Hellsing: Upgrades

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I agree with Gin and Random, the feats and scaling look fine.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[DMUA]

Unless it can be countered by other vampires' abilities, or can be beaten by physical attacks. For example, Alucard demonstrates an ability to float, and in the case of Walter's wires, you'd be dealing with items Walter throws physically, probably partly with his own telekinesis based on how they move in his vampire state, and obviously items which are hard to see. In the case of Alucard's and Seras' bullets, we're dealing with large guns designed to kill supersonic targets, firing smallish and hard to see bullets made of blessed silver which specifically nullifies at least some vampiric abilities, as it nulls vampire regeneration, and remember, universal energy system.

Being able to counter something doesn't make it less useful to apply in short bursts in places they aren't expecting, otherwise the entire concept of combat becomes meaningless. Yeah, Alucard can float and also use telekinesis, that doesn't mean you can't apply it to his arm to throw off his aim and provide an opening to his center mass, or chuck a car at him from behind, or a lot of miscellaneous applications that could sidestep directly clashing in power.

Except that if Tubalcain's telekinesis is stronger than his physicals by that much, supporting his physical attacks telekinetically would make his physical attacks also that strong.

I guess, but even then Tubalcain isn't the one with the super high end TK feats (or even that comparable to Alucard in the grand scheme of things considering he gets slaughtered the moment he activates level 1)

If I'm just forgetting something on that end I guess I can drop it, even if I definitely don't agree with the idea

 

[Random-Helper323]

Being able to counter something doesn't make it less useful to apply in short bursts in places they aren't expecting, otherwise the entire concept of combat becomes meaningless. Yeah, Alucard can float and also use telekinesis, that doesn't mean you can't apply it to his arm to throw off his aim and provide an opening to his center mass, or chuck a car at him from behind, or a lot of miscellaneous applications that could sidestep directly clashing in power.

Perhaps, but unfortunately this can be explained by some of the strange things the author chose to do. The series alternates between super edgy and super silly on a dime, and I guess given that he's used to writing hen+@i then he'd be used to writing over the top crap that makes very little sense.

I guess, but even then Tubalcain isn't the one with the super high end TK feats (or even that comparable to Alucard in the grand scheme of things considering he gets slaughtered the moment he activates level 1)

This is true, but the Universal Energy System powers both, and Tubalcain was comparable to if not stronger than base Alucard. Base Alucard was the form that performed the tier 8 telekinesis feat.

With him being a copy of Alucard, and his power being comparable or even greater than that of base Alucard, his telekinesis should be the same or greater compared to base Alucard's.

Tubalcain uses his telekinesis in battle, using it to move his cards around himself at close range to defend himself, and in the OVA one of his attacks uses it. And yet when he attacks with a card against straitjacket Alucard at the end, Alucard overwhelms him using a physical attack.

So either a clever schemer capable of tier 8 telekinesis, and using it extremely close to his own body in an effective defensive barrier, was suddenly too dumb to think to use it to support his attacks while he was holding his cards, or to project his cards after throwing them, or even to move them around himself telekinetically again to block Alucard's fatal attacks, even though he was seen using that same telekinesis in that exact way seconds earlier to block attacks he didn't think were as threatening, and as a result got destroyed by a tier 9 attack, or his attacks were all that powerful.

Keeping in mind that the former would mean that Tubalcain had tier 8 telekinesis which he used to block attacks he didn't see as a big deal, and then decided not to use it in the exact same way seconds later when Alucard was about to slaughter him using tier 9 attacks. The simplest solution is that his physical and telekinetic abilities were comparable to each other.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

honestly agree with DMUA here to be honest while I agree that the universal power system of more blood= more power it seems to be applying more so to hax than actual full on physical power the only instance we see a vampire actually get a big physical power boost is Seras but that is honestly a special case as Pip did give his blood willingly and that is outright stated to provide a merger of souls different to what alucard has plus it was her first soul and her turning into a true vampire so that is already questionable enough and that is the only real linchpin in this whole situation of universal power source as we just go ahead and say that alucard decreases his durability cuse he is playing around but what about walter who was keeping up with alucard and who we also wanna scale to 7-C in both dura and AP he got shot and heavily damaged by that crazed German git with a basic ass sniper rifle do we also apply 7-C to all weapons of similar caliber in the series? or what about alucards signature guns they should by all accounts scale with this proposed system to 8-B+ since multiple characters in that range have been able to block or nullify the bullets (tubal Cain and Anderson) but we also have the jackal that should scale to that level also rip apart post nail Anderson's head nearly clean off did it just jump 3 whole tiers just like that?

Like honestly I am fine with most of the revision but the whole scaling the telekinesis to their physicals is questionable at best since we never actually see anyone take alucards telekinetic might head on cuse he never used it in a fight proper other than to suck up all the blood in London and I do believe we need more proof of that scaling rather than just waving it away as universal power source cuse even if we use the example of dragon ball like random helper did for seras there are still abilities and attacks that scale far above basic physical power for example the Kamehameha and the special beam canon these allow goku and picolo to output well over double their regular strength levels (Saiyan saga goku's Kamehameha being 800+ while he was 400+ while the special beam canon outright ended raditz who was over 1200) and in universal power systems that can always apply to certain abilities and hax and I believe that in this case it does apply to telekinesis

Honestly I believe we should go for something like

what ever tier other feats are at possibly town level for their stats like ap and dura because honestly feels like we are jumping the gun with the whole universal power system hear

 

[Random-Helper323]

the only instance we see a vampire actually get a big physical power boost is Seras but that is honestly a special case as Pip did give his blood willingly and that is outright stated to provide a merger of souls different to what alucard has plus it was her first soul and her turning into a true vampire so that is already questionable

It's only vaguely described as different with no context. Unless you mean to say Seras surpassed Alucard and has an entirely different power source, this means nothing.

what about walter who was keeping up with alucard and who we also wanna scale to 7-C in both dura and AP he got shot and heavily damaged by that crazed German git with a basic ass sniper rifle

A Walter that was in the process of falling apart, and a sniper rifle Heinkel took from an Iscariot officer, which would have certainly been loaded with silver bullets. Iscariot also showed up planning to fight Millennium, so the bullets might be designed to get through armour as well.

do we also apply 7-C to all weapons of similar caliber in the series? or what about alucards signature guns they should by all accounts scale with this proposed system to 8-B+ since multiple characters in that range have been able to block or nullify the bullets (tubal Cain and Anderson) but we also have the jackal that should scale to that level also rip apart post nail Anderson's head nearly clean off did it just jump 3 whole tiers just like that?

The guns were useless against Tubalcain, and Anderson was in the process of transforming. Right afterwards the Jackal could hardly do anything to Anderson. In addition piercing damage is often treated as durability negation, like in JoJo's where a vampire who should at very least be comparable to Tarukus has his hand sliced in half with Dio's knife. That actually does have some basis in truth, since there are materials such as Kevlar which can be cut through in the right circumstances.

Like honestly I am fine with most of the revision but the whole scaling the telekinesis to their physicals is questionable at best since we never actually see anyone take alucards telekinetic might head on cuse he never used it in a fight proper other than to suck up all the blood in London and I do believe we need more proof of that scaling rather than just waving it away as universal power source

And Tubalcain using telekinesis to block attacks. Is this giant long sentence designed to overwhelm people so they can't respond? Even I see it as lengthy, and I read the Lord of the Rings trilogy when I was twelve.

cuse even if we use the example of dragon ball like random helper did for seras there are still abilities and attacks that scale far above basic physical power for example the Kamehameha and the special beam canon these allow goku and picolo to output well over double their regular strength levels (Saiyan saga goku's Kamehameha being 800+ while he was 400+ while the special beam canon outright ended raditz who was over 1200) and in universal power systems that can always apply to certain abilities and hax and I believe that in this case it does apply to telekinesis

Even what you're describing is temporary rises in power in a verse where that happens a lot. And much smaller than a 9-A character forgetting to use his 8-B telekinesis to defend himself even though he did exactly that seconds earlier.

what ever tier other feats are at possibly town level for their stats like ap and dura because honestly feels like we are jumping the gun with the whole universal power system hear

 

[Sir_sun_man]

It's only vaguely described as different with no context. Unless you mean to say Seras surpassed Alucard and has an entirely different power source, this means nothing.

it doesn't mean she surpasses alucard in any way but it is outright stated to be different than basic consumtion of blood so we do not know its true effect and to use a literal unknown as a basis for the power system is questionable at best

A Walter that was in the process of falling apart, and a sniper rifle Heinkel took from an Iscariot officer, which would have certainly been loaded with silver bullets. Iscariot also showed up planning to fight Millennium, so the bullets might be designed to get through armour as well.

unless we want to say he went from 7-C instantly to 9-A I doubt that would hold up as for iscariot rifles they are basic rifles with silver bullets they are not like the jackle 12mm round which you could argue something for but a basic armor penetrating bullet kinda doubt it
but what ever

The guns were useless against Tubalcain, and Anderson was in the process of transforming. Right afterwards the Jackal could hardly do anything to Anderson. In addition piercing damage is often treated as durability negation, like in JoJo's where a vampire who should at very least be comparable to Tarukus has his hand sliced in half with Dio's knife. That actually does have some basis in truth, since there are materials such as Kevlar which can be cut through in the right circumstances.

the problem lies in the fact that they where useless against Tubalcain his cards could easily block those rounds and we see alucard being able to just punch through them but we also see anderson not partly transformed but fully get his arm managled by those bullets. I am not trying to go oh well ya see they use guns so 9-B type bullshit I know that is not the case and the whole scaling guns to a certain level doesn't work in fiction the problem for me lie with the guns being able to damage a 7-C character while fully failing against some 8-B cards it would either imply that the universal power system doesn't apply to durability for some reason or that it doesn't work in the way we are trying to adapt it here
anderson getting his arms ripped apart by the jackal and cassul

And Tubalcain using telekinesis to block attacks.

yeah through the use of cards which are some what inconsistent and the question of weather it scales to AP and dura is still in there since he never actually punched or took a hit from anyone, hell we see alucard instantly break his legs but than having to wind up to rip through the card and after which point he rips through Tubalcains arm like a hot knife through butter.
top panel on the left you can see card jiblets after seras shoots him and in the lower pannel the same effect.
hell when alucard shoots him its the same thing.

Is this giant long sentence designed to overwhelm people so they can't respond? Even I see it as lengthy, and I read the Lord of the Rings trilogy when I was twelve.

I just tend to right in big sentances there is nothing real to it(I always for get my commas)

Even what you're describing is temporary rises in power in a verse where that happens a lot. And much smaller than a 9-A character forgetting to use his 8-B telekinesis to defend himself even though he did exactly that seconds earlier.

expect he doesn't use his TK even at moments it would help him massively be it anderson's swords or walters wires like others have brought up or you know ever in a proper fight

But what ever I know this is going to be accepted no matter what grivences are brought up we're kinda on a hype train of previous CRT's being top tier stuff

So yeah my piece is said and do what ever you want fellas

 

[Random-Helper323]

it doesn't mean she surpasses alucard in any way but it is outright stated to be different than basic consumtion of blood so we do not know its true effect and to use a literal unknown as a basis for the power system is questionable at best

It's only stated that having blood offered results in something different from just taking it. It's still blood, and still vampirism. It's like saying training in Dragon Ball results in better results than Cell's idea of just absorbing people. While it's true, it doesn't change the entire nature of the basic power structure.

unless we want to say he went from 7-C instantly to 9-A I doubt that would hold up

His parts were literally falling off on their own mere minutes after.

as for iscariot rifles they are basic rifles with silver bullets they are not like the jackle 12mm round which you could argue something for

They're guns designed to kill enemies that can easily dodge bullets, made by an organisation that gives humans regeneration and superhuman power through experimentation, and which is long-time rival to Hellsing, the organisation which made the Jackal, the Casull, and the Harkonen. It's hard to be certain what those weapons are capable of, especially when blessed silver is well established to be threatening to vampires.

the problem lies in the fact that they where useless against Tubalcain his cards could easily block those rounds and we see alucard being able to just punch through them but we also see anderson not partly transformed but fully get his arm managled by those bullets

Piercing damage is often treated that way. Plus, did the Jackal ever get used against Tubalcain? It was the Jackal that damaged Anderson's arm.

. I am not trying to go oh well ya see they use guns so 9-B type bullshit I know that is not the case and the whole scaling guns to a certain level doesn't work in fiction the problem for me lie with the guns being able to damage a 7-C character while fully failing against some 8-B cards

Piercing damage is frequently treated that way. Blocking it with another weapon is often treated as the key to it, as things like durability and even armour are frequently useless.

we see alucard instantly break his legs but than having to wind up to rip through the card and after which point he rips through Tubalcains arm like a hot knife through butter.

The card is a blade, and likely where he focused his power. It's also not that hard to break a knee by ramming your heel into it from the front. He might have made a mistake and had his leg straight.

expect he doesn't use his TK even at moments it would help him massively be it anderson's swords or walters wires like others have brought up or you know ever in a proper fight

Unless the force moving those items, which is also telekinesis (remember how Anderson's blades can attack around corners?), and already has a grip on the weapon and momentum behind it, can prevent opposing telekinesis from stopping it.

 

[Crabwhale]

Honestly, neutral on this. I understand where both sides are coming from. Personally, while I do not particularly like scaling to one or two feats that seem vastly above the total power showcased consistently throughout the verse, I also cannot deny that said feats do exist and have no strong base of anti-feats (or at least anti-feats without asterisks involved).

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Bump

 

[LordGinSama]

I must be remembering an entirely different Walter fight. Walter repeatedly gores the guy, messes up his familiars and weapons, and almost straight up kills Alucard if not for him pulling a last minute trick, and apparently Alucard was just fine with that and didn't try that hard?

He wasnt toying with Walter "a little." the whole fight consisted of Alucard's openly mocking Walter for choosing to become a vampire. Alucard getting gored by the wires are irrelevant considering Alucard most of the time openly takes damage to play mind tricks on the opponent.


Should be evident considering Walter was ragdolling Alucard with his wires around his legs and never cut them off while doing so.


Girlycard was shown to be able to overpower Vampire Walter.

I get he might have been toying with him a little bit by not just immediately sucking up all his own blood to guarantee victory, but the idea he was just entirely complicit and sandbagging his durability like usual is a bit goofy when he was being repeatedly flayed along with a bunch of his bag of tricks. Then again, also featured in Walter vs Alucard is him never actually attempting to use Telekinesis despite that also having a ton of uses, especially since Walter's wires aren't that heavy and would probably be child's play to redirect.

Read above, he didn't want to use TK on Walter. That was a melee range situation for Alucard, we know how he likes to finish his opponents; up close and personal.

In this case, we have this massive impact enough to shatter an entire high rise... leaving a ton of fire, and then we get a glimpse of some torn up metal near the impact site. If an a Mach 3 plane was launched directly into it and caused a massive 20 PSI explosion, the ship would have it's structures entirely warped and probably would start sinking. Most of the blast we see is fuel going off, which can indeed cause an explosion, but it's primarily flame instead of the much more destructive pressure that comes with proper bombs.

I literally just gave you full blown scans of the amount of damage done to IRL military air craft carries after having planes rammed into them. I think your heavily underestimating just how strong the materials are be considering literally none of the Kamakaze attacks in history has ever left a air craft carrier in bits.

Only saw this after I already grabbed the picture I was thinking of, but if you look carefully, there's not a lot of actual structural damage here. It's mostly the fires, which are massive and would definitely debilitate the ship, but in terms of actual metal being ripped apart, it's not much.

It was damaged enough to shave off a large chunk of the left hand side and rendered it immobilized.


With all due respect how are you going to look at that picture, look back at me and say "it ain't much"

The Japanese Zero mentioned in these texts were also expressly designed to be extremely light and could only go at a top speed of 154.2288 meters per second. The SR-17 amalgamation is a straight up fighter jet weighing in at several tons, accumulating a kinetic energy of what I remember to be around 4 Tons of TNT.

I like how you deadass picked one out of the many examples used there. They once dropped an armor piercing bomb on one once, guess what? Wasn't turned into bits.


I think your really riding this argument from hell and back despite it being overall irrelevant here. The ship was heavily damaged and unable to move any longer.

 

[LordGinSama]

To quote from the KE page.

• For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.

Does this look "largely undamaged???"

 

[Random-Helper323]

That pictures seems to show a ship which has been demolished. The structure looks twisted, which hints at deep structural damage, and what appears to be wiring and destroyed structural components is hanging everywhere. It's not easy to smash up an engine or metal structure like that either. It looks like someone took a giant circular saw to it. Can't help but notice a large part of its starboard side is missing too.

Edit: Another thing here is that battleships and their carrier cousins are generally designed to take a lot of impact. It isn't that easy to mangle an entire ship. It took them ages to sink the Bismarck using torpedoes, for example, and only worked because they got really lucky.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Actually, I noticed something in the scan Gin posted earlier, the one showing the deck from above with fire spreading through the ship. The scan shows fire coming up from under the deck through splits in said deck, and the tower is ablaze even though no fire leads to it and dropping a burning plane next to it wouldn't have that effect. And this might come as a surprise to some, but warships are intentionally designed not to burn. It's actually the reason why the idea of using aluminium to build warships was ultimately rejected; it's strong enough proportionate to mass, but it burns. Steel and concrete are very fire-resistant materials.

At a glance it just looks like a fire, but it's more than that; the impact appears to have set the entire inside of the ship ablaze. The cracks in the deck have fire coming out because the ship is full of it, and the tower literally burned from under the deck and upwards. It means the impact absolutely mangled and destroyed the inside of the ship.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Actually, I noticed something in the scan Gin posted earlier, the one showing the deck from above with fire spreading through the ship. The scan shows fire coming up from under the deck through splits in said deck, and the tower is ablaze even though no fire leads to it and dropping a burning plane next to it wouldn't have that effect. And this might come as a surprise to some, but warships are intentionally designed not to burn. It's actually the reason why the idea of using aluminium to build warships was ultimately rejected; it's strong enough proportionate to mass, but it burns. Steel and concrete are very fire-resistant materials.

At a glance it just looks like a fire, but it's more than that; the impact appears to have set the entire inside of the ship ablaze. The cracks in the deck have fire coming out because the ship is full of it, and the tower literally burned from under the deck and upwards. It means the impact absolutely mangled and destroyed the inside of the ship.

what is this being used for exactly? cause I don't think we can really scale anything to the ships damage prior to its appearance in London as ya know we don't know if Alucard did that damage in a single second or over the span of multiple hours it took him to get to London

So, we can't quite reliably scale that stuff to AP or LS

 

[Random-Helper323]

what is this being used for exactly? cause I don't think we can really scale anything to the ships damage prior to its appearance in London as ya know we don't know if Alucard did that damage in a single second or over the span of multiple hours it took him to get to London

So, we can't quite reliably scale that stuff to AP or LS

The fires had long since gone out when Alucard arrived in London. The scan I'm talking about is moments after the plane impacts the deck.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Bump.

It seems to me that the damage to the ship is largely internal. Within moments of the plane impacting the ship's deck, the deck has flames coming out from under the deck through splits, and the tower is ablaze despite there being no visible fire leading to it, meaning it also caught fire from under the deck. In addition, the structural material we see under the deck is all twisted.

In short, the impact appears to have mangled the inside of the ship and apparently caused quite a burst of flames inside, with the fire spreading not from the deck but from inside the ship. There is certainly a good amount of damage to the ship caused by the impact.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

Random-Helper323 makes sense to me. There seems to be a lot of damage done to the ship, so the aircraft's KE wouldn't really be contradicted here

 

[The_Pink_God]

How much more do we need until this thread gets accepted?
BTW Clover still haven't answered the comment on his Mist Creation blog, that might need some attention

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump

 

[The_Pink_God]

And another bump

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump, if DMUA doesn't reply soon I'll continue without him since I believe this has enough staff input for approval.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Agreed

 

[Robo432343]

Bump, if DMUA doesn't reply soon I'll continue without him since I believe this has enough staff input for approval.

i think DMUA Stopped watching this thread

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

i think DMUA Stopped watching this thread

Oh shit

 

[Ped2018]

Man, he ain't responding

 

[Jason_Courne]

Vampires in Hellsing are actually immune to traditional gunfire, the Hellsing and Iscariots organization just use specilized anti-vampire weaponry (Holy magic, silver bullets, the nail that impaled Jesus Christ)

That mist calc seems to be a pretty heavy low end, considering it was stated to have covered "all parts of Dover" and "the entire oceanic area", which I found to be roughly Large Town level

 

[TheRustyOne]

The calcs above and the scaling seem fine to me from what I've read of this thread. I'm not knowledgeable about Hellsing, just going off what I'm reading here.

My only concern is the density of mist being used, which isn't sourced. So I cannot truly say if that is alright.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Vampires in Hellsing are actually immune to traditional gunfire, the Hellsing and Iscariots organization just use specilized anti-vampire weaponry (Holy magic, silver bullets, the nail that impaled Jesus Christ)

That mist calc seems to be a pretty heavy low end, considering it was stated to have covered "all parts of Dover" and "the entire oceanic area", which I found to be roughly Large Town level

question is how accurate that is, what fog density and a few other variable we sorta don't got but could make for a possibly high 7-C rating cuse it is an offscreen feat that is hard to properly quantify but possible

 

[CloverDragon03]

The calcs above and the scaling seem fine to me from what I've read of this thread. I'm not knowledgeable about Hellsing, just going off what I'm reading here.

My only concern is the density of mist being used, which isn't sourced. So I cannot truly say if that is alright.

Okay I'll get to this point because I've been asked on it before

Full disclosure, I legitimately cannot find the source I used for the mist density. I know for a fact that I looked it up and didn't pull it out of my ass (let this be a lesson, this is why you link things from the first go at it), but for one reason or another, I can't find it anymore and it's genuinely annoying me that I can't find it. If it needs to be changed, I'll change it

 

[TheRustyOne]

It might be best to change it to a sourced value at least.

That way we can avoid any problems. If a proper source for it is found, it should be alright to add back.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Yeah I agree with Rusty

 

[CloverDragon03]

This article gives a density of 1.7 kg/meters^3

Should I use that instead?

 

[TheRustyOne]

I'm not an expert on mist, obviously.

But going by what I'm seeing/reading, that should be just fine to use. Looks like a proper source and I believe that fits for the mist Alucard creates.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'll update the blog, especially because some new info has shown me that all of the town Dover (a town in South England) was covered by this mist

Now it's a High 7-C feat, with this mist density...