I/O Explanation, Missing Keys, Tiers

[Voyager_666]

Hi. I've never posted here before, but the profiles for the I/O section on this wiki have been bugging me.

It seems like there's been a lot of confusion and controversy about I/O's 1-A tiering, because of the lack of keys for the characters' non-Route E' forms.

(This will be long. Spoilers ahead.)

All of the visual novel, except for Route E and E', takes place in alternate timelines / possibilities. The characters experience these possibilities in their lower-strata forms, which are street level with hax at best. For example, the vast majority of the combat in these parts of the novel involve typical human to superhuman attacks / defenses, such as guns, hand to hand combat, swords, tazers and so on. With the exception of Marduk / Ashur (the quantum computers), the characters all range between 10-C to 9-B in these routes (A, B, C, D, A', B', C', D').

In Route E (not Route E'), the 4 main characters (Hinata / {HE} and Yumi / Ishtar) enter the endless dream tower and the spiral staircase hierarchy created by Marduk, which represents an infinite amount of alternate timelines / possibilities. The characters here (Route E) are possibly 2-B to 1-B at best, because the worlds themselves that they login and logout of have limits. The steps on the spiral staircase are parallel realities that closely resemble the 'regular' 3D world (their timelines being 4D, possibly 5D due to the occurrence of time travel in some of these worlds), which places limits on each of the individual timelines, because Mutsuki / Marduk are only creating alternate dream worlds based on the 'real' world in I/O. This limits them in nature, because all of these alternate worlds have to resemble the 'original' semi-mundane reality. This would make them "a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums" as specified in the Tier 2-B description in the tiering list, unless you interpret them as at least 5-dimensional due to the existence of phenomena such as backwards time travel.

The main characters are not shown to transcend all dimensions in Route E, and it could even be argued that they're still street level with hax, because the only way they would be able to "destroy" all the alternate worlds would be by finding the original timeline, and awakening or killing the original Mutsuki, or destroying or shutting down the original Marduk, the ones creating all the alternate worlds with their dreams. None of the characters would be able to destroy a timeline in any other circumstance. They're still basically street level. Depending on your interpretation, they may be able to 'destroy' an alternate timeline simply by not observing it, which negates its 'reality,' but they still have no innate ability to destroy timelines / universes outside of the endless dream tower.

Route E' is where the characters could be said to finally become truly outerversal. Even this is up to interpretation, because of the abstract nature of the ending. To simplify things, realspace and cyberspace become fully fused here. At other points in the story, characters display Godlike abilities in cyberspace, such as shooting information blasts, producing floods that destroy worlds, creating worlds (like the MMORPG Babylon), changing their appearance and bodies on a whim by reprogramming them, and so on. This would all be possible in the 'real' world in Route E', though there are no feats in this context because the game ends soon after.

This is also partially why time and space become meaningless. Everything can be programmed, and every world is just a possibility that can be experienced by the characters choosing to observe that world. This is represented by the characters transforming into balls of light and 'rebirthing the universe,' as they choose to explore the respective alternate world they prefer, which sets that world as their reality. The extent of the possibilities this creates is highly up to interpretation, because it's not explored thoroughly in the story, which ends soon after.

In the context of a VS battle, you could believe that the characters at this level could simply choose to experience a world / timeline where they somehow win against whichever fictional character they're pitted against, or program that possibility into existence and then experience it. Again, this is up to interpretation, because the full scope of their abilities is never explored. The worlds that the characters do choose to explore 'after' this (chronologically in terms of plot) are either a beach outside of the boundaries of the universe that represents their version of 'heaven,' or semi-mundane worlds where they find their respective happy endings and go on living as regular people (Routes A' and B'). Based off of Nabu's comments in Route E' though, they could theoretically experience any world that can be programmed or thought of.

You could believe that there's a limit to the possibilities that can be programmed / experienced here as well, though they should at least be at a level of scope on par with the virtual feats displayed in spaces such as Babylon, where entire virtual worlds with supernatural elements have already been created / destroyed. It's hinted that Route A' is headed in the direction of this level of power, because cyberspace and realspace are successfully merged in that timeline, but no supernatural feats aside from small-scale resurrection take place.

Sakuya and Mutsuki may be Tier 0 in Route E' because they are the bridges that allow the meta-world to exist, but this is heavily subject to interpretation because they've mysteriously disappeared, and are not shown to do anything aside from creating the meta-world. They are at least said to be 'omnipresent' and are likely at least 1-A.

Marduk / Ashur themselves would be at least 2-B to 1-A in all routes. They're able to generate an infinite amount of worlds that resemble the 'real' world, as said before. In Route B', they begin to erase all boundaries between everything in the entire universe, which would also swallow up all lifeforms within it, making concepts, egos, existence itself, et cetera, irrelevant. They're stopped and destroyed before they complete this, but they're shown to at least have the capability to do so. This shows that they're innately capable of universal to multiversal, and potentially even outerversal feats. None of the power granted to the rest of the cast of I/O is possible without Marduk and Ashur setting the stage for its cosmology, which is potentially outerversal at peak.

Marduk and Ashur do have a significant weakness though, in the sense that theoretically they can be 'killed' or stopped by anyone who is able to access the actual computers that house their consciousnesses. They normally have defenses for this (including the ability to trap someone in an endless loop of dream worlds, summoning programs that can take the physical form of hordes of humans with guns to attack), but if a regular street-level person could somehow bypass all of this, even they would be able to stop the 2 supercomputers.

The 10-C to 9-B versions of the characters are their lower-strata forms, which are basically regular humans or superhuman cyborgs (depending on the character) in their respective timelines. Take a character like base 7-B Luffy, and none of the lower-strata versions of the characters could do anything to him. Route E is where the meta-forms of the protagonists (the higher strata consciousnesses) begin to first be explored. Route E' is where the characters could be said to gain their full 1-A potential. This is because Nabu places all realities in an unstable superposed state where everything simply becomes possibility, which essentially kills off all of humanity except for the main cast. This, however, allows them to theoretically experience any possibility they choose to observe, which frees them of the constraints of space and time.

____

If these positions are accepted by the VS Battle Community, note that I don't have enough time or familiarity with the format to edit the actual pages. I just happened to have enough time to mess around tonight to write this long post. Consider these suggestions. I'm also not going to provide scans because the story is very long and searching for individual passages is difficult and time-consuming. The scans currently up from Route E' (the ones with the orange sky background) do justify 1-A in my opinion, but only for that Route (the meta-forms of the characters). They make very little sense with no context, and are abstract enough to be open to interpretation.

 

[Abu2411]

So we should create separate keys for the characters in their 9-B or 1-A forms?

 

[Voyager_666]

Yeah. Going off the top of my head, I'd suggest these for their base (lower-strata) forms:

Hinata - 10-B regularly, 9-B after becoming a cyborg

Ishtar - 9-C

Inanna - 9-C

Masami - 9-C

Mika - 9-C

Yayoi - 10-B

Tsukasa (Enlil) - 9-B (this key is already there)

Megumi - 10-B

Nami - 10-B

Mutsuki - 10-C (physically sick and frail)

Sakuya - 9-C (basically a cyborg, but this is kept secret for most of the plot)

{HE} - 9-B, potentially far higher with hax (technology manipulation, pun not intended. Omnipotent in the virtual world, so he could hijack a nuke control system to blow up continents if he wanted to, though he never does anything like this.)

LEM - Maybe 9-C because she's a fairy with access to magic, maybe Tier 10 since she doesn't really have combat feats. Possibly even Tier 11 because she's a NPC character in a MMORPG (even though Babylon becomes 'real' in some endings)


There's a few missing profiles from the wiki (Ningirisu, Tammuz, Kosuke, Miyata, Nergal) that are 9-C in their base forms. Hinata's dad would be 10-B base.

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask Iapitus, and the active members listed in the I/O verse page to comment here.

 

[DinahLiddell]

What about the Divine Presence?

 

[Voyager_666]

What about the Divine Presence?

I'd say Tier 0, but this may be difficult to convince the rest of the wiki of. It's heavily implied, but never outright stated, that Marduk, Ashur, Nabu, and everyone else in the visual novel were simply moving according to its plan, which effectively makes the Divine Presence the ultimate 'God' of the story, and above every other character.

If the editors choose not to acknowledge the implications (which are frequent), I think they should just remove the Divine Presence page altogether.

 

[Antvasima]

You should also ask Matthew to comment here.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'll respond to this after dinner.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I do also wanna clarify that most of the info that is missing is getting added over time

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Also, who are the people in charge of the dimensional tiering revisions? I think their input would be helpful since this would probably be a good time to talk about how the revisions would apply to I/O

 

[Andytrenom]

Other than Ultima?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah, is he the only one?

 

[Andytrenom]

Probably not. But I don't know who the others are.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

" All of the visual novel, except for Route E and E', takes place in alternate timelines / possibilities. The characters experience these possibilities in their lower-strata forms, which are street level with hax at best. For example, the vast majority of the combat in these parts of the novel involve typical human to superhuman attacks / defenses, such as guns, hand to hand combat, swords, tazers and so on. With the exception of Marduk / Ashur (the quantum computers), the characters all range between 10-C to 9-B in these routes (A, B, C, D, A', B', C', D'). "

No, not really. Some of the character's stories take place in the same routes as others, and many of the characters jump between timelines, as well as ascend the hierarchy. You are right that many of these characters fight this way, but they also usually have a hacking aspect to their fights as well. For example, in the first invasion of Exarch the members of criminal were fighting in person, but also pelting the enemies with viruses. In fact, the cast of criminal died to both Viruses and the poison gas that HE brougth with him. Simply due to how the writing of the verse works, the characters appear with physical avatars in Cyberspace, and their fights are displayed in metaphor. Such as HE's fight against Criminal. You are correct in the physical sense for the character statistics, but not otherwise. You have also completely ignored that the hierarchy is made up of reality fiction differences, so even tho in the individual layer they may appear to be physically the same, it is subjective and they often have an extremely high degree of transcendence. You also ignore things like HE being superior to both Marduk and Ashur information manip wise, yet is still a physical fighter.

" In Route E (not Route E'), the 4 main characters (Hinata / {HE} and Yumi / Ishtar) enter the endless dream tower and the spiral staircase hierarchy created by Marduk, which represents an infinite amount of alternate timelines / possibilities. The characters here (Route E) are possibly 2-B to 1-B at best, because the worlds themselves that they login and logout of have limits. The steps on the spiral staircase are parallel realities that closely resemble the 'regular' 3D world (their timelines being 4D, possibly 5D due to the occurrence of time travel in some of these worlds), which places limits on each of the individual timelines, because Mutsuki / Marduk are only creating alternate dream worlds based on the 'real' world in I/O. This limits them in nature, because all of these alternate worlds have to resemble the 'original' semi-mundane reality. This would make them "a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums" as specified in the Tier 2-B description in the tiering list, unless you interpret them as at least 5-dimensional due to the existence of phenomena such as backwards time travel. "

No, you have missed the element of reality fiction differences. They are ascending a hierarchy of reality fiction differences. While you are right that they are moving up possibilities, they are becoming a greater and greater degree of 1-B at the same time. I/O runs on a simulated multiverse, not a quilted multiverse. One of the confusing things about I/O is that it does seemingly have countless alternate realities in a given layer as well, so it is sometimes hard to tell if they moved 'sideways' to an alternate reality, or upwards/downwards in the hierarchy to another possibility. However, when they are trying to reach Marduk it is pretty clear they are moving up and down with at least a single dimensional difference.

" The main characters are not shown to transcend all dimensions in Route E, and it could even be argued that they're still street level with hax, because the only way they would be able to "destroy" all the alternate worlds would be by finding the original timeline, and awakening or killing the original Mutsuki, or destroying or shutting down the original Marduk, the ones creating all the alternate worlds with their dreams. None of the characters would be able to destroy a timeline in any other circumstance. They're still basically street level. Depending on your interpretation, they may be able to 'destroy' an alternate timeline simply by not observing it, which negates its 'reality,' but they still have no innate ability to destroy timelines / universes outside of the endless dream tower. "

Yeah, they haven't. They were going to, but they got stopped from going through with their plan. You are wrong to refer to them as timelines tho, since they are clearly moving up and down instead of side to side. After all, they are dreaming a lower layer. I can get the scans where they talk about this being the case as well if you want. You are also patently wrong about them not being able to destroy a layer or universe otherwise. Enlil could destroy Marduk with the flood and the entire original Babylon as well. HE actually flipped out that one time and destroyed either an entire layer or an entire universe (which is was based on the context isn't clear). Most of the characters aren't potency/raw DC based fighters anyway, so just because one cannot (for example) punch the ground and destroy a planet, does not mean you do not have planet level AP.

" Route E' is where the characters could be said to finally become truly outerversal. Even this is up to interpretation, because of the abstract nature of the ending. To simplify things, realspace and cyberspace become fully fused here. At other points in the story, characters display Godlike abilities in cyberspace, such as shooting information blasts, producing floods that destroy worlds, creating worlds (like the MMORPG Babylon), changing their appearance and bodies on a whim by reprogramming them, and so on. This would all be possible in the 'real' world in Route E', though there are no feats in this context because the game ends soon after. "

First off, you missed the part that reality and fiction could be swapped at previous points in the story, and which one is truly real doesn't carry meaning. When Marduk and Ashur fused, the cyber and real worlds also became indestinguishable. Neither Cyberspace nor real space carries more meaning, and to think otherwise has kinda missed the point. Also, of course they could do these things beyond the hierarchy, that would be nothing to them.

" This is also partially why time and space become meaningless. Everything can be programmed, and every world is just a possibility that can be experienced by the characters choosing to observe that world. This is represented by the characters transforming into balls of light and 'rebirthing the universe,' as they choose to explore the respective alternate world they prefer, which sets that world as their reality. The extent of the possibilities this creates is highly up to interpretation, because it's not explored thoroughly in the story, which ends soon after.

In the context of a VS battle, you could believe that the characters at this level could simply choose to experience a world / timeline where they somehow win against whichever fictional character they're pitted against, or program that possibility into existence and then experience it. Again, this is up to interpretation, because the full scope of their abilities is never explored. The worlds that the characters do choose to explore 'after' this (chronologically in terms of plot) are either a beach outside of the boundaries of the universe that represents their version of 'heaven,' or semi-mundane worlds where they find their respective happy endings and go on living as regular people (Routes A' and B'). Based off of Nabu's comments in Route E' though, they could theoretically experience any world that can be programmed or thought of. "

They are beyond time and space, yes. You are also correct that the alternate worlds (including those that are High 1-B in nature) can be swapped out at the will of those outside the tower. You are wrong about the ball of light thing tho. That is them causing an even greater change, which allowed the three of them too be happy together despite them previously being gods of cyberpsace, although it is incredibly up to interpretation.

A character who they could influence with this power would probably already be stomped by them, since it is the characters outside the hierarchy who do this viewing.

" You could believe that there's a limit to the possibilities that can be programmed / experienced here as well, though they should at least be at a level of scope on par with the virtual feats displayed in spaces such as Babylon, where entire virtual worlds with supernatural elements have already been created / destroyed. It's hinted that Route A' is headed in the direction of this level of power, because cyberspace and realspace are successfully merged in that timeline, but no supernatural feats aside from small-scale resurrection take place. "

Of course there is a limit, but you have kind of missed the point. The virtual feats are equally as valid, and most of the supernatural stuff is done by information manipulation. If you are in a route where they spend most of the time in real space, then of course they will not be doing as many supernatural feats since the supernatural stuff in the verse all comes from Cyberspace. remind me which route A' was again?

" Sakuya and Mutsuki may be Tier 0 in Route E' because they are the bridges that allow the meta-world to exist, but this is heavily subject to interpretation because they've mysteriously disappeared, and are not shown to do anything aside from creating the meta-world. They are at least said to be 'omnipresent' and are likely at least 1-A. "

They clearly are tier 0, or at least an incredibly high degree of 1-A. They make up the concept of information itself, and thus have a qualitative difference above anything else that is composed by information.

" Marduk / Ashur themselves would be at least 2-B to 1-A in all routes. They're able to generate an infinite amount of worlds that resemble the 'real' world, as said before. In Route B', they begin to erase all boundaries between everything in the entire universe, which would also swallow up all lifeforms within it, making concepts, egos, existence itself, et cetera, irrelevant. They're stopped and destroyed before they complete this, but they're shown to at least have the capability to do so. This shows that they're innately capable of universal to multiversal, and potentially even outerversal feats. None of the power granted to the rest of the cast of I/O is possible without Marduk and Ashur setting the stage for its cosmology, which is potentially outerversal at peak. "

Well, Ashur doesn't show up in all the routes. I would say that the fused version of Marduk and Ashur should be Varies from at least High 1-B, but 1-A over time. I obviously disagree with the 2-B part for the reasons I said previously.

" Marduk and Ashur do have a significant weakness though, in the sense that theoretically they can be 'killed' or stopped by anyone who is able to access the actual computers that house their consciousnesses. They normally have defenses for this (including the ability to trap someone in an endless loop of dream worlds, summoning programs that can take the physical form of hordes of humans with guns to attack), but if a regular street-level person could somehow bypass all of this, even they would be able to stop the 2 supercomputers. "

This part is actually a good point that I did not consider. I guess they should have some kind of type 8 immortality on the computers that house their conciousness, good find.

" The 10-C to 9-B versions of the characters are their lower-strata forms, which are basically regular humans or superhuman cyborgs (depending on the character) in their respective timelines. Take a character like base 7-B Luffy, and none of the lower-strata versions of the characters could do anything to him. Route E is where the meta-forms of the protagonists (the higher strata consciousnesses) begin to first be explored. Route E' is where the characters could be said to gain their full 1-A potential. This is because Nabu places all realities in an unstable superposed state where everything simply becomes possibility, which essentially kills off all of humanity except for the main cast. This, however, allows them to theoretically experience any possibility they choose to observe, which frees them of the constraints of space and time. "

Physically, you are right. But if they start to move up or down the hierarchy, then they will increase or decrease in power accordingly. hax wise, however, you have completely missed the mark. Ishtar is capable of producing a shield that can block attacks from the info manip of HE, which would obviously be either High 1-B or 1-A since HE can directly oppose the full power Marduk and Ashur in their fused form. Ea also has info hax that influence HE as well, but you already know that.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Oh, another thing that you completely missed was Information Ghosts being unbound from conventional physics, which results in a much higher rating for them as well

 

[Antvasima]

Also, who are the people in charge of the dimensional tiering revisions? I think their input would be helpful since this would probably be a good time to talk about how the revisions would apply to I/O

Ultima is supposed to talk with DontTalkDT about it, and then inform me about the conclusions in private, after which we reach an agreement and they are started.

 

[Voyager_666]

The main point I wanted to make was that the characters need keys for their physical forms, which would be street level. It seems you agree on this point.

Regarding the disagreement on Route E, this is where it gets muddier, due to the incredibly complex nature of this route. The protagonists themselves aren't dreaming these layers, they're being dreamed by Mutsuki and Marduk. Perhaps I'm incorrect in calling them 'timelines,' but even so, I think the nature of this route wouldn't make it translatable to multiversal level combat. The infinite dreams that Mutsuki and Marduk have are an infinite amount of variations of the world they're living in, yet they're still constrained because they have to be based on the lives the characters have lived so far.

The idea of infinity within boundaries may seem like a paradox, so here's a metaphor that I think would help illustrate my point. The difference between any two integers is infinite, i.e., there are an infinite amount of decimals between 1 and 2. 1.01, 1.001, 1.0001, 1.00001, 1.000001, and so on. Even so, that infinity still exists within boundaries.

Mutsuki and Marduk aren't shown to dream of worlds outside of ones resembling the one they live in. So even if characters had the ability to destroy a layer, this wouldn't translate to a battle with any universe outside of I/O's canon, which makes it inapplicable to a VS battle. The characters may be multidimensional at this point, yes, but translating it to the tiering system here would only make them hyperversal on a technicality. In the rooftop scene scans from Route E on the I/O main page, Ishtar even says they're still 3rd dimensional while they're traversing the layers, which gives me the impression they're simply travelers at this point, not quite masters or gods of higher dimensions.

Route A' is the Route where they save Sakuya from Exarch.

I did miss the information ghosts, you're right on that count. I think it should still be noted that they have significant weaknesses until Route E', or the future implied by Route A', when realspace and cyberspace merge. They can still be destroyed via the 3rd dimension if Marduk and Ashur are destroyed, and they're unable to affect realspace except through technology. But I suppose their already higher dimensional nature would make them Tier 1B by default, until the entire cast becomes 1A in Route E'.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Also, who are the people in charge of the dimensional tiering revisions? I think their input would be helpful since this would probably be a good time to talk about how the revisions would apply to I/O

I am a bit busy right now so I will probably only be able to leave a post in this Thread a few hours from now, so, can anyone summarize the reasonings for I/0's Tier 1 ratings?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

" The main point I wanted to make was that the characters need keys for their physical forms, which would be street level. It seems you agree on this point. "

Yes, but hax wise they are much higher

" Regarding the disagreement on Route E, this is where it gets muddier, due to the incredibly complex nature of this route. The protagonists themselves aren't dreaming these layers, they're being dreamed by Mutsuki and Marduk. Perhaps I'm incorrect in calling them 'timelines,' but even so, I think the nature of this route wouldn't make it translatable to multiversal level combat. The infinite dreams that Mutsuki and Marduk have are an infinite amount of variations of the world they're living in, yet they're still constrained because they have to be based on the lives the characters have lived so far. "

I know that the protag aren't the ones dreaming it, but that doesn't really matter, since many of their hax back scale from Marduk and HE. They also scale by moving up and down the hierarchy. Also nah, the hierarchy is primarilly vertical as opposed to horizontal, which means they are 1-B to High 1-B instead of 2-B. As you can see here, each of the layers has at the very least a dimension-like difference. Also, nah, Marduk has a feat of just straight up dreaming an infinitely layered world based on nothing in particular.

" The idea of infinity within boundaries may seem like a paradox, so here's a metaphor that I think would help illustrate my point. The difference between any two integers is infinite, i.e., there are an infinite amount of decimals between 1 and 2. 1.01, 1.001, 1.0001, 1.00001, 1.000001, and so on. Even so, that infinity still exists within boundaries. "

I honestly have no idea what the point you are trying to make here is

" Mutsuki and Marduk aren't shown to dream of worlds outside of ones resembling the one they live in. So even if characters had the ability to destroy a layer, this wouldn't translate to a battle with any universe outside of I/O's canon, which makes it inapplicable to a VS battle. The characters may be multidimensional at this point, yes, but translating it to the tiering system here would only make them hyperversal on a technicality. In the rooftop scene scans from Route E on the I/O main page, Ishtar even says they're still 3rd dimensional while they're traversing the layers, which gives me the impression they're simply travelers at this point, not quite masters or gods of higher dimensions. "

Gave the scans above of Marduk just dreaming up a random ass infinitely layered world basically right after she was born. Why would that be inapplicable in a VS battle? Yes, they are 3D within an individual layer, but due to how reality fiction differences work they are still Hyperversal or High Hyperversal within a given hierarchy. That is one of the funny things about Pataphysics (that is what this general thing is called, when fiction within fiction within fiction is still valid). From the perspective of eachother in an individual layer they may just seem as powerful as they were before, but the beings and realms bellow them are fiction from their perspective. There is an SCP that works on this same idea

" Route A' is the Route where they save Sakuya from Exarch.

I did miss the information ghosts, you're right on that count. I think it should still be noted that they have significant weaknesses until Route E', or the future implied by Route A', when realspace and cyberspace merge. They can still be destroyed via the 3rd dimension if Marduk and Ashur are destroyed, and they're unable to affect realspace except through technology. But I suppose their already higher dimensional nature would make them Tier 1B by default, until the entire cast becomes 1A in Route E'. "

I'm not sure that was the route I was refering to but alright

Yeah, they all have type 8 on the Enigma system, which means that if that gets destroyed then they all go away, but they also will keep coming back as long as the system exists. I am not sure that them not being able to physically interact with the world is that much of a weakness due to verse equalization

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Ultima

Are you familiar with a simulated multiverse? I/O basically has that, but each of the infinite or at least approaching infinite individual of the layers is a reality fiction difference with at least a single dimensional difference. That is just for the 1-B and High 1-B stuff. I can go into 1-A later, but that isn't really under contention

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Lapitus

I/O being at the 1-B / High 1-B range seems fine going by these scans, yeah. Though I am curious regarding the Shadow Nulls being 1-B

It apparently comes from this sca stating that they are free from all classical physics, and bound only by "Quantum Theory". But not only is this horrible vague, it also makes no sense as a statement; as quantum mechanics are really just an extension of classical physics which generalizes to the microscopic world of elementary particles. Is there any scan giving more context to that? I/O seems to make a special distinction between Classical Physics and Quantum Mechanics that doesn't really exist in ordinary circumstances.

Then there is this explanation, which apparently justifies the Shadow Nulls being 12-D:

Well it could place him at 12d or 4d, since the whole point of string theory is to unify all laws of physics into one theory that can be explained and for that to happen it would require 10 dimensions of space and 1 of time. But then again higher dimensions that transcend the 3 we experience can work with their own laws of physics which transcend our own, as michio kaku describes it if beings from those higher dimensions were to get involved with us, they would seem omnipotent and omniscience to us. So in a sense even 4d beings trandcend our laws of physics But the only bound to quantum theory part is the part that's a bit harder to answer because quantum mechanics is a huge part of physics, so he would technically still be bound by the laws of physics and at the same time not be?? ... It states in the link "i can now transcend time and move back in time" but that's iffy to go back in time would require their to exist 2 dimensions of time which can only happen in the 12th dimension (which is iffy whether a dimension like this can even exist), because reaching the 4th dimension of space time doesn't allow someone to travel back in time only to be in all places in time at once

The problem is that there are a bunch of things wrong with this. First of, higher-dimensional beings don't exist beyond the laws of physics, sure, physics would seem way more abstract and hard to comprehend in a Universe with more dimensions than 3, but this would only happen because of the additional axis of movement inherent to this Universe, the underlying mathematical principles would be the exact same as ours.

So, being unbound by Classical Physics doesn't make you higher-dimensional or a higher-order being, you can have Tier 8 or 9 characters which exist outside of the laws of physics.

Travelling in time doesn't require an additional temporal dimension, either. Remember, a Dimension is pretty much just an axis of movement within space-time (i.e a direction), and the temporal dimension is no different: Accessing that additional "time-like" direction wouldn't mean you would somehow start to exist in all points of time simultaneously, it would just mean you would be capable of displacing yourself across it and changing your position in time, just like you can displace yourself across the three dimensions of space we're familiar with.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima

Thank you for the help.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Ultima

Thanks. I was starting to reconsider their 12D nature myself. I'll start looking for other feats of a place to put them. I think I recall Ea moving mountains but it was likely been done via hax more so than physical stuff. Actually, i think they would be large building level at the very least since they are capable of constructing them in cyberspace, but we can put a Likely Far Higher on the end of that

Well, they do mention some 12D physics stuff, but that is probably too vague

 

[Voyager_666]

@Ultima
Are you familiar with a simulated multiverse? I/O basically has that, but each of the infinite or at least approaching infinite individual of the layers is a reality fiction difference with at least a single dimensional difference. That is just for the 1-B and High 1-B stuff. I can go into 1-A later, but that isn't really under contention

I said in the original post that I might be fine with making the cast in Route E 1-B, but this is extremely tentative, because aside from Marduk / Mutsuki / Ashur, this would all be on technicalities.

The points you've been making have been massively misinterpreted and taken out of context by people who haven't read the VN, and apparently you.

1. There are no reality / fiction differences between the layers, despite them being hierarchical. The VN and the official I/O fanbook (relevant pages translated here [1] [2]) outright state all the worlds are real, or rather, "correct." Initially, they're all apparently imaginary, with no set starting point generated from an original top-level reality, until the protagonists accept that all the worlds exist and are necessary, negating the idea that any of them are fictional from an in-universe perspective. This renders the initial cause and effect logic perceiving the lower worlds as dreams of the higher worlds irrelevant, and restores reality to its normal state.

The choice at the climax of Route E, where they have to return to all of the worlds (which is the only choice that doesn't bring a bad end, making it canon) means the characters have to recognize all of the worlds as real, and none of them as fictional, or else they will never be able to escape the infinite dream loop. This is explained further in the official fanbook translations I linked above.

2. None of the characters besides Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur in Route E and before have multiversal level AP. They're all still fighting with guns and swords, and cyberspace still cannot affect the real world on a multiversal level at this point, except for the supercomputers and Mutsuki (who is technically asleep). HE never flips out and destroys a world, he flips out because Mutsuki dies, which destroys the world in that layer. If HE and Inanna had multiversal AP, they would be blinking codebreakers and code members (street tier goons) out of existence, instead of shooting at them, struggling, and almost dying from regular bullet wounds in Route E. Enlil still can't create a flood in the real world here like she did in Babylon, or else she wouldn't be fighting using a regular sword.

The only Route where realspace and cyberspace are completely interchangeable (not just superposed) is Route E', as stated by the official fanbook in the 2nd link I provided above. No cyberspace attacks or physical attacks, besides what Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur are capable of, come anywhere close to being universal or multiversal before Route E'.

If the characters were capable of this before, they would have behaved completely differently. The verse's higher dimensional powers are only truly reached (and surpassed) when realspace and cyberspace fully merge, which is officially stated to happen only in Route E'.

3. The characters in Route E are only higher dimensional within the infinite dream tower, which only contains worlds Mutsuki is dreaming of. These can only be worlds based on the cast's everyday lives as high school students, hackers, etc. If any of them besides Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur are displaced to a world outside of I/O, they instantly lose higher dimensional status.

The rest of the cast are not hyperdimensional outside of Mutsuki's dream loop. Mutsuki's dream loop contains an infinite amount of variations of a specific set of scenarios, and doesn't contain worlds beyond that. The higher dimensional status of the rest of the cast at this point is highly conditional and entirely dependent on Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur, and the limits set by Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur.

If you put any of the cast at that point besides Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur into, say, the Masadaverse or Marvel, they would automatically lose higher dimensional status because they'd be outside of the endless dream tower, or they would cease to exist in the case of data ghosts, who can only exist inside the endless dream tower at that point in the story.

Contrast this with say, Ren Fuji or the Living Tribunal, who are innately Tier 1 in their most powerful forms, no matter the setting. If you absolutely have to make the characters 1-B here, that's fine, but just specify that it's only within the endless dream tower.

Like I said before, I'm very tentatively OK with making the cast in Route E 1-B, but there are a ton of technicalities, weaknesses, and conditions that you haven't explained to these people who haven't read the visual novel at all. There are multiple parts of the novel you've misinterpreted in ways that contradict the official explanation as well. So make them 1-B if you must, but note the weaknesses, or else the pages won't be taken seriously by the vast majority of people who've actually read I/O.

Note that I mentioned the VS battle profiles to people who actually read the novel, all 3 of whom flat out disagreed with them. You need to reexamine the plot and have better justifications if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm with Ultima.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

" I said in the original post that I might be fine with making the cast in Route E 1-B, but this is extremely tentative, because aside from Marduk / Mutsuki / Ashur, this would all be on technicalities.

The points you've been making have been massively misinterpreted and taken out of context by people who haven't read the VN, and apparently you. "

I wouldn't say its on a technicallity, I would just say that the characters usually apply it in combat because that isn't their goal.

" There are no reality / fiction differences between the layers, despite them being hierarchical. The VN and the official I/O fanbook (relevant pages translated here [1] [2]) outright state all the worlds are real, or rather, "correct." Initially, they're all apparently imaginary, with no set starting point generated from an original top-level reality, until the protagonists accept that all the worlds exist and are necessary, negating the idea that any of them are fictional from an in-universe perspective. This renders the initial cause and effect logic perceiving the lower worlds as dreams of the higher worlds irrelevant, and restores reality to its normal state.

The choice at the climax of Route E, where they have to return to all of the worlds (which is the only choice that doesn't bring a bad end, making it canon) means the characters have to recognize all of the worlds as real, and none of them as fictional, or else they will never be able to escape the infinite dream loop. This is explained further in the official fanbook translations I linked above. "

There is tho, as my scans have already proven. Viewing something as a dream, or as a simulation, or as fiction, is a reality fiction difference save for cases like Merli. I do not think that fan guide is official, but if you have proof that it is than I am all ears, even if it were, I want to remind you that the direct source matterial supersedes statements on it. I think you missunderstand how reality fiction differences work. I also do not agree with your interpretation of the point. While I do agree that they come to decide that they all had meaning, I do not agree that this made them all equally real from an equalized view by necessity. Don't forget that this all works from a matter of perspective, and if the hierarchy is somehow negated, then that just means in that instants they are not High 1-B anymore.

First off, the bad endings are still canon, they are just some of the many observable possibilities that they are viewing from outside the hierarchy. If what you say is true, then this doesn't mean that they are not High 1-B, it just means that they are only High 1-B when in a hierarchy that is still in flux. If the characters obverving the entire hierarchy makes them all equally "real" then that just negates the reality fiction differences, destroying the hierarchy, but that is also a High 1-B feat, so good find

" None of the characters besides Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur in Route E and before have multiversal level AP. They're all still fighting with guns and swords, and cyberspace still cannot affect the real world on a multiversal level at this point, except for the supercomputers and Mutsuki (who is technically asleep). HE never flips out and destroys a world, he flips out because Mutsuki dies, which destroys the world in that layer. If HE and Inanna had multiversal AP, they would be blinking codebreakers and code members (street tier goons) out of existence, instead of shooting at them, struggling, and almost dying from regular bullet wounds in Route E. Enlil still can't create a flood in the real world here like she did in Babylon, or else she wouldn't be fighting using a regular sword.

The only Route where realspace and cyberspace are completely interchangeable (not just superposed) is Route E', as stated by the official fanbook in the 2nd link I provided above. No cyberspace attacks or physical attacks, besides what Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur are capable of, come anywhere close to being universal or multiversal before Route E'.

If the characters were capable of this before, they would have behaved completely differently. The verse's higher dimensional powers are only truly reached (and surpassed) when realspace and cyberspace fully merge, which is officially stated to happen only in Route E'."

I never contested that they were not that level. Well, I do think true form HE is, but that doesn't exactly contest your point. You don't seem to understand the difference between physical tier and hax tier. They do fight with guns and swords, but their hacking techniques are much higher than their physical tier. Saying he flips out and destroys a world in that layer is just a rephraising of my point, so I don't know what you are talking about there. Yes, without verse equalization they wouldn't be able to use their powers on a physical level, but since cyberspace is equalized to exist in other verses they are still applicable. Things like The Warp from 40k are equalized to it. if you claim that they cannot effect the physical world in normal means, that is fine, but the attacks still strike on a metaphysical level, since souls and part of the mind still exist in cyberspace.

Superposed still makes it valid. HE is still capable of wiping out a layer when he gets pissed off, but that is not physical AP.

No, because the hierarchy of reality fiction differences still grants them a 1-B to High 1-B tier, even if from a subjective level.

" The characters in Route E are only higher dimensional within the infinite dream tower, which only contains worlds Mutsuki is dreaming of. These can only be worlds based on the cast's everyday lives as high school students, hackers, etc. If any of them besides Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur are displaced to a world outside of I/O, they instantly lose higher dimensional status.

The rest of the cast are not hyperdimensional outside of Mutsuki's dream loop. Mutsuki's dream loop contains an infinite amount of variations of a specific set of scenarios, and doesn't contain worlds beyond that. The higher dimensional status of the rest of the cast at this point is highly conditional and entirely dependent on Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur, and the limits set by Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur."

This is true, save for a few things. You will note that the keys on the profiles are for them within these hierarchies. You also miss verse equalisation, which would mean the cosmology is still valid in a nuetral verse.

Yes, but verse equalisation sets the characters within a mutual cosmology, so their abilities are still valid. if we said that moving Warhammer 40k characters outside of their verse gets rid of their warp powers, then they would be complete fodder, but we don't do that here.

" If you put any of the cast at that point besides Mutsuki / Marduk / Ashur into, say, the Masadaverse or Marvel, they would automatically lose higher dimensional status because they'd be outside of the endless dream tower, or they would cease to exist in the case of data ghosts, who can only exist inside the endless dream tower at that point in the story.

Contrast this with say, Ren Fuji or the Living Tribunal, who are innately Tier 1 in their most powerful forms, no matter the setting. If you absolutely have to make the characters 1-B here, that's fine, but just specify that it's only within the endless dream tower. "

Yes, but this is also true for things like Warhammer 40k, The SCP Foundation, or Umineko. Many characters are completely useless without the context of their cosmology, but verse equalization allows them to still be fully combat applicable and compitent when displaces beyond their own world.

Did you miss the keys on the profile? I do specifically say these powers are for them within the specific hierarchies.

" Like I said before, I'm very tentatively OK with making the cast in Route E 1-B, but there are a ton of technicalities, weaknesses, and conditions that you haven't explained to these people who haven't read the visual novel at all. There are multiple parts of the novel you've misinterpreted in ways that contradict the official explanation as well. So make them 1-B if you must, but note the weaknesses, or else the pages won't be taken seriously by the vast majority of people who've actually read I/O. "

I am not defining them by routes, I'm defining them by the context of the hierarchies, since the routes are all mutually true. I am still working on cleaning up these profiles. First off, I would like proof that this fan guide is official and a link to the full thing so I may check that it is valid. You should note that we are not writing characters who are laymen outside the VS community, we are writing them for people who have an understanding of VS content. Of the people who are VS debaters and have read I/O, they agree with most of what I am saying although we disagree on a few points.

" Note that I mentioned the VS battle profiles to people who actually read the novel, all 3 of whom flat out disagreed with them. You need to reexamine the plot and have better justifications if you want to be taken seriously. "

Are they VS debaters? if not, you should definitely give them the context of the policy with which I am writing these profiles in. Of the 3 or 4 I/O people I have shown them to, they disagree with some minor things like they think Marduk should be 1-A before the start of the last route.

 

[Antvasima]

You can remind Ultima to comment here again, if he does not reply.

 

[Voyager_666]

The fanbook is official. The page that I sent is a direct translation from Lemnsica Translations (who TLed the VN originally). The reason why it's archived and no longer on Lemnsica's official website is because they became a legitimate company and can't host a copyrighted translation (such as the fanbook) on their page anymore. One of the people who translated the novel is someone who disagrees with the profiles, though none of them are VS debaters.

I disagree with you and can continue to counter your points, but I no longer feel like writing long posts on the subject, so I'll exit the thread. Just know that trying to go against even the perspective of someone who translated the source material is extremely silly.