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Tampering with this franchise is the last thing I want to do now, but I promised my friends to help out with the most important verse-wide revision. After this, I'll be completely done with Honkai.
All credits to @ThanatosX for this CRT
(everything in the OP is from his point of view)
Honkai Impact/Hoyoverse Cosmology Upgrade
It’s been a while. Part 1 finished, the entirety of Part 1,5 came and went and we are now into Part 2, and there was still no trace of this revision, which is honestly one of the most talked about aspects of the series, at least from what I could see online.
But it’s finally here … Today, we are here to talk about the cosmology upgrade for the Honkaiverse! This will mainly revolve around Honkai Impact, but it will affect the entirety of the Hoyoverse as a whole since it’s been confirmed on several occurrences that all of them are a part of the same meta-cosmology, as Honkai Star Rail, Guns Girls Z, Genshin Impact and potentially the still not out Zenless Zero will be affected, though the last two simply for being part of the cosmology and nothing more until something more solid comes out for those.
So, we will jump straight into it, but before actually discussing what makes cosmology so high in the first place, I think we first need to establish something about what we are talking about
The Dimensions of Honkai Impact
This is just an introduction to establish the way this revision and cosmology in general should be viewed. It’s really important to notice that, when dimensions are mentioned in Honkai Impact, they always, and I mean always, refer only to actual dimensions, and never to other things.
When characters talk about things like other realities they use terms like “Universes”, “Parallel Universes”, “Leafs”, “Worlds” or “Bubble Universe”, aka Universes within the Sea of Quanta which have varying sizes. The term Dimensions is only ever used to talk about actual dimensions, not parallel realities or anything of the sort.
I think it’s also important to note that these dimensions have already been accepted as valid because they see lower dimensions as nothing more than books or pieces of fiction that they can easily destroy without problems. This little digression was mainly to avoid several discussions over the term “dimensions” and the validity of said dimensions, so now we can finally move on to the actual focus of the revision …
And that should be all. The proposal is to make the Imaginary Tree scale to Low 1-A via all of the above, which I will make a td;lr summarisation for lazy users. But I know there will be another question, which is …
Who’ll scale?
All credits to @ThanatosX for this CRT
(everything in the OP is from his point of view)Honkai Impact/Hoyoverse Cosmology Upgrade
It’s been a while. Part 1 finished, the entirety of Part 1,5 came and went and we are now into Part 2, and there was still no trace of this revision, which is honestly one of the most talked about aspects of the series, at least from what I could see online.
But it’s finally here … Today, we are here to talk about the cosmology upgrade for the Honkaiverse! This will mainly revolve around Honkai Impact, but it will affect the entirety of the Hoyoverse as a whole since it’s been confirmed on several occurrences that all of them are a part of the same meta-cosmology, as Honkai Star Rail, Guns Girls Z, Genshin Impact and potentially the still not out Zenless Zero will be affected, though the last two simply for being part of the cosmology and nothing more until something more solid comes out for those.
So, we will jump straight into it, but before actually discussing what makes cosmology so high in the first place, I think we first need to establish something about what we are talking about
The Dimensions of Honkai Impact
This is just an introduction to establish the way this revision and cosmology in general should be viewed. It’s really important to notice that, when dimensions are mentioned in Honkai Impact, they always, and I mean always, refer only to actual dimensions, and never to other things.
When characters talk about things like other realities they use terms like “Universes”, “Parallel Universes”, “Leafs”, “Worlds” or “Bubble Universe”, aka Universes within the Sea of Quanta which have varying sizes. The term Dimensions is only ever used to talk about actual dimensions, not parallel realities or anything of the sort.
I think it’s also important to note that these dimensions have already been accepted as valid because they see lower dimensions as nothing more than books or pieces of fiction that they can easily destroy without problems. This little digression was mainly to avoid several discussions over the term “dimensions” and the validity of said dimensions, so now we can finally move on to the actual focus of the revision …
The Imaginary Tree
What is the Imaginary Tree? It’s the origin of the laws and reality, a construct that transcends reality and the Sea of Quanta, which branches out into an infinity of worlds which are on its branches like leaves. The Tree is currently rated as 1-B for being “qualitatively superior” (in a dimensional tiering sense) to the Sea of Quanta, which is already accepted as having infinite expanding 11 dimensions within it. However, this rating ignores several statements in regards to it that would put it far higher than that, more specifically to Low 1-A. It’s my objective to bring up and discuss said statements in this revision, which can be grouped up into sections, one mainly mathematical and the other-dimensional, with some additional arguments later on.
What is the Imaginary Tree? It’s the origin of the laws and reality, a construct that transcends reality and the Sea of Quanta, which branches out into an infinity of worlds which are on its branches like leaves. The Tree is currently rated as 1-B for being “qualitatively superior” (in a dimensional tiering sense) to the Sea of Quanta, which is already accepted as having infinite expanding 11 dimensions within it. However, this rating ignores several statements in regards to it that would put it far higher than that, more specifically to Low 1-A. It’s my objective to bring up and discuss said statements in this revision, which can be grouped up into sections, one mainly mathematical and the other-dimensional, with some additional arguments later on.
Mathematical statements:
The first one, which is the main one many think about when talking about rating the Tree, is the statement made by Einstein. Simply put, she says that by applying the concept of transfinite numbers, the Imaginary Tree would be infinite in scale in a transfinite sense. If you know anything about transfinite stuff then you would know this is a big deal, but alone might not be enough.
However, other statements jump in our support in this situation. The Imaginary Space, a space that exists beyond reality but still within and around the Tree, is stated in the “Honkai Impact Art Collection Vol 1.” to be “a sign of Absolute Infinity”. For those that don’t know it, Absolute Infinity is a mathematical term used to describe “a number that is bigger than any other conceivable or inconceivable quantity, either finite or transfinite”. This is remarkably consistent with the statement about the Tree being infinite on a transfinite scale, as the transfinite numbers directly correlate to the Tree and reference to absolute infinity under the context. It should also be noted that no concept is beyond absolute infinity, otherwise, it’ll just end up with crap tons of contradictions.
And everything becomes even more consistent once we look at another statement, this one in the game. During the final battle against Otto Apocalypse, he describes the power of the Imaginary Tree as “absolutely infinite”, once again giving consistency to the claim that the Imaginary Tree indeed scales to such a rating.
However, I want to make a couple of notes regarding this argument. First of all, I asked privately to Ultima Reality where absolute infinite would rate in our new system, even sending him the first two scans of “infinite in a transfinite sense” and “absolute infinite” (I didn’t remember about the Otto statement at the time) and he indeed confirmed to me that it would possibly/likely scale to Low 1-A.
Second, I would like to immediately say that saying that the developers used these terms without knowing what they mean is not a good argument that should be used. In the game, there are several examples of scientific terms used to explain mathematical and dimensional stuff, like, for example, there is the Riemannian Manifolds, which Sirin can create to trap Sigfried and Cecilia, or Bernhard Manifolds, which are used concerning the Sea of Quanta. To say that they would use these terms without knowing them when they have already shown that they know their fair share in this argument, would be pretty absurd.
Another thing to note is that there are no other interpretations for the term “Absolute Infinity”. You can just search it on Google and you would find that what I posted above is the only interpretation of the term, and if they meant to say that it was just “infinite” and nothing else they could easily have used other terms. The fact that they also used mathematical terms in the past and that they, later on, say that the Imaginary Tree is “infinite in scale in a transfinite sense” is the nail in the coffin that proves all of this.
One statement alone wouldn’t be enough to qualify, but with the terminology used and the detailed description of the scale of the Tree, I would say that it’s hard to overlook this kind of argument without some big leaps in logic. But this isn’t the only argument in favour of the Tree being Low 1-A, so let’s pass to the second one, not to mention transfinity and absolute infinity were mentioned multiple times.
The first one, which is the main one many think about when talking about rating the Tree, is the statement made by Einstein. Simply put, she says that by applying the concept of transfinite numbers, the Imaginary Tree would be infinite in scale in a transfinite sense. If you know anything about transfinite stuff then you would know this is a big deal, but alone might not be enough.
However, other statements jump in our support in this situation. The Imaginary Space, a space that exists beyond reality but still within and around the Tree, is stated in the “Honkai Impact Art Collection Vol 1.” to be “a sign of Absolute Infinity”. For those that don’t know it, Absolute Infinity is a mathematical term used to describe “a number that is bigger than any other conceivable or inconceivable quantity, either finite or transfinite”. This is remarkably consistent with the statement about the Tree being infinite on a transfinite scale, as the transfinite numbers directly correlate to the Tree and reference to absolute infinity under the context. It should also be noted that no concept is beyond absolute infinity, otherwise, it’ll just end up with crap tons of contradictions.
And everything becomes even more consistent once we look at another statement, this one in the game. During the final battle against Otto Apocalypse, he describes the power of the Imaginary Tree as “absolutely infinite”, once again giving consistency to the claim that the Imaginary Tree indeed scales to such a rating.
However, I want to make a couple of notes regarding this argument. First of all, I asked privately to Ultima Reality where absolute infinite would rate in our new system, even sending him the first two scans of “infinite in a transfinite sense” and “absolute infinite” (I didn’t remember about the Otto statement at the time) and he indeed confirmed to me that it would possibly/likely scale to Low 1-A.
Second, I would like to immediately say that saying that the developers used these terms without knowing what they mean is not a good argument that should be used. In the game, there are several examples of scientific terms used to explain mathematical and dimensional stuff, like, for example, there is the Riemannian Manifolds, which Sirin can create to trap Sigfried and Cecilia, or Bernhard Manifolds, which are used concerning the Sea of Quanta. To say that they would use these terms without knowing them when they have already shown that they know their fair share in this argument, would be pretty absurd.
Another thing to note is that there are no other interpretations for the term “Absolute Infinity”. You can just search it on Google and you would find that what I posted above is the only interpretation of the term, and if they meant to say that it was just “infinite” and nothing else they could easily have used other terms. The fact that they also used mathematical terms in the past and that they, later on, say that the Imaginary Tree is “infinite in scale in a transfinite sense” is the nail in the coffin that proves all of this.
One statement alone wouldn’t be enough to qualify, but with the terminology used and the detailed description of the scale of the Tree, I would say that it’s hard to overlook this kind of argument without some big leaps in logic. But this isn’t the only argument in favour of the Tree being Low 1-A, so let’s pass to the second one, not to mention transfinity and absolute infinity were mentioned multiple times.
Dimensional statements:
So, the Imaginary Tree is currently rated as 1-B… however, it’s important to note that it’s stated that it doesn’t exist in any dimension. The statement further supports Einstein’s elucidation of the Imaginary Singularity which is also the Cocoon of Finality (this claim will be explained later), specifically saying that it carries no dimensional information and that it’s overall dimensionless, a “Pure Singularity”. And no, before anyone declares any zero-dimensionality nonsense, this does not imply Zero-dimensionality at all. For it to be zero-dimensional, it would need to be a real singular point of infinitesimal size with absolute qualitative inferiority. Especially considering the Imaginary Singularity has been said to not be a real point with the lack of dimensional information and correlation with black holes, which contradicts the properties of a real singularity. It means that it’s a nondimensional concept, which is something entirely different
And speaking of, what is the Imaginary Singularity and where should it and the Imaginary Tree be rated considering these statements? Well, it’s later explained that the only Imaginary Singularity is the Cocoon of Finality (therefore Imaginary Singularity = Cocoon of Finality); it’s also said straightforwardly, that the Cocoon transcends all dimensions (Kiana also mentioned because at that point she became one with the Cocoon), meaning that it not only is dimensionless, but it is straight-up beyond all dimensions. It should be mentioned that transcending all dimensions is already Low 1-A by default.
So, what is the conclusion of all of this dimensional yapping? The Imaginary Singularity and the Imaginary Tree are dimensionless and, simultaneously, completely transcend all dimensions, making the Low 1-A rating for the Imaginary Tree even more solid.
In this case, I believe there is plenty considering that it is straight-up stated that they don’t exist in any dimension and are dimensionless altogether. As said, the Imaginary Singularity reaches the Cocoon of Finality which I already proved to be dimensionless, it should logically transcend over the Imaginary Tree since no corresponding statements have been said about the Tree, and it is mentioned to be a dimension itself.
Now, some of you may be wondering that my proposition towards the Imaginary Tree being “a part of the dimensions category” may contradict my previous claim of it not existing in any dimension; let me clarify: The statement about the Tree not existing in any dimension indicates that it isn’t inside nor does it share any continuity with any other dimensions, but it doesn’t mean the Tree itself isn’t categorised as a dimension.
With these points deduced, the Cocoon of Finality can qualify for 1-A via transcending the Imaginary Tree.
So, the Imaginary Tree is currently rated as 1-B… however, it’s important to note that it’s stated that it doesn’t exist in any dimension. The statement further supports Einstein’s elucidation of the Imaginary Singularity which is also the Cocoon of Finality (this claim will be explained later), specifically saying that it carries no dimensional information and that it’s overall dimensionless, a “Pure Singularity”. And no, before anyone declares any zero-dimensionality nonsense, this does not imply Zero-dimensionality at all. For it to be zero-dimensional, it would need to be a real singular point of infinitesimal size with absolute qualitative inferiority. Especially considering the Imaginary Singularity has been said to not be a real point with the lack of dimensional information and correlation with black holes, which contradicts the properties of a real singularity. It means that it’s a nondimensional concept, which is something entirely different
And speaking of, what is the Imaginary Singularity and where should it and the Imaginary Tree be rated considering these statements? Well, it’s later explained that the only Imaginary Singularity is the Cocoon of Finality (therefore Imaginary Singularity = Cocoon of Finality); it’s also said straightforwardly, that the Cocoon transcends all dimensions (Kiana also mentioned because at that point she became one with the Cocoon), meaning that it not only is dimensionless, but it is straight-up beyond all dimensions. It should be mentioned that transcending all dimensions is already Low 1-A by default.
So, what is the conclusion of all of this dimensional yapping? The Imaginary Singularity and the Imaginary Tree are dimensionless and, simultaneously, completely transcend all dimensions, making the Low 1-A rating for the Imaginary Tree even more solid.
In this case, I believe there is plenty considering that it is straight-up stated that they don’t exist in any dimension and are dimensionless altogether. As said, the Imaginary Singularity reaches the Cocoon of Finality which I already proved to be dimensionless, it should logically transcend over the Imaginary Tree since no corresponding statements have been said about the Tree, and it is mentioned to be a dimension itself.
Now, some of you may be wondering that my proposition towards the Imaginary Tree being “a part of the dimensions category” may contradict my previous claim of it not existing in any dimension; let me clarify: The statement about the Tree not existing in any dimension indicates that it isn’t inside nor does it share any continuity with any other dimensions, but it doesn’t mean the Tree itself isn’t categorised as a dimension.
With these points deduced, the Cocoon of Finality can qualify for 1-A via transcending the Imaginary Tree.
The two above are the arguments that, to me, are the most solid, but I believe that it is fair to also bring up other statements regarding the Imaginary Tree and the scale of cosmology as a whole to give a better picture.
For example, we have some interesting statements about the relationship between reality and the Imaginary Tree, with Nagamitsu explaining that to the Tree, reality is nothing more than a game and everyone within the realities are just characters within the game. The Tree contains all of the data and it can use this data to do what it wants, including erasing the game worlds in their entirety, creating new ones and merging them, with literally no restriction for the Tree in what it can do, contrary to the characters within the games which are limited by the fact that they are just characters within the game. Otto also explains that even time itself is just data record on a vinyl from the perspective of the Tree. In itself, this might not mean much, since I don’t think this is enough to qualify for the new Reality > Fiction standards, but it is obvious that, along with everything else explained before, it paints a pretty clear picture of the Tree as something far beyond everything else in the verse, something completely above the scope of everything and everyone that isn’t empowered by the Tree itself.
I don’t think this matters much, but we also have an in-depth explanation of Prometheus about how civilization and reality are composed of narratives, of stories within stories, with the Project Stigmata being the narratives about narratives to govern all stories and to reach the “absolute idea of self existence” and “conceptual infinity”. I am honestly unsure how this would be rated all things considered, especially with our new standards, but I would like to just throw this in here to emphasize how deep the cosmology goes.
For example, we have some interesting statements about the relationship between reality and the Imaginary Tree, with Nagamitsu explaining that to the Tree, reality is nothing more than a game and everyone within the realities are just characters within the game. The Tree contains all of the data and it can use this data to do what it wants, including erasing the game worlds in their entirety, creating new ones and merging them, with literally no restriction for the Tree in what it can do, contrary to the characters within the games which are limited by the fact that they are just characters within the game. Otto also explains that even time itself is just data record on a vinyl from the perspective of the Tree. In itself, this might not mean much, since I don’t think this is enough to qualify for the new Reality > Fiction standards, but it is obvious that, along with everything else explained before, it paints a pretty clear picture of the Tree as something far beyond everything else in the verse, something completely above the scope of everything and everyone that isn’t empowered by the Tree itself.
I don’t think this matters much, but we also have an in-depth explanation of Prometheus about how civilization and reality are composed of narratives, of stories within stories, with the Project Stigmata being the narratives about narratives to govern all stories and to reach the “absolute idea of self existence” and “conceptual infinity”. I am honestly unsure how this would be rated all things considered, especially with our new standards, but I would like to just throw this in here to emphasize how deep the cosmology goes.
And that should be all. The proposal is to make the Imaginary Tree scale to Low 1-A via all of the above, which I will make a td;lr summarisation for lazy users. But I know there will be another question, which is …
Who’ll scale?
I think the discussion should be about who should scale to the Tree and the Cocoon of Finality, with everything else kept for another thread, but three things should undoubtedly scale to make all this make sense, which are:
- The Cocoon of Finality: part of the reason for the Imaginary Tree to scale to Low 1-A is that it’s directly connected or one level of infinity below the Cocoon’s nature as an Imaginary Singularity, and as such not scaling directly to it would be illogical. There is also the fact that the Cocoon is the entity that controls Honkai itself, which would mean that it should at least scale to the pinnacle of the Tree, if not above it since it is affected by the Honkai too.
- False God Otto’s Immortality: Otto’s page, like the pages of many other characters, is not in good condition and for some reason, it lacks the Immortality Type 8 section, despite him specifically saying that as long as his domain is bathed in the grace of the Imaginary Tree he is immortal. This is a huge absence to me and one that I think should be fixed in future, and when that happens it should automatically scale the Tree too, for obvious reasons.
- Kiana’s Imaginary Renormalization: for the same reason, Kiana’s Imaginary Renormalization should scale too, since it can turn the “absolute infinite” power that the Tree provided to Otto into something finite by manipulating the power of the Void, which is the closer ones to the Imaginary Space and the Tree. As such, it should also automatically scale.
The Imaginary Tree is consistently portrayed as far beyond anything in the verse, including the Sea of Quanta, with statements putting its scale as “infinite in scale in a transfinite sense” and “absolute infinity”. It doesn’t exist within any dimension, with the Cocoon of Finality being an Imaginary Singularity that exists within it which is dimensionless and at the same time transcends all dimensions. The Tree also see reality as nothing more than a game, storing the data of said game within itself and being able to manipulate them with no restriction, with civilization also being stated to be based on narratives.
All things considered, I think a Low 1-A rating for all of this should be solid. The Authority of Finality/Herrscher of Finality Kiana and the characters who scale to it/her can qualify for 1-A.
Oh, and Kiana should have type 2 beyond dimensional existence in her Finality Key, due to transcending all dimensions.
All things considered, I think a Low 1-A rating for all of this should be solid. The Authority of Finality/Herrscher of Finality Kiana and the characters who scale to it/her can qualify for 1-A.
Oh, and Kiana should have type 2 beyond dimensional existence in her Finality Key, due to transcending all dimensions.
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Bro got fooled
