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I think we should loosen our crossover rules a little bit

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The title here kinda over exaggerates what the thread wants. Can people write down what wording they would like to see implemented in the Crossover rules? I'm doing other stuff and that would make it easier to keep up with what they imply with what they say.
 
SomebodyData said:
Sephiroth literally has zero presence in Smash Bro's Story and while Gaster's profile was a lot of speculation, there were concrete elements in there like his NEP.
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Barely any concrete elements. Gaster was deleted because there was quite literally not enough to make a profile on him- not because scaling was ambiguous or he did not have enough of a presence, my dude literally did not have anything beyond NEP set in stone.

Why is presence in a story required for a profile? Most of the time in a fighting game characters will barely get any abilities from the cutscenes, almost all of it is gameplay. A character can sit around in a story for various scenes without having any noteworthy showings at all but suddenly that's fine cause he showed up? How does that make their profile any higher quality?
SomebodyData said:
Of course not, it's not even a comparison; you've just described a castrated Sephiroth profile.
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So what? It's a concrete powerset that this Sephiroth utilizes in ways we've never seen OG Sephiroth do, it's difficult not to share abilities with a character that has one of the biggest P&A walls in the site. Oh yeah, and I omitted the huge amount of P&A he gets from spirits.
 
Eficiente said:
The title here kinda over exaggerates what the thread wants. Can people write down what wording they would like to see implemented in the Crossover rules? I'm doing other stuff and that would make it easier to keep up with what they imply with what they say.
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This would be useful, yes.
 
Personally, I wouldn't oppose a profile for Smash's Sephiroth for a few reasons
  • I don't find the stats of his canon version legit, so this version calls me some attention.
  • I find Smash's Seph to be part of the "history of the character", as his canon version came back from his first game wanting to mess up Cloud, then his version in Kingdom Heart was there wanting to mess up Cloud, and now Smash's version kinda does the same.
  • While he doesn't have nearly as many powers as his canon version, it has enough to be interesting.
  • About his tier
    • No other character scales to his Supernova, which is pretty notable, if he doesn't have a profile people could look at the Smash characters and wonder "Hey, why they don't they scale to that planet-destroying sun?"
    • Scaling Seph to 3-A shouldn't be some black and white thing; yes what happened in his trailer never happened in canon, but that's not the same as his display portrayed there not being canon. Let's not act like canon is a well defined word, the trailer having never happened can be seen as both something that proves it's to be ignored or an unimportant technicality that doesn't matter, depending on who you ask. I would approve the scaling as a "likely" at worst.
In contrast, Mega Man X from Marvel vs Capcom Infinite is just too lame to have a profile. He contributes as much as any other character with notable screen time, matters as much as any character there, he only got the stones for like a minute to attack a stoneless Ultron Sigma, and we have no idea what four stones even do.
 
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I have no idea how you can see representation and a showcase of feats in a verse as bad reasons to allow a character and little relevance to not want allow it, and I have no idea why you believe those 2 profiles should be okay, I can't see how whatever reasons the latter holds aren't bad in contrast, you're not keeping us on the same page.

If it is simply that they don't have to be of low quality and that alone makes profiles like it worth making then I see that as clearly not something we can uphold.
 
Simple, your reasons for wanting a Sephiroth profile are that you think his appearance is "in character" and you don't like the main series profile's statistics.

Also, at the same time, you think a Mega Man X page would be "lame" because he "contributes to the story just as any other relevant character does"
 
Probably a bad time for me to comment since I’m going to bed right now. But the arguements against this are starting to sound less and less about crossovers and more about fighting games in general. Like the characters don’t do much in the story and they have very basic copied powers, that describes around 6 characters from street fighter alone (Sakura rips off Ryu alot, Karin rips off Ken, R Mika rips off Zangief to name a few and all three of them do practically nothing in the story).

Edit: Like if a game has a secret boss that has nothing to do with the story and gets all their powers from gameplay we don’t disallow them from having profiles so why would they suddenly be nuked due to being a crossover character. Just treat them like an original character and see how they scale to the game like that.
 
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I'm probably gonna just say that any crossover profile should be fine and is even something that some verses are already doing, literally just making sure they're up to par shouldn't be some impossible task, and if it really is so difficult, then maybe some people just shouldn't make profiles in the first place

But that's just my opinion.
 
Question: what if the original game of a character is canon to the crossover in question?

Is it allowed to have a profile?
 
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Well, my main issue is that we cannot cross-scale statistics between different continuities. Beyond that, I am rather reasonable regarding this topic.
 
Probably a separate profile page, but I am not sure. Let's wait for more input.
 
This is something I definitely should have contributed a while ago, but here we go.

Overall, the propositions in the OP seem generally okay by me. However, I should really point out some of the arguments against it, particularly the ones pointed out by SomebodyData.

It seems that a lot of the issues involving these proposals comes from certain statements from the Canon page, such as:

Main villains from non-canonical movies of Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, One Piece and the like can be allowed profiles, yet most versions of Son Goku contained in games such as Shin Budokai should not, as the only difference they hold from Canon Goku lies in their extent of power. However, given the prominence and popularity of Dragon Ball GT, alternative versions of Goku and Vegeta from this continuity have been allowed. If the alternate non-canonical version of a character is notable enough in the sense of having their own feats, and a different role and purpose, then it is possible that profiles for them can be created.
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Now, the main argument against something like Smash Sephiroth is that, by all regards, he seemingly holds no plot relevance in the game. This is particularly so due to his presence as a DLC fighter, meaning he is not weaved into the initial plot of the World of Light campaign, unlike other newcomer characters such as Ridley or King K. Rool. And standing on these grounds, yes, this is a valid case to make, especially since using the reveal trailer is a bit iffy on a scaling front, in my opinion, and could easily be called out as an outlier regardless.

That being said, I don't think Sephiroth is entirely in blatant violation of these alternate canon rules, and I think he can work as a profile. And the answer to our problem lies in this exact same line of dialogue.

While it is true that, disregarding the whole "slicing Galeem in half" thing, Sephiroth does not really have any significant feats by himself, he is still a pretty notable character within the game. For one, like the other DLC characters, you can access him after collecting 10 fighters in the World of Light and actually play through the campaign as him if you want, being able to take on the Master and Crazy Hands, Galeem and Darkhon, and the rest of the bosses. Speaking of the bosses, his whole Classic Mode campaign is designed around specifically fighting all of the bosses in the game, something that is unique to him. Not that important in the long run, but a good note.

And finally, I believe that the best supporting evidence for him is the existence of his Fighter Spirit. Every Fighter in the game has a corresponding Fighter Spirit that you receive upon beating their specific Classic Mode run (or buying it in the shop), which admittedly has a hazy level of canonicity within the lore, but it does mean that under the context of actually having an associated Spirit, Sephiroth is on par with the other Fighters.

I can admit that none of this evidence I have presented is very "knock it out of the ballpark" levels of solid. There is still viable grounds to still be unaccepting of Smash Sephiroth here. However, I would also like to say that Super Smash Bros is a very popular fighting game, even past the likes of Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat, and I really feel like in this particular case, the combination of the game's popularity and just enough justification even for the DLC characters, in my opinion anyway, should be plenty enough reason to let it in.

At the end of the day, I'm pretty sure we're just letting our rules stifle our creativity here. And while I do agree that we should continue to maintain our Canon and Crossover standards, this kind of thing really should be judged on a case by case scenario, and I believe there is more than enough support both on a canon and community front to let stuff like Smash Bros Fighters onto the wiki.

Oh, and about MvC Mega Man X, he technically has more story involvement from the sound of things than Smash Sephiroth, so I really don't understand why he can't be added either. I feel like him "holding the Infinity Stones for about a minute to attack Ultron Sigma" is still a notable contribution to the plot of his game, and should probably fall in the same vein as, say, Katsuki Bakugou obtaining One For All or Gon using his "peak adult" form. But I don't really know, and this is just my opinion.

Really hope I didn't sound too long-winded in my explanation...
 
JustSomeWeirdo said:
Simple, your reasons for wanting a Sephiroth profile are that you think his appearance is "in character" and you don't like the main series profile's statistics.

Also, at the same time, you think a Mega Man X page would be "lame" because he "contributes to the story just as any other relevant character does"
Click to expand...
That was horribly misunderstood. I didn't refer to Sephiroth being "in character" as much as how unique it was for the character in no sense of continuity to keep on showing up like this, the most notable part was that of his feats, notably his Supernova as between the tier of the cast has and the godtiers that feat is in the middle and we do not have it indexed on the wiki, which we should as it's coming from Smash. I have even seen people bullying the wiki just by seeing wrong how Seph could have that feat in gameplay and others not scale, ignoring the context that makes this so. Even if all the other reasons weren't there, showing the feats a verse has alone is incredibly signicant, I would be willing to say that any popular character at X high tier being in a crossover with characters at X low tier and having its own in your face feat clearly at a tier in between both tiers should hold a very decent chance at getting a profile, for the sole reason to represent a notable feat in a verse and the character who did it.

The other takes are likewise warped, but not worth going into.
 
You literally said that because "Sephiroth came back just to mess up Cloud" in both FF and Kingdom Hearts that it's "kinda the same" for Smash, and that you "don't think main series Sephiroth should be as strong as he's rated here" (first of all, make a CRT)

If anyone's takes are warped, it's gotta be yours, proposing whether or not a character profile is okay based on headcanon or because you'd think it would be "lame". Your own likes and dislikes have no merit in what should or shouldn't be allowed, and the fact that someone actually made staff with this mindset baffles me.
 
What if a game of a character is canon to the crossover?

The crossover works as a sequel, should a new profile or key be allowed to be created?
 
I'd imagine if that crossover is 100% a canonical part of a character's universe, then they should be eligible for a separate key.

However it could be necessary to make a page instead, depending on the circumstance (such as multiple keys)
 
JustSomeWeirdo said:
You literally said that because "Sephiroth came back just to mess up Cloud" in both FF and Kingdom Hearts that it's "kinda the same" for Smash, and that you "don't think main series Sephiroth should be as strong as he's rated here" (first of all, make a CRT)

If anyone's takes are warped, it's gotta be yours, proposing whether or not a character profile is okay based on headcanon or because you'd think it would be "lame". Your own likes and dislikes have no merit in what should or shouldn't be allowed
Click to expand...
So in other words you admit you grabbed onto the weakest reasons I had and portrayed all the reasons I had as bad based on them, dude you just have to say you disagreed with those punctual reasons and leave alone the rest, you don't need to claim they're bad and that I'm going off proposing whether or not a character profile is okay based on those few things in a vacuum. There is no further point in clarifying those based on their little relevance.

Edit for the following comment: Ok, then I respectfully disagree, as I believe we should very much case about Sephiroth/a crossover character's "feats" (if it's new in the verse) or Mega Man X/a crossover character's story relevancy when judging when allowing or not crossover characters.
 
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That was the only thing that you brought up, so it's the only thing I responded to

I literally don't care about Sephiroth's "feats" or Mega Man X's story relevancy, Sephiroth's one and only showing is a dubiously canon (at the most exaggerated best) character reveal trailer
 
JustSomeWeirdo said:
I'd imagine if that crossover is 100% a canonical part of a character's universe, then they should be eligible for a separate key.

However it could be necessary to make a page instead, depending on the circumstance (such as multiple keys)
Click to expand...
This is the character in question

vsbattles.fandom.com

Profiles I've made - Part 3

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Although the profile is outdated, I made it years ago when the crossover rules weren't so strict
 
Honestly, the biggest problem with a good chunk of potential crossover candidates is that they don't have a lot of variation oftentimes with their canon counterparts, only differing in their AP as they would scale to the verse in which they make a guest appearance, as per our regulations.

It would make our page count become artificially bloated as we essentially just include the same character over and over again with plug-and-play statistics depending on the crossover appearance in question.

This is why we usually demand that there be a notable difference between the crossover character in question and the original canon version of the character, be it additional abilities that come from their existence in the verse or notable plot importance in said verse.
 
Alright gamers, gonna go through this entire thing.

"I don't find the stats of his canon version legit, so this version calls me some attention."

This is literally the worst reason, wanting different statistics is not a good reason for wanting an alternative profile.

"I find Smash's Seph to be part of the "history of the character", as his canon version came back from his first game wanting to mess up Cloud, then his version in Kingdom Heart was there wanting to mess up Cloud, and now Smash's version kinda does the same."

This is just wanting a profile based on your own headcanon, because you think it's something the character would do. Even if this is true, bad reason.

"While he doesn't have nearly as many powers as his canon version, it has enough to be interesting."

This one's actually okay. A rare W, even. Having a different skillset prevents the character from just being "X but Y Tier"

"No other character scales to his Supernova, which is pretty notable, if he doesn't have a profile people could look at the Smash characters and wonder "Hey, why they don't they scale to that planet-destroying sun?""

I literally don't care. Assuming we didn't make the profile, this is literally something that could be fixed by putting a note in either the Smash profiles or on the Smash page itself

"Scaling Seph to 3-A shouldn't be some black and white thing; yes what happened in his trailer never happened in canon, but that's not the same as his display portrayed there not being canon. Let's not act like canon is a well defined word, the trailer having never happened can be seen as both something that proves it's to be ignored or an unimportant technicality that doesn't matter, depending on who you ask. I would approve the scaling as a "likely" at worst."

This is also tier stuff and I don't care. I'm also pretty sure the trailer would also make for weird scaling or whatever, but I really don't care.

"In contrast, Mega Man X from Marvel vs Capcom Infinite is just too lame to have a profile."

This, I 100% believe, is the worst, most asinine thing you could've possibly said. "Is too lame to have a profile" is no reason to dictate ANYTHING

"He contributes as much as any other character with notable screen time"

Ah frick he's an actual part of the story, literally what is your point here?

"matters as much as any character there,"

This is just the same thing, ngl

"he only got the stones for like a minute to attack a stoneless Ultron Sigma"

Literally what is your point? Characters get keys for temporary power boosts all the time, that's like saying we can't give Goku access to Ultra Instinct because he can only enter it for like a minute

"and we have no idea what four stones even do."

Then it's simply unquantifiable, don't give him any abilities outside of what the individual stones have done. Give him whatever tier is necessary and simply be done with it. It's literally that simple.

Keep in mind, I am NOT against either of these profiles existing and I have zero interest in what their tiers are.

"If it is simply that they don't have to be of low quality and that alone makes profiles like it worth making then I see that as clearly not something we can uphold."

Yes it quite literally is. We already have to make sure profiles are up to par, these would just be different ones....that also have to be up to par...
 
Yes. No infighting please, especially during Christmas time.

Anyway, I also think that Starter Pack makes sense above. My two concerns are that we should not allow profile pages for versions of characters that are identical to the originals except for the statistics, and that we should not scale crossover characters from any of the separate verses involved in the crossover, just from the feats within the relevant story itself. Except for that, I am open to adjusting our regulations here.
 
What about the case of Kong from Konami World?

The crossover is a sequel of his stand alone game, should it warrant a new key or profile for his crossover self?
 
I am not sure. What do the rest of you think?
 
If it is 100% certain that this version of the character is the same as from the previous game, then a separate key would make sense there.
 
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