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Homestuck god tiers downgrade

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No, she ate him without any effort (gaining his powers and more in the process), she also stated that even in his best day, he would be no match for her.
 
YuriAkuto said:
No, she ate him without any effort (gaining his powers and more in the process), she also stated that even in his best day, he would be no match for her.
Click to expand...
Can I see scans for thr last part?
 
I'd say at least Low 1-C for Ultimate Selves. They don't transcend Paradox Space, merely encompass all of someone's alternate selves regardless of its normal boundaries.
 
I think that "transcend the boundaries of Paradox Space" and basically being a form of Platonic Ideal is a pretty good proof of them transcending it, considering that there's more than just being a composite of yourself.
 
"everything that ever happens to every version of you is an important part of your ultimate self... like a superceding bodyless and timeless persona that crosses the boundaries of paradox space and unlike god tiers or bubble ghosts or whatever, it really IS immortal"
It only crosses the boundaries within, as in, it reaches every one of your alternate selves across Paradox Space. I know it's more than being a composite of yourself, but it doesn't transcend anything infinitely.
 
I agree with "at least Low 1-C" then. However I'm still not sure if Barack Obama should scale or just has his weird ascencion power scale to them.
 
Obama should be at least Low 1-C.
 
Alright, I can apply these changes once the profiles are unlocked (John Egbert and Caliborn)

Godhead Pickle Inspector will get deleted, and Pickle Inspector will get a GPI key
 
YuriAkuto said:
No, she ate him without any effort (gaining his powers and more in the process), she also stated that even in his best day, he would be no match for her.
Click to expand...
Overall topic seemed interesting, so I figured I'd pop in, for a moment.

I think it would be more accurate to say this her power is not on an entirely different playing field, but it's clear that Calliope is stronger. At least, it's clear at this point in time.

Basically everything has been stacked against English, by this point. His role in canon is over, and he had reached the point where he was destined to die. After all, due to his self-assured time loop, his ascension and death sort of exist side-by-side. He's screwed here, no matter what. You could take Alt Calliope's word as law even assuming a hypothetical fight in which English was unharmed and had access to the green sun, but I'm quite certain the destruction of the green sun and stripping of his "invulnerability" were necessary for this confrontation to even occur.

On top of this, immediately before Alt Callie kills him and consumes his body to grow stronger, English was cut numerous times and then impaled by Caledfwlch (which is described as "poison to English"), and then thrown into the black hole which is the very embodiment of his sister. Dude was not in good condition at all, and was up against someone who likely understood the extent of her aspect and powers far better.

However, Alt Callie needed his power to escape the black hole. She even said it "can be escaped only through the supreme unification with my other half". English's power was crucial for such an endeavor to even be possible in the first place, even if it was less than her own. She basically predominated over him again, but this time it was a fully realized Muse of Space predominating over a fully realized Lord of Time, meaning she had much more to gain from it than either did when they offed much weaker versions of each other to initially gain autonomy. It was the cumulation of their selves that allowed her to achieve, as the recap puts it, "heights of power heretofore unmatched".

This is just a really drawn out way of me saying that I'm pretty sure characters like Lord English, Alternate Calliope, and Ultimate Dirk are all on a similar scale of strength. Some may be notably above others, but none are so strong that the power of the others becomes entirely irrelevant. If Dirk was giving Callie trouble prior, but her consumption of LE's essence granted her "unmatched" power in comparison and allowed her to perform a task that was impossible otherwise, he still somewhat scales, since tiers this high up are judged almost entirely by the "level" of existence a character is able to destroy/heavily affect. This only really becomes relevant if Alternate Calliope or Ultimate Dirk do some absolutely crazy bullshit well beyond the scale of the main comic (and do so without some kind of ludicrous boost, beforehand), but I figured I'd say it.

Homestuck tends to get me verbose, I guess.

Edit: Speaking of Calliope, normal Calliope and god tier Calliope should not share a page. They are quite literally two drastically different people with different histories, who now only share the most superficial resemblance

Lord English can probably stay on Caliborn's page, but it really should be pointed out somewhere that he isn't just Caliborn, but an unholy fusion between the souls of Caliborn, Arquiusprite (who is already a fusion of Lil Hal and Equius), and Gamzee. Gamzee even makes direct reference to this when he mentions that the mirthful messiahs were both always him, since Doc Scratch and Lord English both contained Gamzee's soul. He may count as his own distinct entity at this point, but it doesn't matter as much as the Alt Calliope and normal Calliope split.
 
Also, you guys planning to make keys/new pages for epilogue/Homestuck^2 stuff, or what? Even the actual MSPA wiki has done this, due to the whole weird, vague nature of all the "post-canon" jargon. Seems like it would be ideal, but I'm honestly not too invested in the specifics, at this point.
 
Promestein said:
Obama should be at least Low 1-C.
Click to expand...
As much as I just kind of want to meme this because of how glorious it is without any context, I guess I should point out that due to the way the story's currently unfolding, we don't even know if "Obama" was real, or just some bullshit Ultimate Dirk was throwing in to get Dave to achieve his Ultimate Self.

This sort of thing is kind of hard to tell at this point, since the story isn't even remotely done and much of Dirk's plan, powers, and motives are still vague.
 
It's more something special to Cherubs I think, otherwise it would'nt have unlocked new powers. Also Calliope clearly said that the threat Ultimate!Dirk is will affect way more than Lord.

We already consider LE as the fusion, most of his abilities come from his components. I don't really think we need a "post/dubiously canon" key except for characters with great change (like being an Ultimate Self). Also tbh, I don't understand the problem with the in-verse explanation of canon.

Given Skaianet stuff, the fact that Dirk has a picture of Obama, and him showing hope powers, I don't think consediring as not real is anything more than a theory.
 
Gaining something from overwhelming your other half is a cherub thing, yes. That is part of the idea behind their predominating. But this does not mean that she got this power boost just because it was her brother. Calliope specifically states that this change is a result of supreme unification with her other half, but that other half is Lord English; this is clearly not just due to the fact that he's Caliborn. She's already predominated over and absorbed the essence of her own timeline's Caliborn, as she mentions earlier that she feasted on his soul. The strength boost is a direct result of her absorbtion of Lord English specifically. Their combined powers were still necessary to escape the black hole.

"Also Calliope clearly said that the threat Ultimate!Dirk is will affect way more than Lord."

Yes, because Dirk is a genius who is rapidly growing more accustomed to his newfound narrative-altering powers, and Caliborn is an idiot manchild who took the fast track to godhood. Caliborn did at one point have some level of control over the narrative, around the time GAME OVER was a thing, for example. He just didn't do much with it, because his ultimate goal was always just to blow stuff up and kill people after putting them through convoluted games. It's not merely power that makes Dirk more dangerous, but the types of machinations he's cooking up. Hussie, who previously controlled the narrative, was also gunned down by Lord English, probably since he often portrayed himself as somewhat incompetent and not terrifyingly driven in the same way as someone like Dirk.

"We already consider LE as the fusion, most of his abilities come from his components."

I'm referring to the fact that Caliborn's page does not seem to mention this, despite the fact it's relatively important.

"I don't really think we need a "post/dubiously canon" key except for characters with great change (like being an Ultimate Self)."

That is what I mean, yes. I doubt most characters will need one due to being roughly unchanged or not possessing feats that alter their statistics. But if they do, they should have such keys.

"Also tbh, I don't understand the problem with the in-verse explanation of canon."

I'm not talking about "canon" as an actual, in-universe term. I'm talking about Hussie's entire diatribe on the nature of canon, his own talk of his diminishing importance as sole author, the fact that the epilogues are deliberately called "tales of dubious authenticity" and presented as fanfiction, and that the response to the question of whether this is canon or not is "does it really matter?". It's interesting from a meta standpoint, but it's also part of why the MSPA wiki is using "dubiously canon"; there is intentionally no direct answer.

Edit: Oops forgot the Obama thing. I more meant that, in that specific instance, the interaction with the hologram may have been facilitated by Dirk. Obama himself was clearly real.
 
  • Caliborn and John: Down to Low Complex Multiverse level (5-6D)
  • Ultimate Selves: Low Complex Multiverse level (5-6D)
 
GojiBoyForever said:
So are you arguing Lord English would be on a similar level as Dirk and Alt Calli?
Click to expand...
Just that, at the very least, he occupies the same level of existence and functions on the same general scale, yes. Which is really all that matters for his tier, when talking about Low Complex Multiverse level stuff.
 
Someone needs to unlock John and Caliborn's profiles.

GPI needs to be nerfed

I did stuff in my sandboxes, so once unlocked, and if I'm still online, I can apply this
 
Thanks. What else is left to do in this thread?
 
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