Homelander (The Boys TV Series): Martial Arts (sort of)

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Fighting skills for Homelander have been refused twice (https://vsbattles.com/threads/homelander-and-the-deep-the-boys-tv-show-additions.158495/, https://vsbattles.com/threads/most-...der-skills-upgrade-and-possibly-stats.161408/) and here is a third attempt with more elaborate arguments:

- Fought Butcher () who has H2H skill thanks to his past as a member of the SAS and an official statement that says he is an expert in hand-to-hand combat.

- Fought Soldier Boy (same video as above) who has H2H skill thanks to his military past (He didn't fight in WW2 but in black ops during the 60s and 70s and he's skilled with guns and knives throwing, so he clearly learned military skills) and his fight against Butcher.

- Fought Soldier Boy and Butcher simultaneously (same video as above)

- Fought Queen Maeve () who has H2H skill because she was one of the best students of the Godolkin University's School of Crimefighting (where students learn to fight) and because we saw her training during S1.

To support these arguments and explain why Homelander knows how to fight, in a Homelander's flashback during the episode 8 of The Boys Diabolical (this episode is one of the three episodes of The Boys Diabolical considered canon to the main show by Eric Kripke), we see him as a child fighting against a adult Supes stronger than him (). This perhaps suggests that Vought made Kid Homelander fight several times against other Supes to test his strength, and gradually he learned how to fight.

The main counter-argument that has been used against this addition is that "Homelander is stronger than these three characters, so he does not need to be a skilled fighter to stand up to them". Well, yes, Homelander is undoubtedly stronger than these three characters, but the AP gap is not significant (Soldier Boy is even described as near as strong as Homelander). If Homelander was unskilled, Butcher, Soldier Boy and Maeve would have defeated him.

Agree: @FuriousFieryFist, @Emirp sumitpo, @Just_Butchering, @SheevShezarrine, @Emerald, @GraveDigger84, @Pyro9278, @ByArrow
Disagree: @Propellus, @Cropfist, @EldemadeDityjon

 

[GraveDigger84]

Not against it, waiting for more discussion

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

Yeah, it's pretty clear that Homelander has at least some level of skill in hand to hand combat. Handwaving that away as due to his superior strength is disingenuous as it was very clear in season 3 that Maeve, Butcher, and especially Soldier Boy are all somewhat relative to Homelander. Never is he shown being so far above the other god tiers that it's incomparable, hell there was a whole scene showing Butcher and Homelanders heat vision as equal before they started going hand to hand. Heavy agree.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I agree with this. The whole "Homelander is stronger than them" is terrible as we clearly see that the power gap is not very significant.

 

[Just_Butchering]

I could see him as a "decent/good brawler", but he ain't getting martial arts. He is nowhere near enough to fully be on par with these characters (even if we ignore the fact that for a SAS Butcher is kinda sluggish in his fighting style, Homelander throws punches and kicks in a very inexperienced manner. Better than your average joe, but nothing spectacular)

 

[DaReaperMan]

I could see him as a "decent/good brawler", but he ain't getting martial arts. He is nowhere near enough to fully be on par with these characters (even if we ignore the fact that for a SAS Butcher is kinda sluggish in his fighting style, Homelander throws punches and kicks in a very inexperienced manner. Better than your average joe, but nothing spectacular)

Gonna point out that I doubt these actors actually got H2H training as they would from SAS, so how sluggish they seem probably isn't a good argument

 

[Just_Butchering]

Gonna point out that I doubt these actors actually got H2H training as they would from SAS, so how sluggish they seem probably isn't a good arguments

Uh, yeah I know lol

What I meant was: while of course Butcher doesn't look as skilled as real life SAS, he is meant to be as skilled. However, regardless of the show's limitations, Homelander is very obvious played to fight just-above-average.

All the characters that fought Homelander, even with limitations, has shown way better skill than Homelander. That's why I don't think he should full scale to them, but at least note he has to be above average in skill. (I'll rewatch the fights, because I think he even had some decent dodges and blocks)

 

[Propellus]

I still disagree.

Because then again, being able to fight those with higher skill due to power alone does not simply give you Martial Arts alone, except it's just combat experience. And it all goes to show how lazy he is within the fight scenes with him as it's just all average level punches with no other substance whatsoever. And him fighting other supes doesn't grant him skill in combat, but more experience and it's mainly just more focused on how to use his own powers in general

 

[Cropfist]

I disagree as well, he has no form and was held off by Maeve for so long precisely due to his lack of skill.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

I still disagree.

Because then again, being able to fight those with higher skill due to power alone does not simply give you Martial Arts alone, except it's just combat experience. And it all goes to show how lazy he is within the fight scenes with him as it's just all average level punches with no other substance whatsoever. And him fighting other supes doesn't grant him skill in combat, but more experience and it's mainly just more focused on how to use his own powers in general

Except it's not due to power alone. You can see in his fight with Soldier Boy and Butcher that he actively ducks and dodges punches from relative fighters. Him throwing normal looking attacks doesn't disqualify him from having martial arts as brawling in it of itself is a combat skill, Broly is a good example of this.

I disagree as well, he has no form and was held off by Maeve for so long precisely due to his lack of skill.

Homelander vs Maeve went that way because Homelander wasn't even taking Maeve seriously for the first half of the fight, even turning his back to her and trying to ignore her. Once they do start fighting you actively see Homelander duck, dodge, block and retaliate against Maeve multiple times. Not saying Maeves not the more skilled fighter but Homelander held his own in hand to hand during that fight.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I could see him as a "decent/good brawler", but he ain't getting martial arts.

You don't need to have had military training or trained with a martial arts master to have Martial Arts ability. You just need to have combat skills.

He is nowhere near enough to fully be on par with these characters

If that were the case he would have been defeated. The only advantage he had against them was his strength.

Because then again, being able to fight those with higher skill due to power alone does not simply give you Martial Arts alone

Once again, being stronger and as fast doesn't allow you to beat skilled fighters as fast and almost as strong as you.

except it's just combat experience.

And him fighting other supes doesn't grant him skill in combat, but more experience

So he has combat experience but is unskilled in it???

And it all goes to show how lazy he is within the fight scenes with him as it's just all average level punches with no other substance whatsoever.

Because Antony Starr is not a boxer, just like Karl Urban is not a former SAS

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I can get behind this, I'd preferably add it to his profile as "Skilled/Adept Brawler" since he doesn't have formal training the way Butcher or Soldier does.

 

[Propellus]

Except it's not due to power alone. You can see in his fight with Soldier Boy and Butcher that he actively ducks and dodges punches from relative fighters. Him throwing normal looking attacks doesn't disqualify him from having martial arts as brawling in it of itself is a combat skill, Broly is a good example of this.

Except it does, considering how Homelander is known to be lazy when it comes to combat in general. Even then it doesn't imply he's capable of crafting a reasonable fighting position. And whataboutism really isn't helping your case either.

Homelander vs Maeve went that way because Homelander wasn't even taking Maeve seriously for the first half of the fight, even turning his back to her and trying to ignore her. Once they do start fighting you actively see Homelander duck, dodge, block and retaliate against Maeve multiple times. Not saying Maeves not the more skilled fighter but Homelander held his own in hand to hand during that fight.

Him against Maeve just makes it even worse for his apparent "skill" in combat, considering how Maeve completely overwhelmed him in battle which took him to use some of his strength to put her eye out.

Once again, being stronger and as fast doesn't allow you to beat skilled fighters as fast and almost as strong as you.

Except it actually does, and his fight against Maeve was proof that goes against this.

So he has combat experience but is unskilled in it???

He doesn't really show any consistent reasonable form of combat skill.

Because Antony Starr is not a boxer, just like Karl Urban is not a former SAS

Okay? This means what exactly? I don't really see how that matters considering you don't even need to be a trained brawler in real life to go along with the plot's narrative of a character's fighting style.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Except it actually does, and his fight against Maeve was proof that goes against this.

Except there is no evidence of that. No statement says that Homelander only used his strength and no skill during his fights. He fought skilled characters as fast and nearly as strong as him, so he has fighting skills, it's not possible otherwise for him otherwise he would have been defeated. He even fought Soldier Boy and Butcher simultaneously.

He doesn't really show any consistent reasonable form of combat skill.

He fought skilled characters almost as powerful as him, and if you have combat experience you necessarily have combat skill.

Okay? This means what exactly?

You said Homelander is unskilled because he just used average level punches. Antony Starr is not a boxer so obviously he is not going to fight as well as a real fighter.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Regarding Soldier Boy vs. Homelander in their H2H fight, we clearly see Soldier Boy overpowering Homelander. Homelander even admits that Soldier Boy had him on the ropes for a minute. This is just my interpretation, but it’s most likely because of the previous blast Soldier Boy used that he became weaker later on, allowing Homelander to gain the upper hand. It doesn’t make sense for Homelander to suddenly overpower Soldier Boy with pure strength when Soldier Boy was doing well earlier in the fight. All Homelander did was Choke him after he gained upper hand in strength.

As for Maeve, I’m not sure. The fight shows Maeve performing better in H2H against Homelander. I don’t really see Homelander displaying any noteworthy skills there.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Regarding Soldier Boy vs. Homelander in their H2H fight, we clearly see Soldier Boy overpowering Homelander

Soldier Boy never overpowered Homelander except at the end with the help of Butcher and Hughie, but even then Homelander showed himself to be physically stronger than the three by freeing himself thanks to his rage.

Homelander even admits that Soldier Boy had him on the ropes for a minute.

Because Soldier Boy is nearly as strong than Homelander.

This is just my interpretation, but it’s most likely because of the previous blast Soldier Boy used that he became weaker later on, allowing Homelander to gain the upper hand.

Yeah no, there's no evidence of that. Homelander overpowered Soldier Boy because he is stronger, not because Soldier Boy was weakened.

It doesn’t make sense for Homelander to suddenly overpower Soldier Boy with pure strength when Soldier Boy was doing well earlier in the fight. All Homelander did was Choke him after he gained upper hand in strength.

Soldier Boy held his own against Homelander because he is nearly as strong than him (this is stated twice in the show) and Homelander overpowered Soldier Boy because he is stronger than him (this is stated three times in the show). It's that simple.

As for Maeve, I’m not sure. The fight shows Maeve performing better in H2H against Homelander. I don’t really see Homelander displaying any noteworthy skills there.

Whether you are less skilled or not, held your own against a skilled fighter nearly as powerful than you is a noteworthy skill.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Soldier Boy did not overpower Homelander except at the end with the help of Butcher and Hughie, but even then Homelander showed himself to be physically stronger than the three by freeing himself thanks to his rage.

Because Soldier Boy is nearly as strong than Homelander.

Yeah no, there's no evidence of that. Homelander overpowered Soldier Boy because he is stronger, not because Soldier Boy was weakened.

Why don't you screenshot and post some scans where Soldier Boy gets overpowered by Homelander's skills instead of just making up headcanons? The video you linked even shows Soldier Boy overpowering Homelander to some extent until Homelander catches him and starts choking him.

Soldier Boy held his own against Homelander because he is nearly as strong than him (this is stated twice in the show) and Homelander overpowered Soldier Boy because he is stronger than him (this is stated three times in the show). It's that simple.

So you concede it was done by strength..

Whether you are less skilled or not, held your own against a skilled fighter nearly as powerful than you is a noteworthy skill.

He didn't hold his own against Maeve with any of his skills. We literally see him targeting her eyes and pushing her back and forth. Nothing noteworthy in terms of skill there.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Why don't you screenshot and post some scans where Soldier Boy gets overpowered by Homelander's skills instead of just making up headcanons?

I never said that Homelander overpowered Soldier Boy, Butcher and Maeve via skill, but that he has enough skill to hold his own against them. You don't need to be as skilled or more skilled than your opponent to be skilled yourself.

The video you linked even shows Soldier Boy overpowering Homelander to some extent until Homelander catches him and starts choking him.

We see him hitting Homelander yes, but I don't see how that prevents Homelander from being skilled and stronger.

So you concede it was done by strength..

Yes, but that doesn't mean he's not a skilled fighter, otherwise he would have been defeated.

He didn't hold his own against Maeve with any of his skills.

Yes, otherwise it would have already been defeated.

We literally see him targeting her eyes and pushing her back and forth. Nothing noteworthy in terms of skill there.

Overpowering someone physically doesn't mean you don't know how to fight.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I never said that Homelander overpowered Soldier Boy, Butcher and Maeve via skill, but that he has enough skill to hold his own against them. You don't need to be as skilled or more skilled than your opponent to be skilled yourself.

We see him hitting Homelander yes, but I don't see how that prevents Homelander from being skilled and stronger.

Yes, but that doesn't mean he's not a skilled fighter, otherwise he would have been defeated.

Yes, otherwise it would have already been defeated.

Overpowering someone physically doesn't mean you don't know how to fight.

• For once I never said anything about SB being stronger than Homelander. I believe both are on same level. I clearly gave my interpretation on how SB gave Homelander run for his money in the beginning later onwards Homelander suddenly got upper hand and started Choking him. It's most likely SB gotten weaker and couldn't keep up his pace with Homelander. If you disagree with this interpretation. Then agree to disagree.
• Having skills alone wouldn't make you defeat your opponents when both has same durability and power and runs away from the battlefield (Like Homelander did). Your arguments about Homelander didn't got defeated doesn't make sense when there was no outcome of skills there. SB was getting choked so even if Homelander would have killed SB that wouldn't have been results of his H2H skills instead it would be his raw power.
• Homelander is stronger than. Mauve. She dominated him in H2H. He Overpowered her through strength. Which even video clearly shows

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

For once I never said anything about SB being stronger than Homelander. I believe both are on same level. I clearly gave my interpretation on how SB gave Homelander run for his money in the beginning later onwards Homelander suddenly got upper hand and started Choking him. It's most likely SB gotten weaker and couldn't keep up his pace with Homelander. If you disagree with this interpretation. Then agree to disagree.

It's your interpretation yes, but not that of the show. It is confirmed three times in the show that Homelander is stronger (even Antony Starr and Jensen Ackles said this in interviews) than Soldier Boy and there is no evidence that the latter was weakened during Herogasm. Anyway, that's not the topic of the thread.

Having skills alone wouldn't make you defeat your opponents when both has same durability and power and runs away from the battlefield (Like Homelander did). Your arguments about any Homelander didn't got defeated doesn't make sense when there was no outcome of skills there. SB was getting choked so even if Homelander would have killed SB that wouldn't have been results of his H2H skills instead it would be his raw power.

Being more skilled allows you to beat someone unskilled. If Homelander wasn't he would have had no way to hold his own against skilled fighters, because just being stronger won't help you win (Otherwise the powerlifters and bodybuilders could defeat the boxers). Soldier boy would have defeated Homelander before being overpowered if Homelander was unskilled.

Homelander is stronger than. Mauve. She dominated him in H2H. He Overpowered her through strength. Which even video clearly shows

The video shows Homelander holding his own against Maeve by blocking her punches and punching her in return. Again, if Homelander was unskilled Maeve would have defeated him before losing his eye, especially because Homelander was holding back at the start of the fight.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's your interpretation yes, but not that of the show. It is confirmed three times in the show that Homelander is stronger (even Antony Starr and Jensen Ackles said this in interviews) than Soldier Boy and there is no evidence that the latter was weakened during Herogasm. Anyway, that's not the topic of the thread.

Stronger can mean many things unless it's specifically stated physically. Homelander has more stuff in his arsenal

Being more skilled allows you to beat someone unskilled.

Not instantly. LMAO. You are acting like Skilled fighters should defeat their opponents with one punch or something

If Homelander wasn't he would have had no way to hold his own against skilled fighters, because just being stronger won't help you win (Otherwise the powerlifters and bodybuilders could defeat the boxers). Soldier boy would have defeated Homelander before being overpowered if Homelander was unskilled.

I already addressed this. Homelander Overpowered SB through raw power. Your video even shows that.

The video shows Homelander holding his own against Maeve by blocking her punches and punching her. Again if Homelander was unskilled Maeve would have defeated him before losing his eye, especially since Homelander was holding back at the start of the fight.

Even after him getting serious later onwards when Maeve had one eye she still was doing better job.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Stronger can mean many things unless it's specifically stated physically. Homelander has more stuff in his arsenal

It's about physical strength yes, not Homelander's other abilities. The proof is that Homelander overpowered Soldier Boy just with his physical strength, not his flight or his lasers. Edgar also said that they replaced Soldier Boy with Homelander because the latter is "stronger, and he can fly".

Not instantly. LMAO. You are acting like Skilled fighters should defeat their opponents with one punch or something

I wrote "allows you", not "instantly".

I already addressed this. Homelander Overpowered SB through raw power. Your video even shows that.

I don't even say that in my comment (read my comments carefully before responding) and I've already said it, I never said that Homelander overpowered Soldier Boy, Butcher and Maeve via skill, that's not my argument.

Even after him getting serious later onwards when Maeve had one eye she still was doing better job.

Again, being less skilled than your opponent does not mean that you are not skilled yourself, this argument is not good at all.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's about physical strength yes, not Homelander's other abilities. The proof is that Homelander overpowered Soldier Boy just with his physical strength, not his flight or his lasers. Edgar also said that they replaced Soldier Boy with Homelander because the latter is "stronger, and he can fly".

Spoiler

You can ignore this if you think this is pointless to the thread.

I already addressed this regarding the possibility of SB getting weaker due to the blast. It was clearly mentioned that SB gors blank after the blast, and Butcher was physically matching Homelander. SB was beating down Butcher later episode. LMAO.

Homelander got away from the three of them (with Hughie obviously not being on their level). SB was charging up his blast, so he definitely shouldn't have been able to hold Homelander down at full power. Butcher was holding one side, and Homelander used the fight to get away.

Rage amped Homelander isn't on different tier than Butcher and SB. Unless you have different examples for him being in different tiers than them by feats she showaced.

The whole point is scaling is circular there are interpretation and arguments can be made for each are being on same level physically. Saying Antony Starr and Jensen Ackles said this in interviews doesn't make Homelander is physically stronger than others. It can be just his full set of Arsenal giving him an edge on others.

I wrote "allows you", not "instantly".

If you are not arguing for a instant win then it's pointless argument. I already addressed the part where I clearly explained fight didn't last long enough to see the outcome.

I don't even say that in my comment (read my comments carefully before responding) and I've already said it, I never said that Homelander overpowered Soldier Boy, Butcher and Maeve via skill, that's not my argument.

Again, being less skilled than your opponent does not mean that you are not skilled yourself, this argument is not good at all.

Then this is your burden to show the feats for Homelander being skilled. Your all arguments are dependent on your own beliefs that "he held his own agaisnt skilled fighters so he should be skilled."

This is just circular reasoning fallacy If I'm correct

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

A thread like this has already been made and the admins sent this thread to hell. If this thread is accepted, it will be very hypocritical.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I already addressed this regarding the possibility of SB getting weaker due to the blast. It was clearly mentioned that SB gors blank after the blast

Yeah but there's no proof of that, Soldier Boy wasn't weakened, that's just your theory.

and Butcher was physically matching Homelander. SB was beating down Butcher later episode. LMAO.

Butcher was overpowered by Homelander despite Soldier Boy's help and it was Hughie who saved him. LMAO

Rage amped Homelander isn't on different tier than Butcher and SB

I never said otherwise.

Saying Antony Starr and Jensen Ackles said this in interviews doesn't make Homelander is physically stronger than others.

It is. They are reliable because they talk about the characters they play. They know them better than us.

It can be just his full set of Arsenal giving him an edge on others.

Homelander is physically stronger than all the characters in the show, this is the whole point of the character and it is mentioned several times in the show and by the showrunner and the actors (Antony Starr has said several times that Homelander is the strongest physically in the show). Homelander is also physically stronger than Soldier Boy because three statements say so (Edgar saying Homelander is stronger, Butcher saying Soldier Boy is nearly as strong as Homelander, and Homelander saying the same thing.
This is the last time I respond to this topic. If you still want to talk about it, do it in The Boys discussion thread.

 

[Just_Butchering]

I think at least it's worth nothing that his skills are above average. Even with an upper hand in strength, he still needs at least a small degree of skill and combat coordination to put up a fight against this fighters. Besides, Hughie gets "minor martial arts" for flimsy training, I think "Adept Fighter" in his profile wouldn't hurt, but also clarify he is only above average and not actually fully trained

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I think at least it's worth nothing that his skills are above average. Even with an upper hand in strength, he still needs at least a small degree of skill and combat coordination to put up a fight against this fighters. Besides, Hughie gets "minor martial arts" for flimsy training, I think "Adept Fighter" in his profile wouldn't hurt, but also clarify he is only above average and not actually fully trained

MCU Kingpin https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kingpin_(Marvel_Cinematic_Universe) has the same thing in his page because he fought skilled fighters (Daredevil, Punisher):

"Expert Brawler (Fisk, despite having no formal combat training, is a very formidable opponent due to his size and pure muscle)"

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

MCU Kingpin https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kingpin_(Marvel_Cinematic_Universe) has the same thing in his page because he fought skilled fighters (Daredevil, Punisher):

"Expert Brawler (Fisk, despite having no formal combat training, is a very formidable opponent due to his size and pure muscle)"

Superman DCEU also

 

[Emerald]

I agree, also if you look in the fight against Maeve, Homelander also blocks a blow like how a boxer would

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Just_Butchering]

I agree, also if you look in the fight against Maeve, Homelander also blocks a blow like how a boxer would

0:09 - 0:18 - 0:57
All those blocks look pretty decent IMO

I insist that Homelander shouldn't get much more than "Adept Brawler/Combatant", but ignoring that the guy has above average fighting skill is a crime

 

[GraveDigger84]

Agreed FRA

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Pyro9278]

As strange as it may seem, Homelander should have martial arts in his profile. Besides all the reasons given earlier, Homelander shows a minimal ability to defend himself against those who can harm him, and it is not necessarily due to an extremely high power difference. If that were the case, I believe Homelander would have done more than just crush Queen Maeve's eye in season 3. In addition to defending himself well in hand-to-hand combat, his tactics usually involve this same approach, such as trapping people and applying his brute strength on them, commonly using his laser vision, which is quite typical for him

 

[ByArrow]

I agree that Homelander is skilled in hand-to-hand combat for the reasons given earlier.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Pyro9278]

Is there no vote count here?

 

[Just_Butchering]

Is there no vote count here?

Considering that what mostly matters is staff approval (and at least 2-3 members at that) I think there's much reason for a vote count.