer Light is more visible) Bringer Light is even flat out called a speed amplification by Chad.

Like I said earlier, Rangiku notices a clear difference between Nakeem's normal speed and him using Sonído. And Shunpo isn't just allowing them to move FTE, since Ichigo was capable of doing that beforehand and was able to do it while relocating Aizen away from Rangiku and the others.
 
@Hst

Thank you for the scan. Though Chad makes reference to an amplified jump, and says nothing about his speed, only that he's using fullbring to accelerate his foot for the jump. Which I'm assuming he does for the rest of the fight?

But also, you didn't address Torch's point. If Bleach speeds are already scaled to shunpo, then this whole debate can just be laid to rest here.
 
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