I give my mind and SOUL (Hollow Knight SOUL CRT part 2)

[deonment]

So yeah, in Hollow Knight I think I've found enough evidence for the mind and SOUL being the same thing, or at the very least, that the mind is a part of the soul.

Spoiler: The Giga wall

Record Aba
The mind still limits us so.
How to break past its constraints?
To attain a pure focus, is it even possible?
-Soul Sanctum Lore Tablet

This is here to show what exactly the goal of the Soul Sanctum was, it was to break past the limits of the mind to attain a pure focus, this was done through taking the SOUL of bugs and infusing it into their members

-Wanderer's Journal Page 74

(Annotation of the relevant part in case the image breaks or is too hard to read)
As the infection first began to spread, a misguided sect of scholars committed a terrible sin in their workshop in the heart of the city. They sought to combat the infection by harnessing the power of soul; countless lives were sacrificed in their twisted, cruel experiments. Ultimately, it was all for naught, as the infection claimed their minds in the end as well.

Are these bizarre machines used to harvest soul from some bugs and inject it into others? How cruel...

Mistake Folly
The unfortunate products of many of the sanctum's failed experiments, these bugs' bodies have been warped and deformed beyond recognition.

These fools meddled with the soul of other creatures and lost their shape. Now they skulk through the shadows of their Sanctum like slugs, hoping their old brothers will build them new bodies.
-Mistake Hunter's Journal Entry

Then we see the result of this, in how it warped and affected the bodies and minds of the bugs who underwent the process, focusing on the latter aspect, as it shows a relationship between the mind and SOUL

Once a highly intelligent bug, deformed by the misuse of soul.
-Mistake Hunter's Journal Entry

Once a highly intelligent bug, inflated by the misuse of soul.
-Folly Hunter's Journal Entry

From this one can see that the intake of SOUL directly affected the minds of those bugs that were infused with it, even moreso when one compares their Dream Nail dialogue to not only the other members of the Soul Sanctum, but to even other infected enemies (I am not sending that laundry list of entries)

...I feel them within me...
...Mind swells...Mind aches...
-Soul Twister Dream Nail Dialogue

Where these strange warriors go, whispers follow them. Not only are they skilled with a nail, they can also use some strange power to shift suddenly from place to place. Stay on guard.
-Soul Warrior Hunter's Journal Entry

This soul...Is it my own?
These skills...No training I recall...
-Soul Warrior Dream Nail Dialogue

I can hear it...The whispering of their souls...
-Soul Master Dream Nail Dialogue

Now this here is the evidence I mainly think makes my point clear, it shows a connection between the presence of external SOUL within the enemies, and the presence of some degree of external consciousness in or nearby them, the soul twister feeling their mind swell (which can be seen as the SOUL (or the mind within the soul) now existing within their own SOUL, and thus expanding it), the Soul Warrior not only has whispers which follow them, but they have skills that they have no recollection of training for, and lastly, the Soul Master can literally hear the whispering of the SOUL he has infused within himself.
And for an additional nail in the coffin

In my dreams I could see it. The Kingdom's salvation, the cure for the plague... the answer was in the soul that animates our bodies.
-Soul Tyrant defeat dialogue

While I did use this before as additional evidence of the SOUL being Life Force, it also works in equal part here, it is literally called the thing that animates their body.

There is also some more circumstantial evidence that can be dismissed as gameplay (but I personally wouldn't), such as the Dream Nail, which acts upon the mind, being able get SOUL from a strike, along with things such as Grubsong, a charm created wholly out of gratitude, something mental, in combination with Weaversong being capable of generating soul, as well as the fact that enemies made of essence, such as ghosts and residents of the Dream Realm generate essence upon being struck.

I think this should show that SOUL is the mind of bugs, in addition to already being the soul and life force of bugs (I could technically push for it also being memories and dreams given the fact that essence beings have it, but that would already be encompassed by it being the mind)

This would give every single instance of manipulating SOUL mind manip in addition to its usual effects, and every instance of mind manip soul and life force in addition to the rest of its stuff.

In addition I think the knight should get a possibly enhanced senses for being able to see SOUL evaporating off bodies (for the enemies that leave a body after they die, ie any husk ever), despite The Hunter apparently not noticing such despite fighting and killing a bunch of people

I have heard others talk about 'soul' but I do not understand what it actually is. I do know that freshly killed meat tastes best - is that because the 'soul' still clings to it?
-Soul Twister Hunter's Journal Entry

The reason I say possibly is because I can see an interpretation of this that is less him not seeing it and more him either not noticing it or not making the connection, which I doubt but still see as a valid interpretation.

Also before people bring up characters being fine with just, having their SOUL taken by the knight as a counter to this. Yeah uh, that isn't really a proper counter, I already proposed and got accepted a limited resistance for folk simply being "fine" despite this, here (I just got lazy and forgot to apply it to literally every single profile in the verse), because SOUL is already shown to be vital to their existence, considering the mentions of it being life force or an animating essence, or the fact that it "evaporates" off the body after death, or the fact that they very much treat it with all the gravitas one would expect of a soul, as well as how it is extracted from living bugs and that this kills them in the process, so like, hollow knight bugs are just built different.

(In other news I am like, one lore drop away from giving Void NEP because despite for whatever god damn reason it is a "substance" it is in every other way considered an absence)

Edit:
I also realize that with this and the other thread being out, all characters should also gain Unconventional Resistance to Soul, Mind, and Life Force Manip, as SOUL is all of these things, and thus to affect the SOUL of characters you have to affect all three at once

 

[DavidTPPM]

TL;DR?

 

[Jackpact]

TL;DR?

Anyone that can use soul get extra mind manip, everyone get limited resistance to mind manip.

(In other news I am like, one lore drop away from giving Void NEP because despite for whatever god damn reason it is a "substance" it is in every other way considered an absence)

Watch as Silksong not give us anything if it ever come out.

 

[deonment]

TL;DR?

Soul=Mind=Life Force and all so all instances of affecting one means you affect the others and resistance to one means resistance to the others
+ giving the knight possibly enhanced senses for being able to see SOUL despite the hunter seemingly not being able to

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Void is oil

possibly enhanced senses for being able to see SOUL despite the hunter seemingly not being able to

Being able to see souls would be extrasensorial perception tho

limited resistance for folk simply being "fine"

I disagree with limited resistance. You absorb part of the soul of your enemies the moment that you damage them, making them lose part of their life force since well, you just pierced their bodies with a nail, of course they are gonna be less alive

Anyway, I agree with soul=mind=life force

 

[deonment]

Void is oil

Rip Hollownest is gonna get taken over by America

Being able to see souls would be extrasensorial perception tho

Nah, ESP only covers having a sixth sense rather than being able to see stuff that's invisible or what have you, and one of the direct examples on enhanced senses is being able to see souls

I disagree with limited resistance. You absorb part of the soul of your enemies the moment that you damage them, making them lose part of their life force since well, you just pierced their bodies with a nail, of course they are gonna be less alive

That isn't why I'm giving them limited resistance
It's because despite having parts of their literal life force and mind ripped out of their body, they are shown (seemingly) unaffected by it, even with characters you have a whole ass fight against (IE the multiple hornet fights, Zote, Dung Defender, etc etc), so it's less a typical resistance and more for those characters and more in the vein of those resistances you see about someone being able to function without their soul, but in this case its being able to function as usual with parts of their SOUL removed (Though with the eventual release of silksong I may find a better explanation for this, like what gets taken being the excess SOUL of the bug, but that's just conjecture with not much behind it), but we know that they can't function with all of it gone so it's limited

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Nah, ESP only covers having a sixth sense rather than being able to see stuff that's invisible or what have you, and one of the direct examples on enhanced senses is being able to see souls

Weird. Years ago I tried to put Enchanced Senses for JJK and it wasnt accepted since staff said that it was just extrassensorial perception (being only accepted these days due to some new stuff)

so it's less a typical resistance and more for those characters and more in the vein of those resistances you see about someone being able to function without their soul, but in this case its being able to function as usual with parts of their SOUL removed

Yeah, but like, you can heal yourself with soul, so couldn't someone heal the soul with proper rest? As its accepted, soul=life force, so technically if your life gets better, your soul also gets better
Hornet for exemple, in her first battle in Greenpath she ends up completly tired, but then come back just fine for another fight.

Its not as if they were fine after losing part of their soul.

 

[deonment]

Weird. Years ago I tried to put Enchanced Senses for JJK and it wasnt accepted since staff said that it was just extrassensorial perception (being only accepted these days due to some new stuff)

Thats just wrong

Enhanced Vision: Can see very clearly from incredible distances. Many different types of eyesight enhancement may occur:
Infrared Vision: The ability to see radiation
Thermograpic Vision: The ability to see heat
Ultraviolet Vision: The ability to see light humans cannot
Supercolor Vision: The ability to see in a wider range of color
Telescopic vision: The ability to see great distances
Microvision: The ability to see very small items
Aura Vision: The ability to see hormonal output
Chemovision: The ability to see pheromone output
Neutral Vision: The ability to see something invisible
X-Ray Vision: The ability to see through an object
Night Vision: The ability to see without light
Panoramic Vision: The ability to see 360 degrees
Multiple Vision: The ability to see in two different places at once.
Emotion Vision: The ability to see the emotions of others.
Atomic Vision: The ability to see the bonds between atoms.
Inside Vision: The ability to see the inside beauty of someone.
Soul Vision: Ability to see souls, spirits, and ghosts.

From the enhanced senses page itself

Yeah, but like, you can heal yourself with soul, so couldn't someone heal the soul with proper rest? As its accepted, soul=life force, so technically if your life gets better, your soul also gets better
Hornet for exemple, in her first battle in Greenpath she ends up completly tired, but then come back just fine for another fight.

Its not as if they were fine after losing part of their soul.

Healing from SOUL is from a pure focus, its something Higher being and higher being kin exclusive

In addition we know that hot springs restore the SOUL of anyone who rests in it and we see bugs resting in them, and Hornet should very much be aware of both their properties and where they are she could have just recovered in that way, but in the cases of bugs like Dung Defender and Zote, the former of which we know is staying where he is, and Zote, who, is Zote, we don't know if they got anything of that sort.

Also like, life force (and soul in general) is different from biology, it's the animating essence of the body, so your body healing wouldn't necessarily mean your SOUL is restored as well

It is less that they are completely fine, and more that they are very clearly more resilient towards it than like, a "typical" person would be, considering how like, it typically seems to be more physical exhaustion that does them in the cases of the bosses you fight and don't kill, like I would imagine losing literal chunks out of your mind would have a much more visible effect on non-infected enemies

 

[deonment]

bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah I think I agree with the OP

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I didnt got notifications of this lol

Healing from SOUL is from a pure focus, its something Higher being and higher being kin exclusive

I'm not saying anything about healing from soul, I'm talking about healing THE soul with rest

but in the cases of bugs like Dung Defender and Zote, the former of which we know is staying where he is, and Zote, who, is Zote, we don't know if they got anything of that sort.

Yeah... they just chill and rest

Also like, life force (and soul in general) is different from biology, it's the animating essence of the body, so your body healing wouldn't necessarily mean your SOUL is restored as well

They are still correlated in some way, since you can heal damage with Pure Focus

It is less that they are completely fine, and more that they are very clearly more resilient towards it than like, a "typical" person would be, considering how like, it typically seems to be more physical exhaustion that does them in the cases of the bosses you fight and don't kill, like I would imagine losing literal chunks out of your mind would have a much more visible effect on non-infected enenemies

I will remain neutral over this since I undertsand your point

Rest I can agree

 

[deonment]

I didnt got notifications of this lol

Forum being jank, whats new

Rest I can agree

Aight time to go bug (heh) staff about this

 

[LightSoul8]

So yeah, in Hollow Knight I think I've found enough evidence for the mind and SOUL being the same thing, or at the very least, that the mind is a part of the soul.

Spoiler: The Giga wall

This is here to show what exactly the goal of the Soul Sanctum was, it was to break past the limits of the mind to attain a pure focus, this was done through taking the SOUL of bugs and infusing it into their members

-Wanderer's Journal Page 74


Then we see the result of this, in how it warped and affected the bodies and minds of the bugs who underwent the process, focusing on the latter aspect, as it shows a relationship between the mind and SOUL


From this one can see that the intake of SOUL directly affected the minds of those bugs that were infused with it, even moreso when one compares their Dream Nail dialogue to not only the other members of the Soul Sanctum, but to even other infected enemies (I am not sending that laundry list of entries)




Now this here is the evidence I mainly think makes my point clear, it shows a connection between the presence of external SOUL within the enemies, and the presence of some degree of external consciousness in or nearby them, the soul twister feeling their mind swell (which can be seen as the SOUL (or the mind within the soul) now existing within their own SOUL, and thus expanding it), the Soul Warrior not only has whispers which follow them, but they have skills that they have no recollection of training for, and lastly, the Soul Master can literally hear the whispering of the SOUL he has infused within himself.
And for an additional nail in the coffin

While I did use this before as additional evidence of the SOUL being Life Force, it also works in equal part here, it is literally called the thing that animates their body.

There is also some more circumstantial evidence that can be dismissed as gameplay (but I personally wouldn't), such as the Dream Nail, which acts upon the mind, being able get SOUL from a strike, along with things such as Grubsong, a charm created wholly out of gratitude, something mental, in combination with Weaversong being capable of generating soul, as well as the fact that enemies made of essence, such as ghosts and residents of the Dream Realm generate essence upon being struck.

I think this should show that SOUL is the mind of bugs, in addition to already being the soul and life force of bugs (I could technically push for it also being memories and dreams given the fact that essence beings have it, but that would already be encompassed by it being the mind)

This would give every single instance of manipulating SOUL mind manip in addition to its usual effects, and every instance of mind manip soul and life force in addition to the rest of its stuff.

In addition I think the knight should get a possibly enhanced senses for being able to see SOUL evaporating off bodies (for the enemies that leave a body after they die, ie any husk ever), despite The Hunter apparently not noticing such despite fighting and killing a bunch of people

The reason I say possibly is because I can see an interpretation of this that is less him not seeing it and more him either not noticing it or not making the connection, which I doubt but still see as a valid interpretation.

Also before people bring up characters being fine with just, having their SOUL taken by the knight as a counter to this. Yeah uh, that isn't really a proper counter, I already proposed and got accepted a limited resistance for folk simply being "fine" despite this, here (I just got lazy and forgot to apply it to literally every single profile in the verse), because SOUL is already shown to be vital to their existence, considering the mentions of it being life force or an animating essence, or the fact that it "evaporates" off the body after death, or the fact that they very much treat it with all the gravitas one would expect of a soul, as well as how it is extracted from living bugs and that this kills them in the process, so like, hollow knight bugs are just built different.

(In other news I am like, one lore drop away from giving Void NEP because despite for whatever god damn reason it is a "substance" it is in every other way considered an absence)

Wholeheartedly agree. (Also I know this is unrelated but Shades should get Type 2 AE for being the literal regrets of the deceased (Also-also my headcanon is that since the Wanderer's Journal proves that both normal mode and Steel Soul mode are canon, the reason The Knight dies for good in the latter is because they, much like the Siblings, are unable to come to terms with their regrets. Nearly every single one of Confessor Jiji's lines support this.))

Soul=Mind=Life Force and all so all instances of affecting one means you affect the others and resistance to one means resistance to the others
+ giving the knight possibly enhanced senses for being able to see SOUL despite the hunter seemingly not being able to

Same with this.

 

[deonment]

(Also I know this is unrelated but Shades should get Type 2 AE for being the literal regrets of the deceased (Also-also my headcanon is that since the Wanderer's Journal proves that both normal mode and Steel Soul mode are canon, the reason The Knight dies for good in the latter is because they, much like the Siblings, are unable to come to terms with their regrets. Nearly every single one of Confessor Jiji's lines support this.))

Nope, when the knight gains voidheart its said they have come completely to terms with their "regrets" which means that it shouldn't form anyways, and anyways shades are literally just the internal void of the vessels that is released upon their death, and given what we know about the void, the shades being formed by regrets doesn't make sense

 

[LightSoul8]

Nope, when the knight gains voidheart its said they have come completely to terms with their "regrets" which means that it shouldn't form anyways, and anyways shades are literally just the internal void of the vessels that is released upon their death, and given what we know about the void, the shades being formed by regrets doesn't make sense

I personally disagree, but I don't want to derail the thread, so maybe I'll make a CRT one day (whenever I care enough about it to, if I ever do)

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[deonment]

Made an edit to the CRT to give people unconventional resistance towards having their SOUL be affected

 

[DavidTPPM]

Made an edit to the CRT to give people unconventional resistance towards having their SOUL be affected

I'm not sure if that'll get accepted. GoH has a similar resistance due to their soul existing within their core element which is a type 3 concept and type 2 information, meaning to affect it you also need cm3 and im2.

But when someone proposed adding it as unconventional resistance to profiles it was denied as it's not exactly a resistance.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah this makes sense. I agree.

 

[Theglassman12]

looks fine to me

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Agree

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[deonment]

This has been accepted so I'll get to applying it