Help needed deciding which FF calc to use

[Damage3245]

Secondly, it was said shinra kicked the moon not the earth, that means it was the moon moving
Well not exactly as he could simply have kicked the stationary object and still obtain the same result

Err.... how exactly?


Also Faerie even says it is the Moon that has come close, that the Moon cannot be pushed back (implying it is the one that moved), and Sho says that Faerie used his power to bring down the Moon and that Shinra stopped the Moon (not the Earth).

All in one page.

I don't care if this is "frame of reference" talk, there is far too much evidence supporting the Moon being the one to have moved, not the Earth.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I agree with Arc
So addressing the points I’ve seen so far

some people said the basis of the feat is the moon moving, that is wrong
Faerie increases mass of objects the object with the higher mass is going to pull the one with the lower mass
And given his description he increased the moon’s mass not the earth mass so it makes sense to say the moon did the pulling as it is the one with the higher mass
Note- calculating this feat with this method requires heavy assumptions tho, as we have no idea how much the moon’s mass became in relative to heart although we can try using timeframe to judge how fast the pull is to get the mass

Secondly, it was said shinra kicked the moon not the earth, that means it was the moon moving
Well not exactly as he could simply have kicked the stationary object and still obtain the same result


The thing that point to well the moon’s mass lesser than the earth mass is well the major gravity is supposed to change to the moon, I.e. the moon pull on maki is supposed to Be stronger than that of the earth but somehow maki and the rest fell back to earth but that can just be artistic liberty I guess

As a compromise tho we can assume faerie increased the moon mass to be an equal of the earths mass hence they were both meeting at a point

compromise sounds good, lines up with most different views in a non-contradictory matter

 

[Cyberblader90]

I agree with Arc
So addressing the points I’ve seen so far

some people said the basis of the feat is the moon moving, that is wrong
Faerie increases mass of objects the object with the higher mass is going to pull the one with the lower mass
And given his description he increased the moon’s mass not the earth mass so it makes sense to say the moon did the pulling as it is the one with the higher mass
Note- calculating this feat with this method requires heavy assumptions tho, as we have no idea how much the moon’s mass became in relative to heart although we can try using timeframe to judge how fast the pull is to get the mass

Secondly, it was said shinra kicked the moon not the earth, that means it was the moon moving
Well not exactly as he could simply have kicked the stationary object and still obtain the same result


The thing that point to well the moon’s mass lesser than the earth mass is well the major gravity is supposed to change to the moon, I.e. the moon pull on maki is supposed to Be stronger than that of the earth but somehow maki and the rest fell back to earth but that can just be artistic liberty I guess

As a compromise tho we can assume faerie increased the moon mass to be an equal of the earths mass hence they were both meeting at a point

Shinra Kicks the Moon Calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

Assuming the moon has earth mass (5.972e24/2) * (67398.0070441^2) = 1.35638792E34 joules, 3.24 yottatons

practically the same value as arc's calc

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That’s cuz you just copied the KE calc I used, earth mass at said velocity

 

[Quangotjokes]

I feel like Pr3digy's calc is best and doesn't really break the new KE rules like some of the other calcs.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Neither mine nor Pr3d’s break KE rules

However, I think Pain brought up a good point, the moon was floating in very low Earth atmosphere. Something Faerie said would occur if you put an Earth mass object in low Earth atmosphere with his ability. So I think treating the Moon as having Earth mass in the feat is valid.

 

[Quangotjokes]

I thought the new rule indicated that destruction had to match KE of the feat???

Unless we assume to moon has large planet dura.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I thought the new rule indicated that destruction had to match KE of the feat???

Unless we assume to moon has large planet dura.

Uhhhhh not to my knowledge it wouldn’t be applicable here, else pretty much every single celestial body moving feat is getting negged. The low-end for the feat is Low 5-B, so every calc here is above moon level.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Uhhhhh not to my knowledge it wouldn’t be applicable here, else pretty much every single celestial body moving feat is getting negged. The low-end for the feat is Low 5-B, so every calc here is above moon level.

Not the moving I was referring to Shinra kicking it with the same force, but I guess there could be some exceptions. I don't really know tbh.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Not the moving I was referring to Shinra kicking it with the same force, but I guess there could be some exceptions. I don't really know tbh.

Seems like textbook AoE fallacy to me. Also, if we wanna appeal to reality the moon and parts of earth would’ve ripped apart during the collision process but that clearly doesn’t happen.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Seems like textbook AoE fallacy to me. Also, if we wanna appeal to reality the moon and parts of earth would’ve ripped apart during the collision process but that clearly doesn’t happen.

Yeah I think the rule needs to be revised or removed tbh.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It’s tricky when dealing with a verse that commonly gets science wrong lol and then trying to apply our irl physics for calculations.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Also question, do we already have the scaling for the rest of the series or are we waiting on the results of this?

 

[Dalesean027]

Also question, do we already have the scaling for the rest of the series or are we waiting on the results of this?

Nah there's feats for other high tiers that need to be calc'd some for example like nataku son and arthur are 6-A from their respective calcs tho so Shinra being stronger fits

 

[PrinceofPein]

Err.... how exactly?

Well that will inflate the results greatly as that would mean he kicked the moon at such speed that it moved back into an orbit where both universal body gravity is stable

Also Faerie even says it is the Moon that has come close, that the Moon cannot be pushed back (implying it is the one that moved), and Sho says that Faerie used his power to bring down the Moon and that Shinra stopped the Moon (not the Earth).

All in one page.

I don't care if this is "frame of reference" talk, there is far too much evidence supporting the Moon being the one to have moved, not the Earth.

Well but I’m sure you can’t deny the science behind the increase in mass and the body with the larger mass does the attraction?

Anyway what do you suggest we do or how else can we calc it?

 

[PowerToScale]

Opinion
Personally, I do not believe in Arcs understanding of the feat

When the feat happens we see that moon is traveling towards the earth as is ablaze, the same as how objects are on reentry, not only that but we even see that Faerie calls it a "moon fall" and directs his hands down and implies further so by saying that the "moon which has come so close can't not be pushed back", implying that it has moved closer and the earth being moved to it (Thanks Damage finding this) . We clearly se that both by visually and of the person performing the feat that the moon is falling down to earth. We also see that the moon coming closer is causing havoc, as the moon controls the tidal forces, etc... of the earth

When Shinra stops the event, he stops the moon and not the earth, which is still ablaze. Arc believes that Earth is moving and if so Shinra would need to kick the earth to stop it, not the moon. Also going with the understanding that the earth is being pulled, everything on the surface would have been flung off the and directed to the moon due to the its greater gravity, which isn't the case in the chapter.

Another issue is assuming that he is increasing the mass, which while he can, it is nowhere said or limited to him only doing so, and is important to keep in mind of my new outlook/proposal

Conclusion and New Outlook
In terms of of Arcs understanding of the feat. He understands his powers but not the feat, and I feel to come to understand what is happen. Faerie is not launching the moon and not the earth, but this isn't because he is is increasing the moons mass, but decreasing. Why is my understanding more valid.

1- Through all the visuals, the moon is falling, being ablaze and is coming toward the earth. (Visually)
2- The persona performing the feat affects the moon and even calls it a moon fall and is even talked about as if it have come closer. (stated to be)
3- The general understanding/narrative is that the moon came to the earth, not the other way. (general narrative understanding)
4- Never stated to only increase mass. (No specific limit on powers)

TL;dr Faerie manipulates the gravitational attraction of objects by altering the mass of objects, which in this feat he decreases the moons, causing the gravitational pull of the earth to pull it in.

Where From here?
So where do we go from here. In terms of calcs, i believe that Pr3digy version best fits the feat, in which it takes account for a decreased mass (albeit assumed mass) and that the moon moved towards the earth, however, if we can calculate the mass of a moon needed that can be pulled in by the earth, that would be substituted into the calc instead

 

[Cyberblader90]

faerie is never stated to decrease mass. he increases mass

 

[PowerToScale]

faerie is never stated to decrease mass. he increases mass

This is him explaining how his powers with the situation of overcoming earths pull, not him saying he increases only. Its him just saying if I wanted something to be stronger than the earths pull, with my Adolla burst I can increase the objects mass and density, not "I can only increases", "my power is to only increase". It doesn't limit him from decreasing.

 

[Cyberblader90]

he says he adjusts gravitational force to makes the target fall. His specific power is heating atoms, which increases the mass of the target. He doesnt lower the mass of a target to lower it

 

[Damage3245]

I think that PowerToScale makes some good points.

 

[Cyberblader90]

he says the heating of atoms INCREASES mass, and then he adjusts gravity as he pleases

 

[Slacjow]

The whole context of the event heavily implies and directly states that the moon was falling onto Earth, not that the Earth was going at the Moon.
This is the first time I hear that interpretation which is not supported by pretty much anything besides conjecture from VSB users only.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Will address powertoscale later but when was faerie stated to be able to reduce the mass? Cause all he said was he increases the moons mass

 

[PrinceofPein]

The whole context of the event heavily implies and directly states that the moon was falling onto Earth, not that the Earth was going at the Moon.
This is the first time I hear that interpretation which is not supported by pretty much anything besides conjecture from VSB users only.

We are only following the physics behind his abilities
If the moon’s mass becomes more than that of the earth then yes the moon pulls the earth not the other way around

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Again, the Moon was floating in lower Earth atmosphere, something Faerie stated would only happen if said object (Moon) had Earth’s mass.

 

[Damage3245]

Again, the Moon was floating in lower Earth atmosphere, something Faerie stated would only happen if said object (Moon) had Earth’s mass.

I don't think that part is farfetched (well, maybe a little considering some stuff that happens in Soul Eater) but it's just the Earth moving towards the Moon that I am objecting to at the moment.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't think that part is farfetched (well, maybe a little considering some stuff that happens in Soul Eater) but it's just the Earth moving towards the Moon that I am objecting to at the moment.

Gotcha so you’re fine with Earth mass goofy smile moon?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I kinda gotta agree with Arc here, Faerie explicitly explains how his power works and Arc's calc reflects it better

It's certainly a weird way to drop the moon on your opponent, but it is creative, I'll give him that

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I kinda gotta agree with Arc here, Faerie explicitly explains how his power works and Arc's calc reflects it better

It's certainly a weird way to drop the moon on your opponent, but it is creative, I'll give him that

Clarification you’re speaking about an earth mass moon correct? If so I can update my calc blog to reflect such.

 

[Damage3245]

I kinda gotta agree with Arc here, Faerie explicitly explains how his power works and Arc's calc reflects it better

It's certainly a weird way to drop the moon on your opponent, but it is creative, I'll give him that

Faerie explains how he is able to float; he doesn't give a description of him causing the Earth to move towards the Moon.

And it would entirely inconsistent with Shinra stopping the Moon moving with his kick.

If it was happening how Arc described, then the Earth would continue moving towards the Moon while Shinra was kicking it.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Clarification you’re speaking about an earth mass moon correct? If so I can update my calc blog to reflect such.

Yes, Earth Mass Moon

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Faerie explains how he is able to float; he doesn't give a description of him causing the Earth to move towards the Moon.

And it would entirely inconsistent with Shinra stopping the Moon moving with his kick.

If it was happening how Arc described, then the Earth would continue moving towards the Moon while Shinra was kicking it.

It means Shinra kicked the moon further from its initial position

Regardless both methods work anyways. I’m not opposed to simply calcing the moon moving.

 

[Quangotjokes]

It means Shinra kicked the moon further from its initial position

Regardless both methods work anyways. I’m not opposed to simply calcing the moon moving.

Shinra only stopped the moon. He didn't push it backwards.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

And it would entirely inconsistent with Shinra stopping the Moon moving with his kick.

If it was happening how Arc described, then the Earth would continue moving towards the Moon while Shinra was kicking it.

Not at all, so earth mass objects only float in the air of earth aka in earths atmosphere.

Considering the moon floated in earth’s air, that means it has earth’s mass. However, when Faerie originally increased its mass to earth’s mass it wasn’t in earth’s atmosphere. So it started to fall to earth, and it didn’t stop because it had gained momentum. But when Shinra stopped the moon’s momentum it stayed still and floated thanks to having earth’s mass.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It’s not up for debate that the Moon has Earth’s mass in this scenario, Faerie verbatim states that objects with Earth’s mass float in Earth’s air.

However, Damage how about we compromise on a GPE calc until the anime gives us a time frame?

 

[Dalesean027]

anime

2-3 year wait lol until we get there
(I can't do the line through text thing on mobile so just imagine it)

 

[Quangotjokes]

A short timeframe seems reasonable to assume, this seemed to have taken place rather quickly

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m fine with KE too, I’m also fine with waiting for the anime, up to staff vote.

 

[Dalesean027]

A short timeframe seems reasonable to assume, this seemed to have taken place rather quickly

Yeah the entire moon fiasco didn't go on for even the length of a chapter

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think the current time frame is 2 minutes