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I think we should loosen our crossover rules a little bit

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Can somebody remind me what Promestein and DontTalk think please?
 
Promestein said:
It's completely different from different crossover standards. Different characters and forms of a character within one setting, like Saber, and substantially differing versions of characters, are very much different from virtually identical characters in one-off crossover plots with nothing special.
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DontTalkDT said:
I would demand more than mere presence, but actually noteworthy involvement. We don't need a version for a character that appeared for 5 seconds in a crossover where he briefly fought someone.


Should IMO be required. If your character is exactly the same except that it has some stat scaling slapped unto it, it is IMO not a notable non-canon version. At that point it's just stat hunting.


Yeah, personally, I was always of the opinion crossover versions should stand on their own, relying on what was shown/stated in the crossover (especially with how we often list abilities the authors probably forgot about characters having...)
Although, I was in the minority with that opinion in the past. At least the stat part is already in our rules, though.
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DontTalkDT said:
Depends on whether than gameplay is used for feats or not, I guess. If most of the feats come from gameplay, yes. If it's just scaling and using stuff they get from the canon counterpart or something, then no.
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@Starter_Pack @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about this?
 
Thank you for the reply.

Would somebody in our staff be willing to structure the exact changes that have been accepted and should be applied here please?
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for the reply.

Would somebody in our staff be willing to structure the exact changes that have been accepted and should be applied here please?
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Other members who know what they are doing are also welcome to help out with this.
 
If you write a list of all the members who helped out here earlier, I can send a notification to them.
 
The_Smashor said:
I think the following requirements should be in place to allow a character from a crossover game to have a profile:
  1. The crossover must have some kind of noteworthy original story.
  2. The character must somehow be present in said story, and have feats/scaling outside of exclusively battling against other characters in gameplay (Typically this requires them fighting one of the original characters in the game,). This can include trailers if these trailers are somehow tied into the story.
  3. While not required, it's massively preferable if a character has something that separates them from their canon counterpart beyond stats. Typically, this is some kind of universal mechanic that anyone in the game has access to (Spirits in SSBU or the Infinity Stones in MvC:I as an example), though other more story-oriented examples exist. Of course, if the stat gap compared to their canon counterpart is wide enough, it could be worth making the profile anyways.
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There is alot of fluff in the OP, so just gonna focus on these rules, which are fine in my opinion.

Like at the end of the day we're lacking too much faith into people, that this is some GRAND STRATEGY TO GET THEIR FAVORITE CHARACTERS AT DIFFERENT STATS, it's for me personally, representation of a character's version I like, indexed onto the wiki. Like for perspective, I used to play the **** out of MvC3, anyone who has interacted with me KNOWS I don't care about statistics wank/downplay, I just recognised characteristics which I just feel are inherently separate from 616 Marvel, which while you may not recognise as distinct, are to me, and my only reason to insist on their file is, I feel these versions of characters are notable enough, in personal and public eye, hell even Vs. Debating, that deserve to be on the wiki.

Bad files are bad files, these aren't misrepresentations, hell for most people it can be the first or only representation of these characters. I wouldn't be straying from this opinion anytime soon I feel, since most points against them are arbitrary distinctions to me.

I'll not bother "defending my points" or honestly expect any staff member to "textwall debunk" either, since I hope they recognise it's a completely subjective argument at its core that is driving this thread. These are just my thoughts on the matter.
 
Well, I also think that those suggested rules seem reasonable.

Which staff members have accepted what so far?
 
Okay. Can somebody write a tally of what everyone here think please?
 
@The_Smashor

Can you or somebody else here help out with the tasks that I asked for help with in my last preceding post here please? Or at least write a list of all the staff members that helped out in this thread previously, so I can send a notification to them afterwards.
 
Thank you for helping out.
 
This is just what I'm inferring from people's comments, I can't read minds, and I'm only doing Staff since their votes matter the most and literally every non-staff user who has an opinion here seems to agree with it from what I can tell.

Agree: Starter_Pack, Armorchompy, Antvasima, The_Impress, DarkDragonMedeus, JustSomeWeirdo

Iffy/Arguing with my SSB!Sephiroth and MvC!Mega Man X examples in particular: Eficiente

Neutral: Mr._Bambu

Disagree: SomebodyData (I think?)
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I also think that those suggested rules seem reasonable.

Which staff members have accepted what so far?
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The_Smashor said:
This is just what I'm inferring from people's comments, I can't read minds, and I'm only doing Staff since their votes matter the most and literally every non-staff user who has an opinion here seems to agree with it from what I can tell.

Agree: Starter_Pack, Armorchompy, Antvasima, The_Impress, DarkDragonMedeus, JustSomeWeirdo

Iffy/Arguing with my SSB!Sephiroth and MvC!Mega Man X examples in particular: Eficiente

Neutral: Mr._Bambu

Disagree: SomebodyData (I think?)
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@Starter_Pack @Armorchompy @The_Impress @DarkDragonMedeus @JustSomeWeirdo @Eficiente @Mr._Bambu @SomebodyData

Can you specify or verify what you have or have not agreed with here please? Do we currently have a sufficient consensus to largely apply this revision? Specifically the three following points:
The_Smashor said:
I think the following requirements should be in place to allow a character from a crossover game to have a profile:
  1. The crossover must have some kind of noteworthy original story.
  2. The character must somehow be present in said story, and have feats/scaling outside of exclusively battling against other characters in gameplay (Typically this requires them fighting one of the original characters in the game,). This can include trailers if these trailers are somehow tied into the story.
  3. While not required, it's massively preferable if a character has something that separates them from their canon counterpart beyond stats. Typically, this is some kind of universal mechanic that anyone in the game has access to (Spirits in SSBU or the Infinity Stones in MvC:I as an example), though other more story-oriented examples exist. Of course, if the stat gap compared to their canon counterpart is wide enough, it could be worth making the profile anyways.
Click to expand...
 
I disagree that story presence is required for a character to be profiled, if feats (not scaling) can be discerned from gameplay (Street Fighter's minigames where you destroy cars or barrels come to mind) then story presence is not required to adequately profile a character. There's also, in some cases, reasonable assumptions that can be made, such as characters being at least comparable to fodder mooks who they mow down by the dozens.

What should be forbidden is scaling through gameplay in games that run on "everyone fights everyone" logic such as fighting games, but even that shouldn't be universal, if a bonus boss is clearly portrayed as a threat in gameplay (Think Rathalos, originally from Monster Hunter, in Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker, who has little story presence but is an extremely challenging and drawn-out fight, even by the game's standards) and there are no reasons to assume otherwise, such as the same game allowing for lore-unfriendly matchups (Again, fighting games spring to mind, as do Strategy RPGs where the protagonists, who are god-tiers in lore, are on the same level as any random supporting character in gameplay), I think scaling is fine.
 
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So how would you modify the three rules then Armorchompy? Can you write a draft text please?
 
I can give it a shot.
  1. Gameplay should not be used to obtain, through powerscaling, the statistics of crossover characters in videogames that typically allow all characters to fight each other regardless of lore, such as Street Fighter, where joke characters like Dan Hibiki can have a fair match against much more powerful fighters like Akuma, or Fire Emblem where all playable characters can reach similar stats and fight the same foes despite the game's story bringing up attention to the superior power of protagonists such as Byleth Eisner compared to the average unit.
    1. It is fine to powerscale a crossover character's statistics through their presence in a game's story mode, equivalent, or other canonical material. Additionally, it is typically acceptable to assume that a character is at least comparable to common enemies in a game if gameplay requires or heavily encourages defeating those enemies, though this can vary depending on the specific case.
    2. If a character's statistics cannot be gleaned through powerscaling, in-game feats can be used to determine a safe low end for them. Common examples of such feats are being able to launch enemies with attacks or destroying various objects.
  2. While not required, it's massively preferable if a character has something that separates them from their canon counterpart beyond stats. Typically, this is some kind of universal mechanic that anyone in the game has access to (Spirits in Super Smash Bros Ultimate or the Infinity Stones in Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite are an example), though other more story-oriented examples exist. Of course, if the stat gap compared to their canon counterpart is wide enough, it could be worth making the profile anyways.
(Note that my knowledge of Street Fighter lore is very lacking, my Three Houses knowledge is only a little better and I literally know nothing about Samurai Shodown, I just listed the first fitting examples that came to mind)
 
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Armorchompy said:
Fire Emblem where all playable characters can reach similar stats and fight the same foes despite the game's story bringing up attention to the superior power of protagonists such as Byleth Eisner compared to the average unit.
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Off topic, but Felix is actually a Hero's Relic wielder. And I have heard JSW had plans to upgrade them. I probably would have used a crestless character as an example of an average unit.

But I otherwise agree with the listed points.
 
So what do the rest of our staff here think? Which of the following sets of rules are preferable to use, or should we use some sort of modified combination of the two?
The_Smashor said:
I think the following requirements should be in place to allow a character from a crossover game to have a profile:
  1. The crossover must have some kind of noteworthy original story.
  2. The character must somehow be present in said story, and have feats/scaling outside of exclusively battling against other characters in gameplay (Typically this requires them fighting one of the original characters in the game,). This can include trailers if these trailers are somehow tied into the story.
  3. While not required, it's massively preferable if a character has something that separates them from their canon counterpart beyond stats. Typically, this is some kind of universal mechanic that anyone in the game has access to (Spirits in SSBU or the Infinity Stones in MvC:I as an example), though other more story-oriented examples exist. Of course, if the stat gap compared to their canon counterpart is wide enough, it could be worth making the profile anyways.
Click to expand...
Armorchompy said:
  1. Gameplay should not be used to obtain, through powerscaling, the statistics of crossover characters in videogames that typically allow all characters to fight each other regardless of lore, such as Street Fighter, where joke characters like Dan Hibiki can have a fair match against much more powerful fighters like Akuma, or Fire Emblem where all playable characters can reach similar stats and fight the same foes despite the game's story bringing up attention to the superior power of protagonists such as Byleth Eisner compared to the average unit.
    1. It is fine to powerscale a crossover character's statistics through their presence in a game's story mode, equivalent, or other canonical material. Additionally, it is typically acceptable to assume that a character is at least comparable to common enemies in a game if gameplay requires or heavily encourages defeating those enemies, though this can vary depending on the specific case.
    2. If a character's statistics cannot be gleaned through powerscaling, in-game feats can be used to determine a safe low end for them. Common examples of such feats are being able to launch enemies with attacks or destroying various objects.
  2. While not required, it's massively preferable if a character has something that separates them from their canon counterpart beyond stats. Typically, this is some kind of universal mechanic that anyone in the game has access to (Spirits in Super Smash Bros Ultimate or the Infinity Stones in Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite are an example), though other more story-oriented examples exist. Of course, if the stat gap compared to their canon counterpart is wide enough, it could be worth making the profile anyways.
Click to expand...
Also, I am uncertain precisely in what manner our current Crossovers page should be modified in sum total beyond just adding the rules in question. Can somebody explain please?
 
The "Examples" section should be touched up, or even removed altogether, given that we would allow all the characters listed in the "not allowed" category. And I assume these rules would replace it.
 
Yeah, examples have always been getting changed around; and while some people think it makes them easier to understand. When rules get changed or updated, they end up becoming barriers. I wouldn't mind nuking examples at least for now.
 
I am fine with Armorchompy's suggestions.
Editing the examples to match the future rules seem fine; removing them seems fine, also.
 
Well, the key issue here seems to be the switching of The Smashor's first two suggested rules, which directly relate to crossovers specifically, and I personally find very sensible, with a new, more elaborately described, rule text by Armorchompy that does not seem to directly relate to crossovers specifically, and as such should probably be placed in some other instruction page instead, if it is applied. Possibly Game Mechanics, but I am not certain.

Regardless, as such, I personally prefer The Smashor's set of rules.
 
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My rules definitely deal with crossovers though, they simply elaborate on the fact that profiles for characters who have no story scaling can still be done, only under certain restrictions.

@The_Smashor to be clear, which do you prefer between your suggestion and my edit to it?
 
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