• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Helltaker Downgrade

Status
Not open for further replies.
Saikou_The_Lewd_King

Saikou_The_Lewd_King

The King of all Things Lewd
VS Battles
Retired
15,418
5,748
Been waiting for a while to do this but, the current Helltaker profile is wanked, mostly in term of abilities.

First of all the "At least" should likely be removed from all profiles in the verse. The feats are clear cut 9-B and nothing indicates higher tiers other than Belzeebub's stuff, which doesn't scale to anyone.

Secondly all those abilities are bad:

-Social Influencing: Mildly convincing someone to join your "harem" isn't enough. The demons are more like super easy to convince. Nothing indicates him having any particular skills.

-Resurrection: Game mechanics.

-Portal Creation: Only done in a specific place in a specific way. It's unlikely to be an inherent ability of Helltaker and more something that anyone can do under those specific circumstances. Way too specific to be on his profile.

-Extrasensory Perception: No reasons for it to exist.

-Plot & Time Manip: While the ability to skip puzzles is mentioned, we don't know how this is accomplished. It's way too vague to apply any abilities to, imo.

-Immortality: This "ability" only comes from Helltaker being in the Abyss at some point in time. It's not an inherent ability of his and it applies to anyone who goes in the Abyss.

-Resistance to Death Manip: Same as above.

-Resistance to Disease Manip: He is explicitly affected by the diseases. This is a textbook example of not resistance. He simply can't die due to the absence of a concept of death in the Abyss.

-Resistance to Perception Manip: Again, he is explicitly affected by the lack of sight in the Abyss. Him living "normally" in the Abyss is a big fat assumption with no basing.

So tl;dr, the profile gets reduced to Superhuman Physical Characteristics and Pain Tolerance and the "At least" gets removed.



Also a small upgrade. Due to the lastest Twitter comic, Lucifer and all future demon profiles should get Shapeshifting.
 
Being the one who made the profile, I agree with p much everything.

However skipping levels and Disease resistance or Extrasensory Perception should stay:

For disease and perception it's pretty much obvious: He was afflicted by all diseases known to mankind, and some of them make you unable to even move, see or talk without you dying. The abyss was only said to prevent him from dying. Being able to react/"see" Bel in a place with no "concept of sight" would require" some kind of perception too.
 
Everything in the OP makes sense to me, I agree.
 
Finally this was made. I agree with everything, although a possibly Time Manipulation should stay because the level skip is outright stated in verse to be a thing.
 
Again, yes the Skip Puzzle thingy is a thing but we don't know what it does in-universe. Claiming it to be time manip when it could be so many safer options is silly. Honestly I'd just rate it as Fourth Wall Breaking for the girls.

He was affected by all diseases. Absolutely nothing indicates that he was able to ignore the effects of some of them. He doesn't even do anything until the end of this story segment. You assuming that Helltaker was able to "live normally" or even do anything in the Abyss is pure headcanon.
 
He did talk and offer pancakes to Bel, which would need at very least minor resistances for "all diseases known to mankind".

Also Bel did imply that Helltaker living normally is a possibilty, since she said that maybe we're the Helltaker listening to her telling the story among the possibilities.

It isn't that important either way.
 
Or simply that:

1. He's not inflicted with the final, most severe stage of each of those diseases.

2. Bel, being the one who did the deed passively, has enough control over these diseases as to not completely incapacitate her only companion.

3. The devs did not think about the Helltaker being inflicted by instantly incapacitating diseases and as neither these or resistance to these are acknowledged we shouldn't treat it as resistance.

Bel was talking alone and out of her ass, clearly insane. She's not reliable in the slightest regarding this.

I don't care if you find it unimportant, it shouldn't be on the profile.
 
Saikou_The_Lewd_King said:
Again, yes the Skip Puzzle thingy is a thing but we don't know what it does in-universe. Claiming it to be time manip when it could be so many safer options is silly. Honestly I'd just rate it as Fourth Wall Breaking for the girls.
Click to expand...
Which is why I said we rate it as "possibly". Fourth Wall Breaking is a fine alternative also.
 
If we have Time Manip as "possibly" then we'd need to list every single alternative as "possibly" too. It's absurd. I'd say stick to 4th wall break for the girls.
 
Oh okay. "Skipping a puzzle" MUST be time manip, even if it doesn't make any sense as time manip only speeds things forward and won't actually help the Helltaker solve the puzzle. Surely only time manip can fit this power and not:

-Plot Manip (as noted in the page)

-Teleportation (To instantly get to the girl, skipping the puzzle)

-Flight (To simply get over the puzzle)

-Literally just getting over the obstacles instead of acting like a video game character

-Statistics Amp (To brute force your way through the puzzle)

There are about a dozen different explanations that could work here. Time Manip is not even the most likely of them. But regardless it's way too vague to put anything on the profile. It shouldn't be on the profile. Period.
 
Besides Helltaker, shouldn't Lucifer and Bel have Longevity? It's said that demons need to be truly ancient to have their horns color.
 
Saikou_The_Lewd_King said:
Oh okay. "Skipping a puzzle" MUST be time manip, even if it doesn't make any sense as time manip only speeds things forward and won't actually help the Helltaker solve the puzzle. Surely only time manip can fit this power and not:

-Plot Manip (as noted in the page)

-Teleportation (To instantly get to the girl, skipping the puzzle)

-Flight (To simply get over the puzzle)

-Literally just getting over the obstacles instead of acting like a video game character

-Statistics Amp (To brute force your way through the puzzle)

There are about a dozen different explanations that could work here. Time Manip is not even the most likely of them. But regardless it's way too vague to put anything on the profile. It shouldn't be on the profile. Period.
Click to expand...
You keep strawmanning. I never said or implied any of that.

Not to mention out of all of those only plot manip would be considered a reasonable assumption, because it's the most in line with what we see on screen.
 
You said it yourself, that time manip is the "only reasonable" assumption. Even though it's blatantly not the case.

We don't see shit on screen. At all. It simply cuts to the girl appearing. In an otherwise grounded game I do not consider a jumpcut to be a "proof" of anything actually happening on-screen. Again, we don't know how it's actually done and a jumpcut is not a reason to assume an ability as powerful as Plot Manip. It should not be rated on the profile.

Also yes for Longevity.
 
I think we have enough input to make revisions if not made already.
 
Saikou_The_Lewd_King said:
You said it yourself, that time manip is the "only reasonable" assumption. Even though it's blatantly not the case.

We don't see shit on screen. At all. It simply cuts to the girl appearing. In an otherwise grounded game I do not consider a jumpcut to be a "proof" of anything actually happening on-screen. Again, we don't know how it's actually done and a jumpcut is not a reason to assume an ability as powerful as Plot Manip. It should not be rated on the profile.
Click to expand...
A reasonable assumption isn't "1000000000000% MUST HAVE PROOF ZOMG XD LOOOL", it's exactly what it says it is, an assumption, that's reasonable from everything that's presented so far. That's not even close to "claiming it must be time manip and literally nothing else in existence".

And I never said plot manipt you did, I just said from everything you posted, that would be the only thing that would qualify for being a reasonable assumption.
 
So has this revision been sufficiently accepted then?
 
Anyway, this seems fine to me as well.
 
You're not claiming it's "a" reasonable assumption. You're claiming it's "the" reasonable assumption. Ignoring all other possible explanations. There is no point in adding a power due to it being "a" reasonable assumption when there are tons of other equally reasonable assumptions.

I mentioned plot manip because that's what on the profile. Doesn't mean I agree with it or think it's the most likely one. As I keep saying, we don't know anything about what's happening because it cuts away. We shouldn't assume anything out of something this vague. And thus, nothing should be on the profile (again, other than 4th wall awareness for the girls). Adding anything would be an unsubstantiated headcanon.
 
You keep stramming. Never once did I claim that. And there aren't we've been over this. We use reasonable assumptions all the time on profiles, virtually every power that's not spoon fed to us is a reasonable assumption. The most notable example of this is GER, not a single sentence anywhere says that it's causality manip, but we can infer that that's the most reasnoble conclusion based on what we see and our wiki's standard.

You said that I was the one that claimed that I said it has to be plot manip, which I corrected. It was you to suggest it, all I said was from that list, that's the only one that would qualify.

And I already multiple times that I'm fine with 4th wall breaking, but you keep pushing a non existing argument. There's a huge difference between suggesting a reasonable assumption and "unsubstantiated headcanon".
 
Saikou_The_Lewd_King said:
Been waiting for a while to do this but, the current Helltaker profile is wanked, mostly in term of abilities.

First of all the "At least" should likely be removed from all profiles in the verse. The feats are clear cut 9-B and nothing indicates higher tiers other than Belzeebub's stuff, which doesn't scale to anyone.

Secondly all those abilities are bad:

-Social Influencing: Mildly convincing someone to join your "harem" isn't enough. The demons are more like super easy to convince. Nothing indicates him having any particular skills.

-Resurrection: Game mechanics.

-Portal Creation: Only done in a specific place in a specific way. It's unlikely to be an inherent ability of Helltaker and more something that anyone can do under those specific circumstances. Way too specific to be on his profile.

-Extrasensory Perception: No reasons for it to exist.

-Plot & Time Manip: While the ability to skip puzzles is mentioned, we don't know how this is accomplished. It's way too vague to apply any abilities to, imo.

-Immortality: This "ability" only comes from Helltaker being in the Abyss at some point in time. It's not an inherent ability of his and it applies to anyone who goes in the Abyss.

-Resistance to Death Manip: Same as above.

-Resistance to Disease Manip: He is explicitly affected by the diseases. This is a textbook example of not resistance. He simply can't die due to the absence of a concept of death in the Abyss.

-Resistance to Perception Manip: Again, he is explicitly affected by the lack of sight in the Abyss. Him living "normally" in the Abyss is a big fat assumption with no basing.

So tl;dr, the profile gets reduced to Superhuman Physical Characteristics and Pain Tolerance and the "At least" gets removed.



Also a small upgrade. Due to the lastest Twitter comic, Lucifer and all future demon profiles should get Shapeshifting.
Click to expand...
Beelzebub would scale to justice since justice beat her in the past.
 
Bump, also ....
What tells us that all demons have shapeshifting ability?
Lucifer in the comic just says she has them
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

CuteAnimeNekoGirl99
The Mistress of the Flies vs the King of the Sea (Beelzebub vs The Deep)
Replies
3
Views
701
Just_Butchering
Just_Butchering
Mickey1940
Helltaker Revision: Lucifer and Azazel should be 8C
Replies
7
Views
1K
Board3659
Board3659
Giannysmag
Yuji Itadori Vs The Helltaker (Jujutsu Kaisen Vs Helltaker)
Replies
13
Views
2K
Board3659
Board3659
TyphonEX
More DOOM upgrades
Replies
11
Views
1K
Theglassman12
Theglassman12
Sparkive
The Takers (The Undertaker VS The Helltaker)
Replies
14
Views
2K
Sparkive
Sparkive
Back
Top