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I mean thats what I was saying originally on this matter, MFTL+ could be argued if you start comparing DIO to other infinite speed users (if others exists, idk this wiki has too many verses for me to dive into for that.)
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Heaven Ascension DIO Speed CRT
- Thread starter VegetaFan756
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We don't have a MFTL+ calc, sorry dude
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The problem is that you see the RtZ working and not working in a black and white way, it's not that if it works then the whole stuff that happened to Diavolo needs to happen and if the RtZ doesn't work then nothing happens. The RtZ started to work, Giorno could feel that, but it could not keep on doing what it does because it got nulled.
It doesn't matter how the ability works, especially when you remain aware while it happens like Diavolo, imagine if while GER was telling him "What you experience now blah blah.." Diavolo just so happen to have and use Power Null to revert everything because his ability to do so>the RtZ. Heaven DIO could have done the same right after GER used its RtZ. Or, RtZ started before Heaven DIO's actions got reverted and then he nulled it, because he had the power to do so.
The start, which is pretty vague, was at Infinite speed, not the whole ability, therefore nothing needs to be resisted.
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Or, maybe, just maybe, it's because it quite literally doesn't function like you think it does Efi, this isn't open to interpretation, debate, or anything of the sort and I'm not about to argue this shit with you. It is black and white, because we know how it functions, we know what it does, we know how it behaves, we know the effects it induces upon activation, so forth and so on, we ******* know how this shit works Efi. What you're saying isn't true, it's factually and demonstrably false, your argument is based upon complete conjecture that relies on RTZ basically not working like we know it to.
You're essentially unironically saying "RTZ doesnt NEED to happen the way we see it function, it could function in a way that's never seen before", sorry Efi, but no, that's not an argument, that's you making shit up to fit a nonexistent argument. Worst part is, even if we take how RTZ is shown to work in EOH, even in gameplay itself, your argument still doesn't hold any weight because it demonstrably doesn't function in such a way where your conclusion and hypothesis is a possibility.
And fyi, if we take the other times we see RTZ used bar the Diavolo scene, it's even worse for your argument because every other time minus that instance is shown to instantaneous, from Point A to Point B with zero delay or time between them, as in, thing happening, RTZ effects it, instantly back at square 1.
That's not actually said. What's said is that Gio tried to use RTZ and was sure it activated but..., and that's it, he never clarified what the "but..." was, he isn't actually saying what you think he's saying, he could very well be saying "I tried to use RTZ, but it didn't come out or take effect" instead of "I used RTZ, and it started working but then suddenly stopped even though absolutely nothing indicates it began in the first place and isn't even consistent with how the ability is portrayed in the game itself", like **** we don't even hear the RTZ sfx, something tells me it never got going in the first place, it's never stated that it started to work but suddenly stopped, it may seem like semantics and grammatical nitpicking, but it's actually crucial and I'm gonna have to disagree with you here.
You no shit just said "it doesn't matter how it works", yes it does Efi, you can't just ignore how shit works because you don't like it. Diavolo remained aware for reasons unrelated to what's happening here. Do I need to point out times in both canons where RTZ makes it so the opposing force isn't cognizant?
Diavolo wouldn't be able to do so, because he wouldn't be able to take action
Diavolo no shit has a functional power null in regards to time skip, multiple guides claim that abilities and the like are rendered unusable while time is deleted, RTZ said lol **** you anyway. And if Diavolo just so happened to have a power null that could effect RTZ, he'd have to have used before, or after he was effected, not in the midst of being effected like you're claiming, because that isn't how RTZ works Efi.
Except he couldn't have, and you realize that "RTZ started but DIO wasn't reverted" is a paradoxical statement, if that was the case, well, RTZ didn't start then. Dio explicitly needs contact at that point, if RTZ so much as started, even slightly, even in the way you think it functions, DIO wouldn't of been able to do anything because it would've been to late.
This is without getting into how RTZ is portrayed in game either, or how it'd interact with the rest of the squad theyre there given you're going with the Diavolo scene instance of the ability, which I hope I don't have to explain why that isn't exactly possible.
I'm going to as blatant as I possibly can be Efi, this argument ain't gonna cut it, it's not gonna fly, instead of picking this hill to die on, you could just as easily argue something like "Dio powernulled GER right before he used it, and so nothing happened", there's a throwaway line here and there that could point to that, instead of trying to argue against the media itself and against how the shit works in general.
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It is vague, but I'm more likely to believe it never activated in the first place over DIO negating it after it took effect.
The former is at least possible and not demonstrably false.
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Damn. He played himself with that statement.
Seriously though if RtZ started and dio "wasnt reverted", you are practically saying DIO can exist in his current "square" while returning to 0, which is just, no, RtZ no workie like that.
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And Chariot wins an other argument as always
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He can take actions, just none against Giorno, hence Diavolo could move, hear and be aware. GER never faced someone who could take an action that could overpower its RtZ as DIO did.Diavolo wouldn't be able to do so, because he wouldn't be able to take action
Diavolo no shit has a functional power null in regards to time skip, multiple guides claim that abilities and the like are rendered unusable while time is deleted, RTZ said lol **** you anyway. And if Diavolo just so happened to have a power null that could effect RTZ, he'd have to have used before, or after he was effected, not in the midst of being effected like you're claiming, because that isn't how RTZ works Efi.
Time Erase too shouldn't allow actions in it after it's used but GER exists, similar to it the RtZ happened and the Reality Overwrite was done in it.
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He literally couldn't, he couldn't even move an inch, control his ability, or anything of the sort. Abilities be damned. He was aware because GER let him be, everyone else wasn't, and no, not because of time erase, GER's RTZ against Diavolo actually put everyone back a good chunk before Diavolo activated time skip, it put him like a second or two before he started his monologue in real time, and yet, Trish and Mista both weren't aware that anything happened, even though they lived through those events in real time, like **** Mista reloads his gun and takes aim twice, even though to him, he literally just did that and as outlined, going "well time skip happened of course they wouldn't be aware" doesn't work, because this was before time skip both times. And then we get into the other examples both in and out of game.
And sure, maybe RO is enough to break and through the inability to take action effect, but you know what isn't? DIO, even if RO was enough to somehow negate it, DIO would have to be able to use it in the first place for it to be able to do that, which he wouldn't be able to do
Also, you're completely ignoring that every single time that RTZ is used outside of Diavolo, there is no window of time between it starting and things being set to 0, in all cases but Diavolo, it is shown to be instantaneous, even in the game itself. There is no "well, DIO would of had time to activate RO and null RTZ after it started", because in 90% of cases, there is no timeframe, it's instant, bar the Diavolo scene, and we have to take into account the situation at play, the fact there was others there and so on. Which you aren't doing, and if we want to take the highly situational Diavolo instance where that was a lapse, it still wouldn't work because if there was so much as a ******* fraction of a second between Dio using RO and RTZ starting, it'd be to late, DIO would have been out of range, which at the time is direct physical contact. (Bar the whole "RTZ prevents abilities from being used against him", as in, used in the first place, not used but have zero effect, so if you're arguing RTZ was in effect, well...
Sure, but that isn't what happened here Efi, RTZ never began, it didn't activate in the first place. It's pretty ******* obvious it never got off the ground.
Maybe you're confused Efi, I'm not arguing DIO has infinite speed, I'm not arguing he negated it the exact literal moment it was used, I already said that I wouldn't mind be cautious in regards to this scene and tone it the **** back, but I am arguing against you reason as to why that can't be the case, because your argument is more impossible and blatantly not what happened even to the arguments for this. Like hell, there's other arguments you could pick to support your case, one's even I can go "yeah I see, that's fair", idk why you gotta pick the single argument that is never gonna work.
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"Time Erase too shouldn't allow actions in it after it's used but GER exists"
Hmm yes the blood drops are made of blood drops
Seriously though, Time erasure itself doesnt allow actions in it, the moment KC, diavolo to some extent, does something, time has to resume for it to take effect.
What it does is practically remove Diavolo from the same plane as everyone else while being in the same dimension, in a way. And if you watch that clip further on, or skip here , you can clearly see time erasure allowing movement within it just not from diavolo, along with that you can see here KC has to RESUME time to attack.
This can be seen as the opposite of GER RtZ to some degree, where Diavolo gets trapped in an infinite loop while GER (And anyone else effected by it in a non-infinite death loop way) carries on with their existence.
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Call everywhere to see over this.
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I mean, Efi obviously wants it to be downgraded, I don't even disagree with him if I'm being honest, we could do to be at least a bit conservative here.
The issue is the why he wants it downgraded doesn't check out, or well, not why but the reason as to why he gave, he needs to create a proper rebuttal and counter argument, which should be easily doable, but the argument he's sticking with is suspect and isn't actually possible within the context of the scene and working under the pretenses and functionality of the powers at hand. End goal he wants is plausible, but the reason given as to why it be like it is, isn't
No offense, but what are you even saying here?
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For.
*RTZ has infinite speed (the ability), DIO managed to somehow negate it before he was effected with his Stand's ability to overwrite reality.
*It would have been impossible for DIO to negate it after the fact, meaning he would of had to negate it before hand via power null or to have negated it at the exact same time, ergo, infinite speed due to negating it at equal speed.
Against.
*DIO could have been a tad faster on the draw and nulled him before he actively attempted to use RTZ, making it so when GER tried, nothing happened.
For either.
*Gio (The character who has this infinite speed ability) states he actually did try and RTZ DIO, but obviously nothing came of it. Though it's not clarified in detail, whether that's because DIO negated it when he used it simultaneously, DIO negated it the moment after he used it, or DIO nulled his ability to do so before thus when he tried to, nothing happened, isn't clarified. Gio merely says he's certain he used his ability but..., that "but..." isn't detailed and thus it could be a handful of options, whether that be he got it off and it was nulled or he tried to use it but nothing happened at all, is kinda unknown. Unfortunately semantics matter here.
Idk, to put it at it's most simple, as in, extremely simplified and skimming the exact details of each argument, because I'm essentially bastardizing both sides to make it easy to understand.
The real issue is less "he did or didn't", because we know for a fact DIO nulled RTZ, it's more the nuisances of the abilities themselves, how they'd interact, and when DIO actually negated it in regards to when GER used his RTZ/infinite speed ability.
Efi's argument is an impossibility, but that doesn't mean it's the only argument, I'm kinda neutral in regards to this and idc what it ends up as, at least, not at the moment, there's more important things to do, but I'd appreciate it if both sides argued based more on fact and concrete information rather than hypothetical shit without undermining the other's arguments, this can be civil.
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Arguments against is that DIO didn't even counter RtZ but just orecentr so it doesn't scale to its speed.
Arguments for is that in order to counter an ability at infinite speed you'd need infinite speed as well, especially if you weren't aware of such.
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1st literally implies infinite speed tho, especially when RtZ is automatic and not controlled from Giorno himself
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It's semi-automatic, especially in EOH, it can be manually controlled and is made note of.
That doesn't change anything ultimately on either side, we know Gio tried to use it.
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Not quite (plus RTZ is 4D on a universal scale in terms of potency, it reversed a universal time skip, and is treated as being able to take DIO down, at least, if given the chance, which it sadly didn't get).
But no, we do know DIO nullified RTZ, Gio stated he used his reality warping to basically nullify it, along with Tusk Act 4's infinite bullets, but he never clarified if he got RTZ off in the first place, it started, or if it never worked and nothing happened, he says "But..." and trails off and never clarifies the specifics.
The issue lies entirely on the when DIO nullified it, not if he did, as that's at the very least stated, unfortunately, this is just my take, but I don't think we can actually tell 100%.
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Okay, but wasn't Jotaro also boosted to universal scale in this game? Dio's stand could also simply have been so powerful that it made him resistant to hax from other stands, whereas Dio's physical body was far more limited.
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That's a good point. Star Platinum did smash his skull in right after, and SP at that point, while being in his prime and demonstrably above everyone for the most part, definitely aint infinite.
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Okay. Understood. So would a "possibly infinite" speed be our only real solution here?
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He was, at the very end though (like final boss and cutscene time), this scene takes place early on when they first meet him though at about 60%+ into it, Jotaro is basically just his Peak Part 3 self till the end.
DIO actually does have some resistance to hax via the corpse and his ability, but not in this instance, it's said later on that DIO did indeed use his ability to nullify Act 4 and RTZ, so we know it wasn't a matter of him being unaffected, he was unaffected because it was nullified, which just circles back to, when did DIO use it, was it the same time or was it a moment prior
Depends if people are ok with the coin toss or if they want to say that one option is more likely then the other to the point the alternative is simply just not likely to begin with.
For what it's worth though, I think DIO himself should very well not have any semblance of infinite scaling as he's demonstrably still within the realm of characters like Star Platinum as Efi pointed out, given seconds after the GER interaction, Star Platinum rolls up and punches him in the head and caves his skull in and DIO didn't exactly avoid it.
So at best we'd only be looking at DIO's Stand possibly scaling, which is, at least a less difficult pill to swallow but eh.
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I can go with likely/possibly infinite tbh, complete removal is a no-no from me.
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I have something to say against the last proposal
"Massively FTL, possibly Infinite" sounds wrong because the "Possibly" terms dosen't flit in the feat
the feat itself isn't vague, he countered rtz at his activation speed which is infinite or he countered that before, i do not think it's "mild". Likely instead should be better, since here we are talking about 2 possibilities
So I do think Likely is kinda better than possibly, therefore "Massively FTL, likely Infinite". also because most here thinks that Dio countered that when giorno actived rtz so..
Just wanted to say this
"Massively FTL, possibly Infinite" sounds wrong because the "Possibly" terms dosen't flit in the feat
Possibly
Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.the feat itself isn't vague, he countered rtz at his activation speed which is infinite or he countered that before, i do not think it's "mild". Likely instead should be better, since here we are talking about 2 possibilities
Likely
Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be favourable. This term should be used sparingly.So I do think Likely is kinda better than possibly, therefore "Massively FTL, likely Infinite". also because most here thinks that Dio countered that when giorno actived rtz so..
Just wanted to say this
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Anyone not responding to this?
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There seems to be some different opinions regarding if we should use likely or possibly. What do you think Chariot190?
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Either or.
The feat isn't vague, we know what happened, the issue lies entirely on when he did it, not if.
Which is where the unknown factor lies, if he did the thing at the right time, he's infinite, if he didn't, well then he's not.
It's a pretty clear cut case of he must've did then or prior with no-inbetween, but we don't know when he did it to confirm one or the other.
There's only two options though the action itself and technically the feat isn't vague at all.
Honestly either work, and have effectively the same meaning in regards to this situation. It's essentially just a buffer to go "it could've happened this way, or it may not have, we don't know for certain but both are likely" without undermining the other side and saying their interpretation or view is impossible.
tldr, likely is fine I guess.
The feat isn't vague, we know what happened, the issue lies entirely on when he did it, not if.
Which is where the unknown factor lies, if he did the thing at the right time, he's infinite, if he didn't, well then he's not.
It's a pretty clear cut case of he must've did then or prior with no-inbetween, but we don't know when he did it to confirm one or the other.
There's only two options though the action itself and technically the feat isn't vague at all.
Honestly either work, and have effectively the same meaning in regards to this situation. It's essentially just a buffer to go "it could've happened this way, or it may not have, we don't know for certain but both are likely" without undermining the other side and saying their interpretation or view is impossible.
tldr, likely is fine I guess.
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Applied the changes since it was the most agreed solution. Someone should close this.
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