I think we should loosen our crossover rules a little bit

[The_Smashor]

@The_Smashor to be clear, which do you prefer between your suggestion and my edit to it?

Your take is pretty much what I had in mind.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It seems strange to apply the first part of those rules to crossovers in particular though, but maybe I have misunderstood something.

The references to non-crossover verses and characters seem very out of place though.

 

[Armorchompy]

They're references to the most famous series in genres that are very prone to having crossovers.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Promestein @Eficiente @The_Impress

Your input would still be appreciated regarding the following suggestions.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/i-think-we-should-loosen-our-crossover-rules-a-little-bit.127985/post-4542163

 

[Antvasima]

They're references to the most famous series in genres that are very prone to having crossovers.

Well, they still seem very out of place to me. I would appreciate if our members here could come up with other examples instead.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, they still seem very out of place to me. I would appreciate if our members here could come up with other examples instead.

Simply put I think referencing iconic characters from the most famous fighting game is better than mentioning a relatively obscure crossover, especially since something like Mortal Kombat's "Xenomorph can harm Shao Kahn" isn't inherently illogical if you don't consider the greater picture that shows characters estabilished as weaker than SK being equal to him in gameplay, which in my opinion makes the example muddier.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, in that case, wouldn't it be better to use more generic explanations, without mentioning specific characters?

Also, please explain why your added rules apply to crossovers specifically.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, they explain that crossover scaling is something that can only be done in specific cases, especially without story evidence, that part is the "hard" rule. The rest that explains how gameplay feats can be used is mostly there to show that crossover profiles can be made even without scaling, which was agreed to be the case here, and was previously not allowed, and give some examples of common feats that users might find helpful for those profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am very overworked, so I am not certain if I have properly digested what you are trying to say though.

I also do not really understand why the game rules should not apply to all games instead of just crossover characters.

In addition, I am not sure whether or not it is a good idea to allow crossover characters that are identical to the originals by getting rid of Smashor's first rule.

 

[Armorchompy]

I also do not really understand why the game rules should not apply to all games instead of just crossover characters.

They do apply to all games, but I think specifying that in the page is a good idea to avoid crossover characters being scaled to god tiers.

In addition, I am not sure whether or not it is a good idea to allow crossover characters that are identical to the originals by getting rid of Smashor's first rule.

The original story was required for tiering purposes, which we have determined isn't the case. Generally we still discourage carbon copies, though.

 

[Antvasima]

They do apply to all games, but I think specifying that in the page is a good idea to avoid crossover characters being scaled to god tiers.

Are they mentioned in our game mechanics page, or somewhere more appropriate as well then?

The original story was required for tiering purposes, which we have determined isn't the case. Generally we still discourage carbon copies, though.

I think that we mention it in our Canon page as well, but am not certain. It is an important rule to keep around somewhere in any case.

However, my main concern with the Crossovers page is that we still shouldn't scale statistics between different continuities.

 

[Armorchompy]

However, my main concern with the Crossovers page is that we still shouldn't scale statistics between different continuities.

I believe that is made clear elsewhere in the page.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is good then.

 

[Armorchompy]

bump. As I understand it the agreement here is almost universal.

 

[Antvasima]

I am still uneasy with your version of the rules, as they do not seem to specifically apply to crossovers in particular and use very ill-fitting examples. Smashor's original set of rules also seem much more straightforward and easy to understand.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/i-think-we-should-loosen-our-crossover-rules-a-little-bit.127985/post-4550149

You also did not respond to all of my last points:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/i-think-we-should-loosen-our-crossover-rules-a-little-bit.127985/post-4550869

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Promestein @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Damage3245

What do you think about this?

 

[Armorchompy]

Are they mentioned in our game mechanics page, or somewhere more appropriate as well then?

In a general sense yes but I think reiterating here is a good idea.

I think that we mention it in our Canon page as well, but am not certain. It is an important rule to keep around somewhere in any case.

This entire thread is about loosening those standards, which has generally been agreed upon.

However, my main concern with the Crossovers page is that we still shouldn't scale statistics between different continuities.

This has been addressed I believe

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, I don't think anyone else thinks that Smashor's standards are better, Smashor included. I think you are just misunderstanding what mine are revising, I'm only clarifying that story presence isn't necessary for a crossover profile to be made.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, at the very least, as I think Medeus also mentioned earlier, the examples are too ill-fitting to keep. They preferably need to be removed or replaced.

 

[Armorchompy]

I can remove them, I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, let's wait and see what the other staff members that I called here think.

There is also something else about your intended revision that I am uneasy with, but I cannot quite put my finger on it. I hope that they might be able to properly define it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I must admit minimal experience with crossovers, but I do think Armor's standards at least cover some good points. I'm fine with them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't have a lot of experience with crossovers myself. I rarely get involved in these discussions. Keeping that in mind, I think Armor makes good points.

One question though, just to get some clarity. How will it effect non-game crossovers like Dragon Ball Z X One Piece X Toriko where all these different characters are shown to have similar levels of power?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think our crossovers page handles that specific example already to explain cross-verse scaling. I'm not familiar with the example but unless the evidence is strong that they're from their own original series with their feats remaining is intact, they would have to be scaled to feats within the crossover itself.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if we could all help out with coming up with better crossover-related examples to use in Armorchompy's new rule texts in any case. Otherwise it may be best to remove them.

 

[Armorchompy]

Maybe Mortal Kombat could be used? I'm not familiar with it but it does have a lot of crossovers going on. Fire Emblem is actually fine to keep since it features in-series crossovers, most notably with Fire Emblem Heroes, which aren't used for scaling, but I'm not sure if I know our handling of that well enough to type that out.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the suggestions.

Does anybody else here have some good ideas regarding this problem?

 

[Armorchompy]

1. Gameplay should not be used to obtain, through powerscaling, the statistics of crossover characters in videogames that typically allow all characters to fight each other regardless of lore, such as Street Fighter, where joke characters like Dan Hibiki can have a fair match against much more powerful fighters like Akuma, or Fire Emblem where all playable characters can reach similar stats and fight the same foes despite the game's story bringing up attention to the superior power of protagonists such as Byleth Eisner compared to the average unit.

@JustSomeWeirdo @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou could I ask for your help for coming up with a more crossover-themed version of this, preferably using fighting games and fire emblem as examples?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

"use Fire Emblem and fighting games as an example"

In Fire Emblem: Fates, the Smash Bros. versions of Marth, Ike, Lucina, and Robin, are able to make appearances as recruitable characters via amiibo functionality. However, this does not warrant cross-scaling between the two

Hopefully we can make a Smash Roy page after this, though, it's also notable as his first appearance as Melee predates The Binding Blade

 

[Armorchompy]

not both in one, I was thinking more Fire Emblem Heroes or something like that, though I guess this works too.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

My bad, I did think it would be funny to use the Fates-Smash example, so I went with that, here's a few more:

Characters from Cipher appearing in Echoes doesn't mean we necessarily scale their respective continents to 7-C (not really notable, but this was brought up exactly once)

FEH, despite being considered canon, is in a weird area with its scaling and shouldn't really be used outside of making FEH profiles

On a similar note, we don't scale Dragalia Lost characters to FEH characters, regardless of FEH being canon to DL

Also the classic case of not scaling Smash Bros. to Kid Icarus characters despite being canon in their universe

 

[Armorchompy]

"[...] or Fire Emblem Heroes where all playable characters have similar stats and can fight each other or the same foes despite their original games' stories usually establishing gaps in power between protagonists such as Byleth Eisner compared to average units from the same game, and characters from different sub-series showing vastly different showings of power"

Something like that work?

 

[Antvasima]

That is probably fine, although I am not familiar with the reference.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

That is fine, it's basically our current standards for the verse 1-1

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That looks good.

 

[Armorchompy]

[...] such as Mortal Kombat, where any character including crossover ones like Leatherface can have fair matches against both relatively weak members of the cast such as Baraka and much more powerful fighters like Shao Kahn, or Fire Emblem Heroes where all playable characters have similar stats and can fight each other or the same foes despite their original games' stories usually establishing gaps in power between protagonists such as Byleth Eisner compared to average units from the same game, and characters from different sub-series showing vastly different levels of power"

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that seems fine to apply. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Starter_Pack]

I'm good with it.

Can also appreciate the Dragalia Lost comparison from JSW since I am practically one of the only supporters for the verse.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply.

Would you be willing to properly modify our Crossovers page then @Armorchompy ?

 

[Armorchompy]

The "Examples" section should be touched up, or even removed altogether, given that we would allow all the characters listed in the "not allowed" category. And I assume these rules would replace it.

Yeah, I'll do this basically