How does Cosmic Armor Superman qualify for his tier?

[Laurcus]

So I recently finished reading Superman: Beyond because I was curious to see CAS's full array of feats in context and this has left me very confused. I apologize if anything I'm about to say is incorrect on controversial, I'm just trying to understand the tiering system and where a character like CAS fits into it.

So I'm just gonna throw it out there. Based on the fact that regular universes come up to his knees when he's in Nil, to me it seems like CAS, Mandrakk and really anything in Nil, (And by extension all of the realms Nil is above.) do NOT have qualitative superiority over regular 3 dimensional universes. https://i.gyazo.com/eb7156239b3039c6d576259b773ed77b.jpg

Furthermore at the time when this was written, the DC multiverse seemed to only consist of 52 universes. Note Mandrakk's words in this scan. https://i.gyazo.com/4b6d77dc2b6c7108180de52f2e9cab95.jpg

We also get a wide shot of the multiverse later on, clearly showing there's a finite amount of universes in it. Note the tube on the right side of the page containing all the universes. https://i.gyazo.com/e562bc50ea64065d05b9cd0bca1bd9a2.jpg

Since CAS, Mandrakk and the things they're destroying are not infinitely larger than these 3D universes, I don't understand how these characters can be tiered higher than 2-C. I certainly don't see any justification for a rating as high as 1-A. The way I see it, even just 2-A would be infinitely larger than just that tiny amount of universes, and therefore infinitely larger than CAS, Mandrakk or anything they destroyed.

What am I missing here?

 

[Xearsay]

That structure in Nil is how the flaw appears from the outside on a higher level. Additionally the flaw after being contained by the Orrery of Worlds was magnified by the Overvoid so his probe Mandrakk could study it. As it was considered infinitesimal prior to magnification. So what we’re seeing next to CAS is how the flaw appears from the outside on a higher level after being magnified from an infitesimal state.

Furthermore, the 52 universes are referenced because they’re the known ones. There was actually multiple multiverses during this time. Additionally how many universes existed doesn’t really matter as there are many higher structures beyond a multiverse in Grant Morrison’s cosmology. Examples are like The Bleed, The Speed Force, Wonderworld, the Godsphere, The Red, Worlds beyond the Red, the Great Light, Comic Book Limbo/The Implicate Order, etc.

And Limbo scales far, like really far. If you want to understand how far Comic Book Limbo scales, check out my thread involving the cosmology. https://vsbattles.com/threads/animal-man-cosmology-upgrade-lets-do-this-the-right-way.137779/

CAS has his tier because his ontological level scales to the realm of the Overvoid, which is waaaaaaaay beyond Limbo. He actually should be higher but that’s my opinion.

 

[Laurcus]

That structure in Nil is just how the flaw appears from the outside on a higher level. Additionally the flaw after being contained by the Orrery of Worlds was magnified by the Overvoid so his probe Mandrakk could study it. As it was considered infinitesimal prior to magnification. So what we’re seeing next to CAS is how the flaw appears from the outside on a higher level after being magnified from an infitesimal state.

Furthermore, the 52 universes are referenced because they’re the known ones. There was actually multiple multiverses during this time. Additionally how many universes existed doesn’t really matter as there were many higher structures beyond a multiverse in DC during this time. Examples are like The Bleed, The Speed Force, Wonderworld, the Godsphere, The Red, Comic Book/The Implicate Order, etc.

Fair enough about the multiple multiverses, but the stuff about the Flaw being magnified seems like really weak evidence to justify such a high tier.

Here's the reasons why I think that evidence is weak.

First off, none of those statements are really contextualized. To me it looks like the magnification is simply looking inside the universes at the "terrifying unforeseen complexities and contradictions." To me that seems to be talking about regular mortal life within those universes. The magnification is just for seeing those complexities. There's nowhere in that scan where it states that the multiverse itself is being enlarged from the perspective of anyone in Nil.

I also think my interpretation is supported by its description of germ-like. Sure, the word infinitesimal is used, but that is a very vague term that basically just means really small. Germ-like is more specific and makes a ton of sense if it's talking about mortals within those universes. I mean, if a universe comes up to your knees then a regular human is kind of like a germ to you.

So none of that is very convincing to me, especially when it comes to something like assigning a character an extremely high tier. I would think evidence for something like that would need to be ironclad and completely beyond reasonable dispute.

And while as you point out there are other realms such as the Sphere of the Gods, since Nil is above those realms if Nil is not qualitatively superior to 3D universes then none of those other realms are either since presumably they are smaller than Nil.

 

[Xearsay]

Fair enough about the multiple multiverses, but the stuff about the Flaw being magnified seems like really weak evidence to justify such a high tier.

Here's the reasons why I think that evidence is weak.

First off, none of those statements are really contextualized. To me it looks like the magnification is simply looking inside the universes at the "terrifying unforeseen complexities and contradictions." To me that seems to be talking about regular mortal life within those universes. The magnification is just for seeing those complexities. There's nowhere in that scan where it states that the multiverse itself is being enlarged from the perspective of anyone in Nil.

I also think my interpretation is supported by its description of germ-like. Sure, the word infinitesimal is used, but that is a very vague term that basically just means really small. Germ-like is more specific and makes a ton of sense if it's talking about mortals within those universes. I mean, if a universe comes up to your knees then a regular human is kind of like a germ to you.

So none of that is very convincing to me, especially when it comes to something like assigning a character an extremely high tier. I would think evidence for something like that would need to be ironclad and completely beyond reasonable dispute.

It said “Magnification reveals a structure of infitesimal rippling manifolds, upon whose surface intricate germ-like processes thrive and multiply.” Implying the entire structure is being magnified so that they can look inside it. So the flaw being magnified inside the jar that sits in Nil already proves that it was essentially made to appear larger than it actually is relative to CAS.

Also, it’s much more likely that they’re calling the universes germs as the universes are called germs multiple times throughout Superman Beyond. Which wouldn’t make sense if universes were literally larger than the Monitors while they’re in Nil. To add on, I also gave evidence that this is just how the Multiverse appears from the outside on a higher scale. Which you seemed to have ignored.

And while as you point out there are other realms such as the Sphere of the Gods, since Nil is above those realms if Nil is not qualitatively superior to 3D universes then none of those other realms are either since presumably they are smaller than Nil.

This is the kind of stance I don’t get. Instead of admitting your interpretation of Nil is wrong you’d rather cut out and ignore all the evidence these other locations have of being superior to a multiverse just so they could fit into your interpretation of the cosmology. Which is basically the same thing as creating contradictory headcanon btw, and if you have to go that far just so your interpretation can make sense then that should probably tell you that it doesn’t.

 

[Unwanted]

There are higher planes of existence within the sphere of the gods alone

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

DC has downgrades that are going to come through. I think CAS is going to be 1-C. Apparently the revisions were done a while ago but for some reason they're dragging their damn feet on implementing them.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

DC cosmology is going to become 1-C at the Monitor's Sphere? That's pretty funny

 

[Firestorm808]

DC has downgrades that are going to come through. I think CAS is going to be 1-C. Apparently the revisions were done a while ago but for some reason they're dragging their damn feet on implementing them.

No revisions have been done. Only the proposal has been drafted.