DC Comics - Animal Man Cosmology Determination

[Xearsay]

So in the past there’s been a lot of Animal Man threads that have attempted to try and change Animal Man’s tier. These threads either failed or succeeded but would leave out lots of information. Which is pretty understandable as the 1988 Animal Man run is kind of long and can be confusing at times. Even I myself feel like I’ve gotten many things wrong in past threads involving this character. However after spending months reading the story over and over again, I think I’ve finally actually figured it all out.

Quick introduction. This thread is going to basically cover the cosmology presented in Animal Man and Animal Man’s tier. The cosmology in Animal Man incorporates some stuff from David Bohm's theory of the Implicate Order, The Many Worlds theory, and Shamanistic cosmological ideas.

To start off I’ll have to introduce you to something called the Red/Lifeweb and the structures it comprises. The first two structures aren’t really that important from a cosmological standpoint but I will briefly go over them. The first kingdom is the domain of quantum physics/spirit. It exists beneath our experiences. The second is our 3D reality.(Animal Man #82) Encompassing our 3D reality is obviously our native universe or world/spacetime continuum. It is important to note that the word “world” is most often used throughout the Animal Man run to reference our spacetime continuum.(Animal Man #24)
To add on, there is also a multiverse of multiple universes.

Multiple Universes
Multiple Universes is a concept that was accessed by Buddy after he went into a coma.

• The Universe works off of The Many Worlds theory and is splitting all the time.(Animal Man #32)
• The Universe is constantly splitting and there are any number of different Animal Mans.(Animal Man #32).
• While in the wrong universe Buddy would sense the feeling of being surrounded by a myriad of phantom Buddy’s stretching in all directions towards infinity.(Animal Man #32)

Since the universe is constantly splitting into new branches with there being any number of alternative universes and countless variations of Animal Man stretching in all directions towards infinity, this is 2-A.

Moving on I’d like to cover a realm that is important to Buddy’s scaling but not that significant to the overall scaling of the cosmology.

Space Beyond All Knowing
Lying behind and outside our native universe is the Space Beyond All Knowing. A place not of time and space, the moment before created existence.(Animal Man #50)

• While in the Space Beyond all knowing Buddy would describe the experience of dreaming our reality as being everywhere and nowhere in the space of his own mind.(Animal Man #50)
• A universe hidden behind ours where thought becomes the template.(Animal Man #50)
• An uncreated place that is not of time and space.(Animal Man #50)
• Everywhere in the space of the dream, worlds come to be without effort.(Animal Man #50).

The tier of this realm is most likely Low 1-C as it’s the space of the dream where thought becomes the template and the Animal Masters bring forth the dream of the universe.

Now that these have been covered, we can get into the nitty gritty.

Hierarchy of Universes
Encompassing our world is a hierarchy often called The Physical or Interconnected Universe.

• While in the Implicate Order, The Writer would describe David Bohm’s Implicate Order theory as a vast and interconnected universe with every part containing the whole.(Animal Man #14)
• The Universe is a system of wholes consisting of smaller and smaller wholes spiraling down until our world is but a single cell in the Body of God.(Animal Man # 88)
• In an interconnected universe, who’s dreaming who?(Animal Man #14)
• After having a conversation with Buddy about the Implicate Order, reality, and God, James Highwater would claim all that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.(Animal Man #19)

The hierarchy of universes is a vast interconnection where each part of the universe contains the whole, with the universe being a system of these wholes made up of smaller and smaller wholes continuing downward until our native world/reality is like a cell in the body of God. With the body of God representing the whole system and there being reality to fiction differences between each smaller whole in the system. As even the Writer would wonder who dreams who within the interconnection.

The Lifeweb/The Red
Spanning to encompass the entirety of space, time and then stretching even higher is the Lifeweb.

• The lifeweb spans both space and time.(Animal Man #86).
• While in the Lifeweb, Buddy would recognize himself in mirrors reflecting higher dimensions.(Animal Man #80)
• The three kingdoms of mind, energy, and spirit, are the web of life.(Animal Man #87).
• While in the Lifeweb, Buddy would claim that he is floating in a sea without time.(Animal Man #80)
• Buddy senses that the Lifeweb(an upward structure) is stretching all the way into infinity.(Animal Man #80)

Existing beyond the Lifewebs stretch of both space and time, this level of the Lifeweb treats higher dimensions as just images reflected from mirrors sitting in a timeless sea. Also it is important to note that the Lifeweb continues stretching beyond this level all the way into infinity.

Peak of the Lifeweb
At the top and highest level of the Lifeweb resides the Imaginal worlds and the Third Kingdom.

• The lifeweb was spun across all the imaginal worlds.(Animal Man #86)
• These worlds of the imagination transcends the limits of our minds so that when we attempt to talk about them, we get trapped in paradoxical language games.(Animal Man #82)
• The imaginal realms by definition exist outside of space and time.(Animal Man #82)
• The imaginal worlds are a higher plane of existence.(Animal Man #86)
• The Imaginal worlds are at the top of the lifeweb and beyond Buddy’s world.(Animal Man #89)
• The imaginal worlds is a realm of archetypes, images suspended in the mirror of more fundamental and foundational realities.(Animal Man #85)
• To reach the Third Kingdom the White Queen had to remove Buddy’s self or his ego.(Animal Man #86)
• Is a storehouse for all the ideas that haunt our dreams, myths, and fantasies. This goes as far to even include scientific thought experiments such as Laplace’s demon and Maxwell’s demon.(Animal Man #86)
• Imagination is infinite.(Animal Man #50)

Since the the Lifeweb stretches to encompass both space and time and then also goes beyond that by encompassing a realm where higher dimensions are just reflections in mirrors within a timeless sea, we can conclude that if the Lifeweb kept stretching all the way into infinity each stretch would encompass more levels that would seemingly trivialize the last. With the imaginal worlds sitting at the top of Lifeweb functioning as more fundamental and foundational realities that exist outside of time and space.

The World Soul
Conceptually encompassing the entire Lifeweb as the big idea and the whole amongst wholes is the World Soul.

• The World Soul is the big idea of the whole universe.(Animal Man #86)
• It is the whole amongst wholes in the mind and body of god.(Animal Man #88)
• The World Soul is the “hidden consciousness” of The Universe.(Animal Man #87)
• Is a higher level of consciousness formed from the swarm of ideas spurred from the imagination.

As stated above, the World Soul conceptually encompasses the three kingdoms/Lifeweb as the big idea and transcends it simultaneously as the whole amongst wholes in the mind and body of God. Surpassing every individual soul in creation and seeing every soul as one.

Worlds beyond the Third Kingdom
Standing beyond the three kingdoms/Lifeweb and existing as a larger structure than the World Soul, are the worlds beyond the third kingdom(Animal Man #87), where Buddy Baker met the Black Queen.

• Within these realms Buddy was able to sense the explicate unfolding from the implicate order allowing him to access a higher state of understanding and enlightenment known as thunder perfect mind/The Philosopher’s stone.(Animal Man #87)
• Additionally, contained within these worlds/lands beyond the third kingdom was also the World Soul.(Animal Man #87) These worlds beyond the third kingdom must be even greater in size than the World Soul for them to be able to contain it.
• To reach these worlds Buddy had to become “pure thought” and take unto himself the image of the Body of God.(Animal Man #87)
• The worlds beyond the third kingdom are not mentioned to be a part of the Lifeweb.(Animal Man #86)
• Creation is considered a pattern of life/vortex that forms in a sea of consciousness.(Animal Man #87)

Sitting external to the entirety of the Lifeweb, while also containing the World Soul itself which conceptually encompasses the whole universe/lifeweb and all three kingdoms as something called “the big idea” the Worlds Beyond the Third Kingdom are probably the most mysterious part of the cosmology. Nobody actually knows about them except for Buddy and the Black Queen.

The Great Light
Existing as a middle ground between the Implicate Order and reality is the Great Light.

• A door into the impossible. The Light represents a middle ground between the Implicate Order and reality.(Animal Man #24)
• It is a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality. From it unfolds the continuous process of creation and destruction.(Animal Man #12)

The Great Light is the idea/manifestation of the vast absence or non-existence that lies behind what Animal Man calls reality. Whether this idea the Great Light represents is the void or something else, is never actually specified. However, knowing that this is Morrison I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a manifestation of the void meant to function as a middle ground between the Implicate Order and reality. As the Great Light is indirectly referred to as the comic book page.(Animal Man #24)

The Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo
Transcending all of what I’ve mentioned so far is the Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo.

• The beings in the Implicate Order look down on what goes on in the Great Light as a story to entertain.(Animal Man #24)
• Even beings residing in the Implicate Order know they’re fictional characters.(Animal Man #25).
• James Highwater would even go as far to say that beings are just the memories of old fashioned characters who don’t fit the continuity anymore.(Animal Man #24)
• From the narration of the Writer who lives in the Implicate Order, everything Buddy has known. Everything that is, was, and shall be, is only a hallucination.(Animal Man #19)
• The implicate Order is the higher world out of which reality unfolds.(Animal Man #24)
• It’s the primal reality. All our dreams of ideal worlds are just attempts to describe the infinite possibility of this higher primal reality.(Animal Man #19)
• One of the conditions of existence in the Implicate Order is that there are no stories.(Animal Man #25).
• Nothing is real. Not even the creators who reside in the Implicate Order.(Animal Man #24).

The Implicate Order is essentially the highest structure within the cosmology presented in Animal Man. It treats everything Buddy has ever known, that is, was, and shall be, as only a hallucination with nothing, not even the creators/authors who reside in the Implicate Order being considered real. Furthermore, the Implicate Order trivializes all ideal worlds imaginable to the point where they’re just attempts at trying to describe the Implicate Orders infinite possibility. Due to this it’s within reason for us to say that the Implicate Order must stand so completely beyond the entirety of the cosmology beneath it to such a degree that no ideal world/realm imaginable is enough to describe it. It’s also important for me to point out that all stories and characters a part of continuity come to an end at the Implicate Order. With everything and everyone unfortunate enough to be forgotten and winding up there functioning on a level that stands absolutely outside of the narratives and stories that define existence.

Here is the scaling chain of the cosmology for tiering.

1. Multiple universes: 2-A
2. Space Beyond all knowing: Low 1-C
3. Hierarchy of Universes: 2-C to High 1-B
4. Lifeweb: Low 1-A
5. Peak of the Lifeweb: low 1-A
6. World Soul: 1-A
7. Worlds Beyond: 1-A
8. Implicate Order: High 1-A

 

[Xearsay]

I’d also like to make an abilities addition thread as I feel like he’s missing some stuff and will need more abilities for his second key if my last proposal gets accepted.

 

[LordTracer]

So my first proposal is to change Buddy’s tier from wall level to “9-B varies up to 2-C with powers” due to blatantly creating a universe.

I can’t give any input here because I know nothing about Animal Man, but do you mean Low 2-C here? 2-C is for multiple universes.

 

[Xearsay]

I can’t give any input here because I know nothing about Animal Man, but do you mean Low 2-C here? 2-C is for multiple universes.

My mistake. Yeah I meant low 2-C. I’ll edit my post to change this.

 

[Transcending]

I agree

 

[Udlmaster]

Very nicely made.

Clear and concise.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Xearsay]

Bump

 

[Xearsay]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Bump

You can only bump 8 hours after the previous post :/

 

[Greatsage13th]

You can only bump 8 hours after the previous post :/

My mistake

 

[Xearsay]

Bump

 

[Xearsay]

Bump

 

[Confluctor]

Was asked to tag some people @Antvasima @Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234 @LuciferDC099 @Elizio33

idk who else to tag

 

[Firestorm808]

I'll get through sorting out the information when I can.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems far more reasonable than the old attempts to upgrade this character to High 1-A, but I am not certain.

@Deagonx @LuciferDC099 @Sandman31 @Planck69

What do you think about this?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Buddy shouldn't be wall level at any point of his story. 9-A+ is the absolute lowest possible level you can put him at

 

[LuciferDC099]

I don't have time atm but i'll read this and give my input tomorrow

 

[Xearsay]

Buddy shouldn't be wall level at any point of his story. 9-A+ is the absolute lowest possible level you can put him at

Do you have any scans to suggest that his low end is above wall level?

Edit: Nvm I found some.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't have time atm but i'll read this and give my input tomorrow

Thank you for helping out. It is appreciated.

 

[Xearsay]

Bump. Need help with evaluating the cosmology.

 

[Confluctor]

Shouldn't buddy be left for some other time? Feels like he needs his own dedicated thread, no?

 

[Xearsay]

Shouldn't buddy be left for some other time? Feels like he needs his own dedicated thread, no?

We can do it that way if you guys want.

Edit: I actually agree. Scaling the cosmology is already going to be a lot of work so I’ll just leave Buddy’s tier for another thread.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here exactly? Isn't it better to wait for @LuciferDC099 ?

 

[Xearsay]

So what should we do here exactly? Isn't it better to wait for @LuciferDC099 ?

We can wait for him. However other people can also come in and weigh in their input if they want.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I will call for them.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Alonik @The_Impress

Your help would be appreciated here.

 

[Eficiente]

Very good job in general. Looking at the Space Beyond All Knowing part, I don't think it's Low 1-C.

 

[Xearsay]

Very good job in general. Looking at the Space Beyond All Knowing part, I don't think it's Low 1-C.

What tier do you propose? I had it at low 2-C originally but then I thought because it’s a space beyond the dream of our native universe that it’d be low 1-C. However I could be wrong on this.

 

[LuciferDC099]

Looks good overall. For the tier of Space Beyond All Knowing i'm not sure about Low 1-C, but you can ask members more knowledgeable on tiering system.

 

[Xearsay]

Looks good overall. For the tier of Space Beyond All Knowing i'm not sure about Low 1-C, but you can ask members more knowledgeable on tiering system.

Will do.

 

[Malomtek]

The tier of this realm is most likely low 2-C as it’s a space predating and containing the dream of our native universe.

Don't you mean (at least) Low 1-C, since worlds are continually being generated by that realm "without effort", and it exists beyond regular space and time?

Also, how far does this "hierarchy of universes" go? If it's something like an infinite fractal or "endless universal stack", then the even higher realms of this cosmology can easily be rated 1-A or even High 1-A.

 

[Xearsay]

Don't you mean (at least) Low 1-C, since worlds are continually being generated by that realm "without effort", and it exists beyond regular space and time?

When they say "worlds come to be without effort" they were just talking about planets. As Buddy only recreated our native universe from the space beyond all knowing. However it could be Low 1-C as it's essentially the space where thought becomes the template and where the Animal Masters existed dreaming up our native reality. However everyone else has disagreed with this for some reason so I'm waiting to here why.

Also, how far does this "hierarchy of universes" go? If it's something like an infinite fractal or "endless universal stack", then the even higher realms of this cosmology can easily be rated 1-A or even High 1-A.

The hierarchy is endless as it spirals down until our universe is nothing but a single cell in the body of God. With the body of God representing the entirety of the system.

 

[Antvasima]

@LuciferDC099 @Confluctor @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @LordTracer

So has what was suggested in the first post of this thread been accepted then?

 

[LordTracer]

I reiterate that I know nothing about Animal Man, so I can’t give any real input.

 

[Xearsay]

@LuciferDC099 @Confluctor @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @LordTracer

So has what was suggested in the first post of this thread been accepted then?

Confluctor told me he wasn’t interested in this thread btw. And yes the evidence and information was accepted. All we have to do is work out the tiers for each thing I listed at the bottom of the post.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Which tiers do the rest of you think seem appropriate?

 

[Malomtek]

When they say "worlds come to be without effort" they were just talking about planets. As Buddy only recreated our native universe from the space beyond all knowing. However it could be Low 1-C as it's essentially the space where thought becomes the template and where the Animal Masters existed dreaming up our native reality. However everyone else has disagreed with this for some reason so I'm waiting to here why.

Since metaphysical realities are consistently portrayed as higher categories of being in Animal Man, and "our native reality" is but a dream to the denizens of the "Space Beyond All Knowing", one can confidently rate this realm as Low 1-C.

hierarchy is endless as it spirals down until our universe is nothing but a single cell to the body of God. With the body of God representing the entirety of the system.

The scans you brought up didn't mention how many specific levels this hierarchy "spirals down", although the fact that the (physical) universe is described as the "body of God", composed of interconnected "wholes" within "wholes" that "spiral down" until they are no more than a cell of the "body of God", does seem to suggest infinite recursion in terms of how these "wholes" are stacked, and an infinitely bigger series of "God-bodies".

 

[Eficiente]

Since metaphysical realities are consistently portrayed as higher categories of being in Animal Man, and "our native reality" is but a dream to the denizens of the "Space Beyond All Knowing", one can confidently rate this realm as Low 1-C.

The first seems to be an association rather than a fact. For the second, I don't see clear how "our native reality" is but a dream to the denizens of the Space Beyond All Knowing.