Help needed deciding which FF calc to use

[PrinceofPein]

This is a calc to decide where the High tiers scale

Several calc of it:

Min: Powertoscale is for a small version of the moon, and uses it small size for the distance. Apparently its wrong but it seems to be the same as many other calcs, idk, never really checked on it.

Mitch: General moon to earth KE calc, with it being same size and mass.

Pr3digy: Accounts for the shape, size and distance for the moon feat, similar to mine. And was accepted by the same person who found issue in mine.

Arc7Kuroi: The Earth is being thrown to the moon, but we see action lines and being ablaze heading to earth.


Please if you can go through the 4 and help us with which is better

 

[Confluctor]

The last two seems better than the first two. Should preferably focus on those and figure something out

 

[Quangotjokes]

I have a problem with arcs calc, it assumes the earth is what's moving when its the moon that's actually moving.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I have a problem with arcs calc, it assumes the earth is what's moving when its the moon that's actually moving.

Well not exactly faerie increased the moons mass so much that it starts falling but in reality increase in the moon mass will mean it starts attracting the earth

 

[Quangotjokes]

Well not exactly faerie increased the moons mass so much that it starts falling but in reality increase in the moon mass will mean it starts attracting the earth

I get that reasoning, but why would kicking it stop the earth?

 

[Dalesean027]

I get that reasoning, but why would kicking it stop the earth?

He's still counteracting the pulling force from the moon in that sense and is pushing it away

 

[Quangotjokes]

He's still counteracting the pulling force from the moon in that sense and is pushing it away

He didn't push away the moon, he just stopped it with a kick.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Think of attractive gravity like a spring pulling two objects together, if nothing stops the inward pull they’ll keeping getting as close as the spring allows (collision in this case). However, if someone were to apply a push to the inside to counteract the pull, the pull could be halted momentarily. As for why it didn’t continue to pull, orbits have sweet spots called stable orbits (drastic oversimplification but you get the point and this is fiction) where they won’t fall into each other, so Shinra would’ve kicked the system into a stable orbit.

 

[Quangotjokes]

He didn't kick it back into orbit though lol he stopped it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

He didn't kick it back into orbit though lol he stopped it.

No you fail to understand my original post. The new stable orbit isn’t the same as the old one because the system changed, the moons mass altered. So, yes he did kick it such that the system was in a stable orbit, proof of this is the fact the moon stopped falling. It’s not up for debate, it’s how it is.

 

[Quangotjokes]

No you fail to understand my original post. The new stable orbit isn’t the same as the old one because the system changed, the moons mass altered. So, yes he did kick it such that the system was in a stable orbit, proof of this is the fact the moon stopped falling. It’s not up for debate, it’s how it is.

What's up for debate is what was moving. I'm also pretty sure the calc breaks the new KE rules as well.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Why was this made? Ff revisions are being planned atm

 

[Dalesean027]

Why was this made? Ff revisions are being planned atm

It's for those revisions to decide what's the best calc to be used for this specific feat as there are multiple different ones and we know revisions are being planned we're the ones working on them lol

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Discussion should be restricted to those who have asked permission from CGM, the creators of the calcs, and CGM themselves tbh.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Discussion should be restricted to those who have asked permission from CGM, the creators of the calcs, and CGM themselves tbh.

How can I do that?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

How can I do that?

You cant it’d be on staff to moderate stuff like that

 

[Damage3245]

I'll respond to this tomorrow. Just noticed it now.

 

[Slacjow]

Uh, Faerie's ability moved the Moon.
You are making quite an assumption saying that he moved the Earth itself when the manga does nothing to support that claim. While there are more statements about the moon getting close. You also have to consider that if Faerie moved the Earth instead of the Moon, stopping it would accomplish absolutely nothing.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Uh, Faerie's ability moved the Moon.
You are making quite an assumption saying that he moved the Earth itself when the manga does nothing to support that claim. While there are more statements about the moon getting close. You also have to consider that if Faerie moved the Earth instead of the Moon, stopping it would accomplish absolutely nothing.

Faerie ability is to increase the mass of something hence the gravity of it
If faerie deacresed the moon’s mass then yes the moon will start falling but he increased the moon’s mass which will mean an increase in the moon’s gravitational pull. So if we are really following the science behind mass and gravity the moon did the pulling not the other way around

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think that the Moon itself can be having way, way greater mass than the Earth because all of the people and objects on the Earth's surface would be lifted up towards the Moon.

 

[Dalesean027]

I don't think that the Moon itself can be having way, way greater mass than the Earth because all of the people and objects on the Earth's surface would be lifted up towards the Moon.

That's exactly what happened tho

 

[Damage3245]

That's exactly what happened tho

It's a bit hard to tell but that looks to me more like the air pressure is smashing stuff and blowing it away, not lifting it up into the sky with gravity.

Look at that tree or those windows in the first page to see what I mean.

 

[Slacjow]

Faerie ability is to increase the mass of something hence the gravity of it
If faerie deacresed the moon’s mass then yes the moon will start falling but he increased the moon’s mass which will mean an increase in the moon’s gravitational pull. So if we are really following the science behind mass and gravity the moon did the pulling not the other way around

We follow the science when it doesn't contradict what actually happened in the manga, and when it doesn't basically make stuff up.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I don't think that the Moon itself can be having way, way greater mass than the Earth because all of the people and objects on the Earth's surface would be lifted up towards the Moon.

If the mass of the moon is increased by two or three times will it start falling?

 

[Quangotjokes]

That's exactly what happened tho

I mean even in the scan he says "moonfall"

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't think that the Moon itself can be having way, way greater mass than the Earth because all of the people and objects on the Earth's surface would be lifted up towards the Moon.

Ehhhhhhhh I think this is a bit disingenuous to say when the author is known for getting science "half-correct", this is the same author that thinks a bowling ball with the same mass as Earth would float in Earth's atmosphere. I don't think you can get super nit picky with scientific physical consequences of Ohkubo's world and accurately represent what is going on. Which is why in my calc blog focuses more on how Ohkubo describes the mechanics of the verse rather than too heavily on irl consequences outside the calc math itself.

Edit: Also everyone saying "but it looks like the moon is moving" needs to read the latter half of my calc blog where I address reference frames and perspective.

 

[Blahblah9755]

If the mass of the moon is increased by two or three times will it start falling?

Yes. The reason the moon doesn’t fall is due to it being in a precise stable orbit with the Earth. If its mass increased, the gravitational centripetal force changes, making that orbit unstable, so the Earth and moon would both fall towards some point between the two.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If its mass increased, the gravitational centripetal force changes, making that orbit unstable, so the Earth and moon would both fall towards some point between the two.

Not really, if you treat the problem as the moon orbiting earth (which is fair), the moon's mass cancels out of the sum of forces in a stable orbit, leaving the position of the moon relative to earth dependent only on its orbital velocity and mass of earth.

Again, I think the longer we delve into the physical intricacies of what this would amount to in real life, the more we will stray from what Ohkubo was trying to portray. He's consistently not entirely correct when he brings real life science into Fire Force, thus I think we should focus on how the verse treats the abilities more than how real life would when talking about physical reprecussions outside the calc math.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not sure that actually makes the values of the calc accurate if we just decide to ignore the physics at work here.

Plus Faerie did say that he was making the Moon fall, not the Earth rise.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Plus Faerie did say that he was making the Moon fall, not the Earth rise.

This doesn't work as a debunk considering that regardless of what is technically moving, everyone on Earth would perceive it as the Moon falling and not the Earth falling.

I'm not sure that actually makes the values of the calc accurate if we just decide to ignore the physics at work here.

Personally, due to the way Faerie explains his ability, the fact he reaches his hands to the Moon, and the fact that the Moon's mass is what's emphasized, I find my calc fine.

 

[Damage3245]

This doesn't work as a debunk considering that regardless of what is technically moving, everyone on Earth would perceive it as the Moon falling and not the Earth falling.

Even from Faeries's perspective? The other reason why their perception of the Moon falling could be that way is because the Moon could actually falling towards them.

Personally, due to the way Faerie explains his ability, the fact he reaches his hands to the Moon, and the fact that the Moon's mass is what's emphasized, I find my calc fine.

Wouldn't the Moon's mass be relatively huge to Maki regardless?

 

[Dalesean027]

Wouldn't the Moon's mass be relatively huge to Maki regardless?

Does this matter as she'd never even been in a situation where she's needed to move the moons mass on it's own while it's in a stable orbit around earth let alone counteract it as it is on collision course for earth due to it's mass being increased significantly until it happened so there's no real way to determine how viable she'd be doing that regularly to make it an argument to begin with and that goes for either or

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Even from Faeries's perspective

Yes, since he's on the Earth, he's experiencing everything from the Earth's rest frame.

Wouldn't the Moon's mass be relatively huge to Maki regardless

True, but at the same time, they're drawing attention to the mass of the Moon in the context of a person who pulls objects to other objects by increasing mass. Earth is massive relative to Maki too, but she never comments on it, but when the Moon (that I believe had its mass increased) gets near Maki, she comments on its mass being overwhelming.

 

[Damage3245]

Earth is massive relative to Maki too, but she never comments on it, but when the Moon (that I believe had its mass increased) gets near Maki, she comments on its mass being overwhelming.

Yes, but she wasn't using her powers to divert the Earth's trajectory.

She was trying to stop the Moon's. Since the Moon is what actually has momentum here, then it must be the Moon that was being moved.

Also the fact that, you know, Shinra kicked the Moon to stop it moving instead of kicking the Earth to stop the Earth from moving.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I am much more inclined to believe the moon moved based on everything

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yes, but she wasn't using her powers to divert the Earth's trajectory.

She was trying to stop the Moon's. Since the Moon is what actually has momentum here, then it must be the Moon that was being moved.

Not inherently, it's still a matter of which frame we are working in.

Also the fact that, you know, Shinra kicked the Moon to stop it moving instead of kicking the Earth to stop the Earth from moving.

That doesn't make much physical sense any way we cut this pie tbf.

 

[Quangotjokes]

The moon moving makes rhe most sense in the context of the feat.

 

[Damage3245]

That doesn't make much physical sense any way we cut this pie tbf.

Granted, but it still seems to be what is actually happening here.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I certainly think the feat is rather vague. I remain of the opinion that based on how Faerie said that he increases object's mass to make the lighter one move to the heavier one + him raising his hands to the Moon, indicate he used his powers on the Moon. Additionally, saying that it "looks like the Moon is falling" and "everyone thinks the Moon is falling" don't work as contradictions to my interpretation given that everyone in those scenes exists in the rest frame of Earth (if you look at the Sun move across the sky in real life it looks like it is moving across the sky rather than us orbiting about the Sun). If the majority staff vote disagrees, so be it, but I think we should get a few more CGM in here to comment before establishing a verdict.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I agree with Arc
So addressing the points I’ve seen so far

some people said the basis of the feat is the moon moving, that is wrong
Faerie increases mass of objects the object with the higher mass is going to pull the one with the lower mass
And given his description he increased the moon’s mass not the earth mass so it makes sense to say the moon did the pulling as it is the one with the higher mass
Note- calculating this feat with this method requires heavy assumptions tho, as we have no idea how much the moon’s mass became in relative to heart although we can try using timeframe to judge how fast the pull is to get the mass

Secondly, it was said shinra kicked the moon not the earth, that means it was the moon moving
Well not exactly as he could simply have kicked the stationary object and still obtain the same result


The thing that point to well the moon’s mass lesser than the earth mass is well the major gravity is supposed to change to the moon, I.e. the moon pull on maki is supposed to Be stronger than that of the earth but somehow maki and the rest fell back to earth but that can just be artistic liberty I guess

As a compromise tho we can assume faerie increased the moon mass to be an equal of the earths mass hence they were both meeting at a point