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Tbh I think just going with 10 would be better. I know it’s more than 10, but just going with 15 seems kinda… highball-ish?
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Hunter x Hunter Overhaul (Scaling)
- Thread starter LordTracer
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GodlyCharmander
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I mean, the statement itself says it's between 10 and 20, so 15 would be midball-ish. But, with the narrative confirming that Gon can overcome the natural gap between him and Knuckle in base + 10x with the latter's Ko to the point where he can one shot, 15x feels justified imo.
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Well, even though the attack varies depending on the amount of damage, I guess it should still be in the profile.
Edit: Or maybe a "Varies through Rising Sun" should work
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It's not logically unjustified or anything, but we have a lot of precedents for going for low-ends as a rule on the wiki.
GodlyCharmander
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Damn. So the 15x has to go? Welp, that sucks. We could have a vote about it, but if it's a rule, there's no point.
Jajanken, and Big Bang Impact will have a "likely far higher" on their Ko rating rather than a fixed multiplier. How about that?
EDIT: As in, "they can one shot the previous value" kind of far higher.
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Sound good but the multiplier of 10 seems pretty fine
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Yeah, that sounds good. Thing is, there really is nothing inherently or logically wrong with the 15x, but we go for lower ends to minimize or eliminate any sort of assumptions when dealing with multipliers because they can get abused sometimes.
So in cases where we have a "range", for example, a statement about a power up being "dozens of times", we go for 24 instead of 48 or 96 just to be on the safe side. Likewise, when we have a multiplier scaling far above another one, we tend to go for simply scaling the superior amp unquantifiably above the lower, more established one. Because, again, multipliers really can get out of hand and massively inflate the ratings.
It sucks for fair, logical, and harmless cases like this, but upon further consideration it's probably something that should be applied uniformly for fairness' sake.
I hope that rant made sense.
GodlyCharmander
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Ko already is 10x, and Jajanken can one shot who scales to their Ko durability (if relatively comparable).
"Gon: Multi-City Block level physically, Small Town level with Ko (Ko uses 10x more aura than a regular punch), far higher with Fully Charged Jajanken (One shot Knuckle while he was using Ko)" would be the structure I am suggesting.
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This is not said. It is said that it is at least 10 times. The translator who interpreted it as 10 to 20 times
GodlyCharmander
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Updated. Would Jajanken upscale to 7-B, though?
GodlyCharmander
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"Ten odds times" is between 10 and 20, or "chance in the tens". Some translate to "tens of times", some translations give "dozens of times".
- 15,556
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- #854
This looks good to me.
Yeah, probably. It’s only a 1.15x difference after all, that should be fine.
GodlyCharmander
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Sooo... About Killua's durability calc... A lot of trees seemed to be violently fragmented at the near end of it, wouldn't Inverted Square Cube apply here? Better than judging an explosion by its size alone, right? Most Nen explosion far outweigh their size results by their sheer effect.
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I gave an evaluation. The 9-A and 9-B+ feats look good but the 9-B feat from the "break someone to shreds" statement might be hyperbolic
GodlyCharmander
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Thank you Dragon, and you're probably right about the tone of the line.
Then I believe these were the last relevant calculations for the verse. I sincerely thank you for showing up, otherwise we'd be stuck here for weeks on end. If we have anything minor left to evaluate, we won't bother you anymore.
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I don't think that it is a rule, but determined case-by-case. It is a bit more common for our calc group to choose the lower ends though.
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Oh. You meant multipliers, not calculations. My bad then. Sorry about that.
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No problem, don't worry about it.
And yes, we're discussing a range of multipliers in this case (10 to 20, and we know it's more than 10 through in-verse scaling), but from my experience we usually go for the low end of the multiplier to prevent inflation and other multiplier related issues.
GodlyCharmander
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So like, Lifting Strength... We gon' talk about that, right? It's very simple. Obviously LS won't scale the same way AP does, as the latter takes Aura Potency into consideration, while LS cares far less about that. (As it simply strengthens one's base might)
Either way, very simple stuff.
Class M characters are upscaled from Uvogin's Class K feat. (1000 tons)
Who scales:
Class K characters are scaled to Uvogin's feat (723 tons)
Who scales:
Class 100 characters are upscaled from the previous value. (100 tons)
Who scales:
Class 50 characters are scaled to EL Killua pushing a 64-ton door casually (>64 tons)
Who scales:
Class 25 characters are scaled to nenless Killua pushing a 16-ton door. (>16 tons)
Who scales: HA Gon, BoS Killua, Zushi, Wing, HA Killua, YS Kurapika, EL Leorio, Pokkle
Class 10 characters are scaled from Gon, Kurapika and Leorio pushing the first two doors. (4 tons up to 8 tons)
Who scales: BoS Leorio, BoS Kurapika, BoS Gon.
Class 1 characters are scaled to 5 times baseline athletic humans from Gon pulling a fish that can overpower 5 large adult males. (600kg)
Who scales: Hanzo.
Sorry, I am too mentally tired to make the scaling now. If someone else could do it, I'd appreciate... Or wait until I'm a little better
Either way, very simple stuff.
Class M characters are upscaled from Uvogin's Class K feat. (1000 tons)
Who scales:
Class K characters are scaled to Uvogin's feat (723 tons)
Who scales:
Class 100 characters are upscaled from the previous value. (100 tons)
Who scales:
Class 50 characters are scaled to EL Killua pushing a 64-ton door casually (>64 tons)
Who scales:
Class 25 characters are scaled to nenless Killua pushing a 16-ton door. (>16 tons)
Who scales: HA Gon, BoS Killua, Zushi, Wing, HA Killua, YS Kurapika, EL Leorio, Pokkle
Class 10 characters are scaled from Gon, Kurapika and Leorio pushing the first two doors. (4 tons up to 8 tons)
Who scales: BoS Leorio, BoS Kurapika, BoS Gon.
Class 1 characters are scaled to 5 times baseline athletic humans from Gon pulling a fish that can overpower 5 large adult males. (600kg)
Who scales: Hanzo.
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Can we use the multiplier with the LS feat?
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Btw leorio did the fate pushing pre heavens arena arc all by himself in the manga
- 15,556
- 16,175
- Thread starter
- #866
I think this is too big of a gap to upscale. Same with the Class 100 upscaling.
Theendzero13
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i do not think we can , like i don't think any major verse does at least
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It depend on if they are vastly superior to Uvogin. Meruem for example.
- 15,556
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- #869
Well, I could see someone like Meruem or maybe Pitou upscaling, assuming that they have a decent scaling chain (i.e. Uvogin < Netero < Pitou < Meruem).
But the Class 50 value is way too low to upscale to Class 100, regardless of scaling chain.
But the Class 50 value is way too low to upscale to Class 100, regardless of scaling chain.
GodlyCharmander
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A 1.3x gap isn't big at all... Youpi and Meruem are more than justified imo
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- #872
I personally agree, but I’ve seen a lot of times where upscaling wasn’t allowed for such a gap.
Theendzero13
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i think the 723 to 1000 is ok , we just need to be strict with who scales to it (aka: only the bodhisivatta, , meruem, pitou ,youpi and adult gon should scale)
64 to 100 is too big of a gap the difference is over 1,5 times, and the feat was done by killua who not many people scale massively above, as a matter of fact nobody physically weaker than uvo is massively above killua
i suggest :
killua and those who scale: at least 64 tons, possible higher (did this "link for the feat" casually)
silva and zeno as well as those who scale: at least 64 tons, possible 256 tons ( can possibly open up to the seventh gate of the zoldyck manor, each one having double the weight of the last)
PS: 64 tons is class 100 already https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lifting_Strength
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GodlyCharmander
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I agree with that. and sorry about the class 50 thingy, I was confused because they have also mistaken 16 tons as class 50-
Theendzero13
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Ok, no problem
GodlyCharmander
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Didn't you have a problem with my AP scaling?.... You should probably address that, no?
Theendzero13
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I think i can go over with it now( i was waiting for the liffting discussion to end and it seens to have concluded )
Theendzero13
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so here is your scaling
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Theendzero13
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my problem starts on the 8-A and lower scaling , too simple put it there is no justification for some characters being there and or there are anti-feats or statements in favor of them not being there
first with the 278 tons crowd
- godspeed killua, godspeed was never stated to increase AP much less 2 times, it is only show to increase speed and reactions
- CA enraged gon is unquantifiable above his base self, nothing shows a 2 times increase
-full power biscuit has no business being on the same level as full power uvo, she simple lacks feats and is not an enhancer , homever she is unquantifiable above the people who scale to 50% uvo due to having 5/5 physical strenght in the databooks while hisoka, another transmuter, only has 4/5
-zarzam scaling is fine since she technically did a nen contract and broke feitan's arm with one atttack( albeit he was weakened ), homever her dura seens to be much higher as she can tank feitan's ko despite being unable to kill a weakened feitan with multiple attacks, so zarzam should be : 278,73 tons, with 1,36 killotons durability , ripper cyclotron and jupiter should scale to this since phinks and bonolenov were confident that they could kill transformed zarzam
-pouf has a couple of anti-feats but since the entire royal guard is supposed to surpass human limitations he scaling to uvo is fine if everyone agrees
-transformed shanark only feat is one-shotting a peon ant and a non combative officer, no proof that he scales to the squadron leader and the rest of the troupe his base should be above kalluto and his transformation should only be higher
now for the next ones ( 46 tons crowd ) they all come down to the same problem: why do you scale the following characters to base kurapika:
GI Gon (Post-Training), GI Killua (Post Training), Binolt, Genthru, Fodder Ants, Kalluto, Kortopi, Welfin, Meleoron, Palm, Rammot, Shalnark.
-for my understanding there is nothing who shows then to be on a comparable level like no feat on this level nor any character of equal caliber fought, as a matter of fact razor blocked gon's rock, and razor is comparable to hisoka, so GI gon and killua cannot be that strong otherwise the scaling breaks, also kortopi is featless and physically the weakest spider
for last the 11 tons guys:
-to put it simple i do not think there is justification for downscaling, that is normally something you only do in situations where clearly outmached but can stiil survive serious attacks, i do not think those guys have that,
-Furthermore while in GI gon and killua learned KEN which is a techinique who amps their bodies with 10 times more aura than REN which is what gon and killua used to amp their bodies with before switching to KEN, so people like binolt, pakunoda and shizuku who scaled to them before they even got training from biscuit and learned KEN should be around 10 times weaker by default
that is pretty much it, if you want clarification fell free to ask
first with the 278 tons crowd
- godspeed killua, godspeed was never stated to increase AP much less 2 times, it is only show to increase speed and reactions
- CA enraged gon is unquantifiable above his base self, nothing shows a 2 times increase
-full power biscuit has no business being on the same level as full power uvo, she simple lacks feats and is not an enhancer , homever she is unquantifiable above the people who scale to 50% uvo due to having 5/5 physical strenght in the databooks while hisoka, another transmuter, only has 4/5
-zarzam scaling is fine since she technically did a nen contract and broke feitan's arm with one atttack( albeit he was weakened ), homever her dura seens to be much higher as she can tank feitan's ko despite being unable to kill a weakened feitan with multiple attacks, so zarzam should be : 278,73 tons, with 1,36 killotons durability , ripper cyclotron and jupiter should scale to this since phinks and bonolenov were confident that they could kill transformed zarzam
-pouf has a couple of anti-feats but since the entire royal guard is supposed to surpass human limitations he scaling to uvo is fine if everyone agrees
-transformed shanark only feat is one-shotting a peon ant and a non combative officer, no proof that he scales to the squadron leader and the rest of the troupe his base should be above kalluto and his transformation should only be higher
now for the next ones ( 46 tons crowd ) they all come down to the same problem: why do you scale the following characters to base kurapika:
GI Gon (Post-Training), GI Killua (Post Training), Binolt, Genthru, Fodder Ants, Kalluto, Kortopi, Welfin, Meleoron, Palm, Rammot, Shalnark.
-for my understanding there is nothing who shows then to be on a comparable level like no feat on this level nor any character of equal caliber fought, as a matter of fact razor blocked gon's rock, and razor is comparable to hisoka, so GI gon and killua cannot be that strong otherwise the scaling breaks, also kortopi is featless and physically the weakest spider
for last the 11 tons guys:
-to put it simple i do not think there is justification for downscaling, that is normally something you only do in situations where clearly outmached but can stiil survive serious attacks, i do not think those guys have that,
-Furthermore while in GI gon and killua learned KEN which is a techinique who amps their bodies with 10 times more aura than REN which is what gon and killua used to amp their bodies with before switching to KEN, so people like binolt, pakunoda and shizuku who scaled to them before they even got training from biscuit and learned KEN should be around 10 times weaker by default
that is pretty much it, if you want clarification fell free to ask
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GodlyCharmander
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His Aura can burn Youpi's cheek.
Being an absolute menace to Morel by his sheer killing intent alone, being a threat to Pitou with Ten, Netero trusting Gon to deal with a Royal Guard, the mental state of someone increasing one's power significantly. This is justified.
You answered yourself, she has top tier physicals. Uvogin scales above 278 tons, btw. He was mostly unfazed by 55.7 tons.
They already do, it's their Hatsu, it obviously scales above their Ko.
Nope, his Hatsu is all about making him strong, much like Killua's is making him fast, it should be above his Ko.
Suuure, let me answer these.
Both are identical to their beginning of CA selves who could content with Knuckle and Shoot, although clearly weaker than both before training. They all are candidates to help deal with Chimera Ants.
Both scale to the former two.
Gave some trouble to weaker members of the troupe. Base Kurapika can injure a Paralyzed Uvogin, much like the Shadow Beast, which considers the troupe including the weaker members to be strong, and were killed by the troupe including the weaker members.
Kortopi is stronger than Kalluto, Kalluto can kill fodder ants.
Fodder Ants.
Was a candidate to help dealing with the Chimera, therefore should be at least able to deal with the weaker ones.
Stomped pre needleless CA Killua.
Stronger than Kalluto.
Razor is stronger than Hisoka, by a lot. Let me prove this to you.
Razor, using a fraction of his power, could break and make Hisoka struggle a lot.
Razor only showed his full power by the very end of the match.
In response, Hisoka has to combine with Gon, and Killua, to block his attacks.
Also, Razor is far stronger than Fully Charged Jajanken, my guy.
I have no idea why would think that Hisoka is comparable to him in the slightest when this happened.
Kalluto self proclaimed as the weakest among the troupe.
Siiiiiigh... False. At least, kind of false.
"Ken (堅ケン, Ken; "Fortify") is the advanced version of the basic Ten and Ren techniques. It is a primarily defensive technique where a Nen user maintains a state of Ren for a prolonged amount of time.[16] The amount of aura surrounding the user's body during Ken is about 10 times higher than during Ten."
Ken is basically prolonged Ren. Ken is 10x the Ten technique, not Ren. Being able to fight Ren Pre Training Gon doesn't make you 10x weaker than his Ren self.
Injured Binolt is far above Pre Training Gon and Killua, so nope. Also Pakunoda and Shizuku are the ones who were downscaled from the Troupe, Pakunoda got her arm broken by YS Gon, and Shizuku is physically pathetic. Shizuku is still stronger with her Nen to the point she can one shot Nobunaga.
I hope that suffices.
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