Han Jee vs Arifureta characters in general, Battle for the Strongest List

[Expectro2000xxx]

This is for the strongest list and see what can happen. Speed equalized, SBA, Post-Schnee Hajime, SBA.

Round 1:
Hajime
vs
Han

Round 2:
Alva
vs
Han

 

[Arkenis]

could u put the tier pls. And what is Hajime's win cons?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

could u put the tier pls. And what is Hajime's win cons?

Post Schnee Hajime is tier 7-A to High 7-A, Han is 7-A up to High 7-A with 6-B summons and 5-B environmental destruction.

Would probably depend on what Han do, though I suppose that the main thing would be using spatial magic to create a isolation barrier when his instincts tell him about danger and then use other artifacts with ancient magic to kill Han. His fear and madness hax through his killing intent could also likely give him a win since it's quite potent and Han don't seem to resist those.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[DontTalkDT]

His fear and madness hax through his killing intent could also likely give him a win since it's quite potent and Han don't seem to resist those.

Gamer's Mind does actually make Han resist those.

What do artifacts with ancient magic do?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Gamer's Mind does actually make Han resist those.

What do artifacts with ancient magic do?

Hajime can affect people with resistance though, law and conceptual level resistances on top of that (at Hajime peak in this key his bloodlust even created a type 1 concept), he is also able to affect AIs (Mother and G10 for example), mindless machines (heaven soldiers for example), beings without emotions (Apostles) and abstract beings made with the conception of fear and negative emotions (many types of apparitions and ghosts for example), so I don't think that his Gamer's Mind can resist it when it don't even have listed fear manip as a resistance.

Read the standard equipment. Many things since most of Hajime haxs come mainly from his artifacts but to list some of the most prominent would be: Cross Bits that are drones able to isolate space with spatial magic and do spatial explosions (at this key Hajime was able to use the essence of ancient magic so instead of spatial manip is more correct to call it boundary manip since the concept of boundaries is controled to do things), Chakrams that work as both weapons and portals to redirect things (the Chakrams have Hajime stealth so they are really hard to detect even to people of his level), Pile Bunker that destroy anything it touch with spatial vibrations, Bolas that fix things on space, keys that can teleport him to where he want, the Compass of Eternal Paths that conceptually tell the location of what he desire (the compass also work when the user desire abstract things instead of physical locations), Hour Crystal that change the time around it to be slower than in the outside, Deny All Existences which is a chain or bullet (not sure if the use of this key cover when it was a chain or just when recreated as a bullet, this is quite important because as a chain Hajime had it around him all the times as both a defense and attack) that erase the information of things touched in a conceptual type 1 level, several no named objects that he can create at the moment that are infused with ancient magic (like swords that cut space or gravity spheres, and really any object with ancient magic, he is able to create them instantly and in great numbers, the artifacts of his next key were also created in a similar way off-screen when the time of the last scan).

There is also his ability to conceptually analyze and process abstract information with evolution magic, but that he don't really need an artifact for that (though they can be made to improve the process or futher increase his calculation ability).

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hajime can affect people with resistance though, law and conceptual level resistances on top of that (at Hajime peak in this key his bloodlust even created a type 1 concept), he is also able to affect AIs (Mother and G10 for example), mindless machines (heaven soldiers for example), beings without emotions (Apostles) and abstract beings made with the conception of fear and negative emotions (many types of apparitions and ghosts for example), so I don't think that his Gamer's Mind can resist it when it don't even have listed fear manip as a resistance.

He has resistance to mind manip listed, which would include those subtypes. And his is based on above baseline law and causality manipulation, so it isn't that easy to overcome.

Read the standard equipment. Many things since most of Hajime haxs come mainly from his artifacts but to list some of the most prominent would be: Cross Bits that are drones able to isolate space with spatial magic and do spatial explosions (at this key Hajime was able to use the essence of ancient magic so instead of spatial manip is more correct to call it boundary manip since the concept of boundaries is controled to do things), Chakrams that work as both weapons and portals to redirect things (the Chakrams have Hajime stealth so they are really hard to detect even to people of his level), Pile Bunker that destroy anything it touch with spatial vibrations, Bolas that fix things on space, keys that can teleport him to where he want, the Compass of Eternal Paths that conceptually tell the location of what he desire (the compass also work when the user desire abstract things instead of physical locations), Hour Crystal that change the time around it to be slower than in the outside, Deny All Existences which is a chain or bullet (not sure if the use of this key cover when it was a chain or just when recreated as a bullet, this is quite important because as a chain Hajime had it around him all the times as both a defense and attack) that erase the information of things touched in a conceptual type 1 level, several no named objects that he can create at the moment that are infused with ancient magic (like swords that cut space or gravity spheres, and really any object with ancient magic, he is able to create them instantly and in great numbers, the artifacts of his next key were also created in a similar way off-screen when the time of the last scan).

There is also his ability to conceptually analyze and process abstract information with evolution magic, but that he don't really need an artifact for that (though they can be made to improve the process or futher increase his calculation ability).

Thought the concept stuff needs prep? At least the profile makes it sound like that.

Anyway, Han can ignore lots of those due to immortality and can probably null a few. What does Hajime do after Han made himself 10 billion times faster?

 

[pfate17]

He has resistance to mind manip listed, which would include those subtypes. And his is based on above baseline law and causality manipulation, so it isn't that easy to overcome.


Thought the concept stuff needs prep? At least the profile makes it sound like that.

Anyway, Han can ignore lots of those due to immortality and can probably null a few. What does Hajime do after Han made himself 10 billion times faster?

What is the greatest feat of speed after Han became 10 billion times faster?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

He has resistance to mind manip listed, which would include those subtypes. And his is based on above baseline law and causality manipulation, so it isn't that easy to overcome.


Thought the concept stuff needs prep? At least the profile makes it sound like that.

Anyway, Han can ignore lots of those due to immortality and can probably null a few. What does Hajime do after Han made himself 10 billion times faster?

Not necessarily, as talked various times in other threads to the strongest list resist one general power don't mean resist all the possible applications of it unless proved, and literally all the profiles of the verse (including the low tier ones) already resist several layers of mind manip and they get absolutely ****** by Hajime killing intent unless they are monsters on his level (not in the power sense but in the sense of willpower). Basic ancient magic already is above the fundamental laws of the universe and manipulate fundamental abstract concepts, most profiles of the verse (and characters without profiles) already have ancient magic level mental defenses and Hajime killing intent is still perfectly able to affect them, so not only Hajime have affected people with stronger mental resistance than Han but he also have feats of it be quite potent (in the effects it cause) and have affected beings that normally fear manip don't affect do to their physiology (the explanation in the previous post, can also provide scans of those if wanted), so unless Han have feats of resist fear manip at least comparable to the one of Hajime then he can't resist it.

Depend, if Hajime want to create a completely new type 1 concept then he would need a strong desire, which is something that normally people accomplish by focusing strongly in one thing for some time but that can also be accomplished in a moment without any prep time if the user is feeling a strong emotion or want something too much (for example the Deny All Existences of Hajime was created in a moment when Ehit stealed Yue body and the world lost any worth at his eyes, or when the Liberators accidentally created a concept to pierce a conceptual barrier do to their wish to free the world from Ehit tyranny, the Liberators even showed when drunk that in the heat of the moment is possible to create various concepts at the same time since they created three simultaneously). If is instead just use a type 1 concept already created and imbued in an artifact then Hajimes can use it whenever he want (the compass for example is something that he use almost all the time since he got it), it also seems to be relatively easy to recreate a concept magic that he used in the past (like for example when no one saw him he just needed to remember the moment he lost Yue to create the ee bullet, or redo an inferior version of the Crystal Key which is concept magic that can reach any desired place regardless of anything). And type 2 concept can be used at any moment with any ancient magic.

Not sure of how much efective his immortality would be against be unable to move do to be spatial(boundary) manip or gravity manip (since Hajime have the ls advantage) and if it could be able to save him if Hajime decide to use spirit magic to destroy his soul (that would only need him to imbue ancient magic on his artifacts), but Hajime can actually counter hard the immortality by using a combo of compass + tp to reach the sword and destroy it. About the big speed amp, Hajime can actually sense when Han is going to use it do to his instincts and use ancient magic to isolate himself or go to other place to be safe, in the case of the former he would just need to use artifacts to nuke the surroundings and in the case of the latter he can calmly develop a counter (which he can with his intelligence and arsenal), regardless of either option his evolution magic to analyze the everything of Han will also help him to counter him, arguably another option is that he mix both the evolution magic analysis and creation magic to copy Han powers since Oscar was able to do that he go the analytical power and Oscar is already below this key Hajime in ability as Synergist.

To confirm, how was is in speed unequal Han with his amps? Also, he can affect conceptual beings? Asking because I have in mind the rest of characters of Arifureta that share tier with him to see how many could be able to take his spot (in principle most of the Liberators probably counter several of his things from what I can see, Yue undoubtly stomp since she can use almost all the hax of the verse with a thought, and Alva likely also confortably win as Yue though if Han is unable to interact with him would be more one-sided).

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

following

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[pfate17]

Bump

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[DontTalkDT]

You should probably ask one of Han's supporters to comment if you want this concluded. (I don't actually support the series I just casually read it.)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

You should probably ask one of Han's supporters to comment if you want this concluded. (I don't actually support the series I just casually read it.)

You know some active supporter of him?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Someone from those listed on the verse page maybe? Don't really know if any of the active ones of those are interested in vs-debates, though.
Ricsi isn't around much recently, but probably the most knowledgable.

 

[Lynieryz]

@Ricsi-viragosi is a god if he is still active it would be a good choice.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

@Ricsi-viragosi is a god if he is still active it would be a good choice.

Already contacted him, he seems to still be activate so I suppose he could give input.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Hajime can affect people with resistance though

I mean, what level? Han's resistance is absolute, explicitly beyond simple resistance other people get, and is enforced by the world/Gaia warping causality to say 'yes, it does work, deal with it', as with all other "game mechanics".

law and conceptual level resistances on top of that (at Hajime peak in this key his bloodlust even created a type 1 concept),

I mean... I don't see how someone resisting laws and conceptual manipulation relates to "I'm so angry you become afraid". Creating a type 1 concept is... not something that can be really put in potency? Like, people being slightly frustrated for a while can spawn demons in The Gamer, but I wouldn't use that to say their frustration is exceptional compared to anyone else.

beings without emotions (Apostles) and abstract beings made with the conception of fear and negative emotions (many types of apparitions and ghosts for example)

Lacking emotions and being made to be afraid is neat, in the same way soulhaxing someone without a soul is, but not very relevant here. And being made out of negative emotion doesn't really matter against mind manipulation.

Cross Bits that are drones able to isolate space with spatial magic and do spatial explosions (at this key Hajime was able to use the essence of ancient magic so instead of spatial manip is more correct to call it boundary manip since the concept of boundaries is controled to do things),

Han has spatial manipulation plenty too, and if push comes to shove he can just make a hole in space-time to just not occupy any space.
You'll have to actually put feats on what the boundary manipulation did rather than just namedropping a title for it.

Chakrams that work as both weapons and portals to redirect things (the Chakrams have Hajime stealth so they are really hard to detect even to people of his level)

What does people on his level mean, exactly? Han can get a full blueprint of everything that exists in a massive prison-pocket reality when he needed it, so non-magical stealth isn't really important. He can also bypass resistance to info analysis, so that's relevant too.

Pile Bunker that destroy anything it touch with spatial vibrations

He himself specifically doesn't get anything but HP damage against spatial cutting, so it is unlikely to work on him. His golems might die to it, though.

Bolas that fix things on space

He can teleport out, shatter space, or make a hole out of space-time to erase the point in space he is affixed to.

keys that can teleport him to where he want

Han can make anti-teleportation areas.

the Compass of Eternal Paths that conceptually tell the location of what he desire (the compass also work when the user desire abstract things instead of physical locations)

What does 'conceptually tell him' even mean? I feel you're slapping the name to give a pretty standard ability more weight here...

Regardless, if Han decides to hide, it will be in his personal pocket reality, so I'm not sure how much that is relevant here.

Hour Crystal that change the time around it to be slower than in the outside,

By how much? Han can dilate his perception of time by (at least) 20-fold (automatically casts this when entering combat), and a few minutes to charge up (while being able to fight and cast other spells) is enough for him to do this ten billion-fold.

Deny All Existences which is a chain or bullet (not sure if the use of this key cover when it was a chain or just when recreated as a bullet, this is quite important because as a chain Hajime had it around him all the times as both a defense and attack) that erase the information of things touched in a conceptual type 1 level

That would probably work if it hits.

several no named objects that he can create at the moment that are infused with ancient magic (like swords that cut space or gravity spheres, and really any object with ancient magic, he is able to create them instantly and in great numbers, the artifacts of his next key were also created in a similar way off-screen when the time of the last scan).

Well, unless there are any notable powers they come with, they're effectively unknown factors here.

What is the greatest feat of speed after Han became 10 billion times faster?

Perceived time as stopped, given he was ten billion times faster than everyone else. Mind, he also saw someone that he was equal with as being immobile while he and an ally chatted when he amplified his perception of time by "hundreds of times".

But given speed is equal, he'd just be that many times faster than Hajime unless he also boosts his speed.

so unless Han have feats of resist fear manip at least comparable to the one of Hajime then he can't resist it.

I mean, you said a lot, but could you qualify what that actually means in potency? How many layers does he overcome, for example? I mean, you can't really apply 'how many people does he affect' to bloodlust, but what feats do the mind hax he uses have besides fancy descriptions?

Han's own standard mental barrier could withstand thousands combining their own to try and overwhelm him, and his Gamer's Mind is explicitly beyond that in every way.

Not sure of how much efective his immortality would be against be unable to move do to be spatial(boundary) manip or gravity manip (since Hajime have the ls advantage) and if it could be able to save him if Hajime decide to use spirit magic to destroy his soul (that would only need him to imbue ancient magic on his artifacts)

Han can counter spatial stuff with what I mentioned above (breaking space, making a hole in reality where space doesn't exist, teleporting away, etc.), gravity manipulation is also something that's not too relevant given teleportation on thought (plus, both have Class G LF, unless the gravity magic specifically affected someone with the conditional class T), and it is stated that his soul cannot be dispersed despite that being the standard counter to immortals.

About the big speed amp, Hajime can actually sense when Han is going to use it

He passively has his standard amps go off when he enters combat (so, at least x20 to possibly hundreds of times faster right away).

how was is in speed unequal Han with his amps?

FTL base combat speed, twenty~hundreds of times ftl passively, over ten billion with Time Dominion.

Though I have to say, Hajime really abuses multiplier stacking, you know? Just about every key is "x times faster than before" or some such. It's generally not liked to do that, which is why Han isn't scaled to be 8000 times speed of light from "faster than his previous time dilated self^3".



I don't think Hajime has anything to stop being erased from existence himself? In that case, in a speed-equal match, he needs some way to become much faster immediately, or he'll just get ****** by Han that way.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

PS.: Newest chapter has him activate a 1000 times time acceleration, and stacks a further 1000 times thought speed acceleration on top of it, on thought. I'm waiting for the whole war thing to end before I update the profile, but that's a thing to note still.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Will be busy some hours so probably not going to be able to answer until night.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I don't know much about Han but:

Hajime already made a game that forcebly BFR people into it, the game doesn't HP (you can die from falling from high place or taking lethal injuries ) and force rules laws restriction (no hax including CM) on people who can use and resist CM2 casually , even there stats and abilities are lowered to normal human level , plus the dude can hack reality itself.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I mean, what level? Han's resistance is absolute, explicitly beyond simple resistance other people get, and is enforced by the world/Gaia warping causality to say 'yes, it does work, deal with it', as with all other "game mechanics".

Law and conceptual. Ancient magic is explicitly stated several times to be above the laws of the world and universe (it also showed to work in other worlds/universes in which mana and magic don't even exist), along with state that they are the manipulation of concepts.

Using ancient magic the characters create defenses that protect them against everything beside ancient magic of at least comparable level, they also can develop resistances to ancient magic by pure willpower (in Arifureta willpower is canonically op, to the point that at peak can create type 1 concepts and resist them). Said defenses/resistances have also showed to work with the same effect against different power systems from other worlds/universes, including against apparitions power which is also conceptual in nature.

I mean... I don't see how someone resisting laws and conceptual manipulation relates to "I'm so angry you become afraid". Creating a type 1 concept is... not something that can be really put in potency? Like, people being slightly frustrated for a while can spawn demons in The Gamer, but I wouldn't use that to say their frustration is exceptional compared to anyone else.

I said that because he have affected with his fear manip people with ancient magic defenses (especifically spirit magic defenses, since things like mind and emphatic protection fall under that). I would say is indeed a potency showing in Hajime case, because it show that his emotions/will directly affect reality in a big way.

Lacking emotions and being made to be afraid is neat, in the same way soulhaxing someone without a soul is, but not very relevant here. And being made out of negative emotion doesn't really matter against mind manipulation.

I would consider a potency feat affect the emotions of a being made from emotions, but could be just me.

Han has spatial manipulation plenty too, and if push comes to shove he can just make a hole in space-time to just not occupy any space.
You'll have to actually put feats on what the boundary manipulation did rather than just namedropping a title for it.

In the case of Hajime he reached the root of spatial magic (which is one of the seven types of ancient magic), which as result made him become able to use boundary manipulation via manipulate the concept of boundaries, what this mean in a practical sense is that because he is manipulating a concept higher than space normal spatial magic/spatial manip don't really affect his boundary magic, there is a case for example of an opponent piercing his barriers (after get boundary manip) and he stated how to do that would mean that the other side was also able to manipulate boundaries (which was true).

What does people on his level mean, exactly? Han can get a full blueprint of everything that exists in a massive prison-pocket reality when he needed it, so non-magical stealth isn't really important. He can also bypass resistance to info analysis, so that's relevant too.

In verse there exist various beings able to hide their presence and emotions/will, that is common, however after certain point the stealth of said beings include hide other things like their heat, energy (which is different to their presence), smell, they become invisible, etc, that level of stealth begin to happen pretty early in the true Oscar Labyrinth which have 100 floors, and in each sucessive floor the monsters stealth become far superior than the stealth of previous level monsters, Hajime completed Oscar Labyrinth at vol 1 by both improving his own stealth and detection abilities on each floor, and after complete it he also spend two other months training to futher improve it (to the point that even Yue, who was someone at his level who also completed all the floors, could perceive him despite use her all), he also at vol 2 showed that even when using his stealth in front of a group of the race with the best detection skills in the world they can't sense him. Through the rest of the story he continue to improve his stealth with training and combat so he can kill his enemies more effectively.

Regarding info analysis, Hajime info analysis come from master evolution magic which manipulate the concept of abstract information, so doubt that Han could resist it, especially since in-verse the info analysis only showed to be really resisted by type 1 concepts.

He can teleport out, shatter space, or make a hole out of space-time to erase the point in space he is affixed to.

It actually prevent teleportation, it also have resistance against things that disintegrate space, and do to that be also affected by the boundary manip it should in general resist spatial manip.

Han can make anti-teleportation areas.

The boundary manip especifically bypass the anti-teleportation means of spatial magic (hence why it can only be countered with more boundary manip.

What does 'conceptually tell him' even mean? I feel you're slapping the name to give a pretty standard ability more weight here...

Regardless, if Han decides to hide, it will be in his personal pocket reality, so I'm not sure how much that is relevant here.

That part is a bit harder to explain, there was a moment where they tried asking/desiring certain things to prove the limits of the compass, they asked some abstract things like for example 'where are the closest masochists' and the compass told the user about Tio (who is a know ********* that was present in the group) and also Altina (someone who at the moment wasn't a ********* and only became one in the future), and there was also another case later when he asked the location of the most precious thing of someone and the compass told it. So in this case it mean that the compass can tell the location of abstract things (like weakness for example in a more practical combat sense), even things that still haven't happened.

The compass work against pocket dimensions and other world/universes since it especifically ignore any distance and just work via concepts, so it would work.

By how much? Han can dilate his perception of time by (at least) 20-fold (automatically casts this when entering combat), and a few minutes to charge up (while being able to fight and cast other spells) is enough for him to do this ten billion-fold.

Admitedly not that much, Hajime just dilate the time around him to 1:10 with the outside.

Well, unless there are any notable powers they come with, they're effectively unknown factors here.

Well, it mean that he would be able to create any of the previous artifacts he have create to himself or others, and probably even the artifacts of his next key (as they were effectively made in that same scene, just off-screen).

I mean, you said a lot, but could you qualify what that actually means in potency? How many layers does he overcome, for example? I mean, you can't really apply 'how many people does he affect' to bloodlust, but what feats do the mind hax he uses have besides fancy descriptions?

Han's own standard mental barrier could withstand thousands combining their own to try and overwhelm him, and his Gamer's Mind is explicitly beyond that in every way.

If you want specific layers then I guess it would be more than several millions? In last crt it was decided to use numbers of people affected as layers in the case of haxs like mind/soul manip, so based on that that would be more or less Hajime mind/soul manip potency since he can fear hax people able to resist current Ehit Divine Edict who several thousands of years in the past already performed the feat of mind manip the entire humanity.

Han can counter spatial stuff with what I mentioned above (breaking space, making a hole in reality where space doesn't exist, teleporting away, etc.), gravity manipulation is also something that's not too relevant given teleportation on thought (plus, both have Class G LF, unless the gravity magic specifically affected someone with the conditional class T), and it is stated that his soul cannot be dispersed despite that being the standard counter to immortals.

I already mentioned above how the boundary manip can't be countered or affected by spatial manip. The gravity manip would scale to 3.30e+11kg in base and 1.65e+12kg with amps. His soul have recovered before from conceptual attacks? Because depending of the potency of the spirit magic attack people able to return after destruction with their soul can't do it (except for a certain character, the first hero, who have a broken soul immortality, but he is a sort of exception because he was also able to create type 1 concepts with his will). He could alternatively also seal the soul or control it (since in the past he already created artifacts able to do so he would now be able to replicate the same thing instantly).

He passively has his standard amps go off when he enters combat (so, at least x20 to possibly hundreds of times faster right away).

Would it also activate when they are 4km apart before even confirm each other location?

FTL base combat speed, twenty~hundreds of times ftl passively, over ten billion with Time Dominion.

Though I have to say, Hajime really abuses multiplier stacking, you know? Just about every key is "x times faster than before" or some such. It's generally not liked to do that, which is why Han isn't scaled to be 8000 times speed of light from "faster than his previous time dilated self^3".

In Hajime case in base he is 512.28xMFTL, while with amps he can reach 30736.8xMFTL+.

I mean, he objetively scale above his previous amped state in base, so that's why, is not a simple "superior than before" since we for example don't do that with his last key (he is above his previous key, yes, but to an unknow extent so we don't make assumptions and just scale him to the same value).

I don't think Hajime has anything to stop being erased from existence himself? In that case, in a speed-equal match, he needs some way to become much faster immediately, or he'll just get ****** by Han that way.

His first amp is practically one of his first moves and he easily use the other amps when needed, they only need a thought (well, technically not even a thought because his body just automatically act before he can think when needed).

Hajime himself don't have a way from resurrect in this key, however others characters from the verse with the same tier can (Laus and likely most of the others spirit magic users since they don't have Hajime limitation of be unable to use most of his haxs without artifacts, Meiru restore herself via time manip, and Alva since his physical form is just a vessel and his true self is an type 1 abstract being who likely can't die as long there exist his conception [Hajime likely was only able to perma kill him and Ehit do to the deny all existence]), so part of that is why I asked how well Han deal against certain stuff, because while Hajime is the protagonist and is undoubtly op there are other op characters at this key with stuff that Han could find harder to deal, like for example Meiru slowing the time around her to normal human walking speed, Naiz infinite corridor with boundary manip, Yue having the ability to do most of the verse haxs with a thought, Alva being the same as Yue but with his abstract existence, and things like that.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

If you want specific layers then I guess it would be more than several millions? In last crt it was decided to use numbers of people affected as layers in the case of haxs like mind/soul manip, so based on that that would be more or less Hajime mind/soul manip potency since he can fear hax people able to resist current Ehit Divine Edict who several thousands of years in the past already performed the feat of mind manip the entire humanity.

It is actually billions, He can manipulate the thoughts and memories of the whole planet with ease, He also was manipulating the internet with subliminal messages. YUE can do it

If they considered the need to prepare in case Hajime sought help or the worst case where an unexpected situation occurred and they were forced to fight, forcefully creating a gate and returning to the kingdom couldn’t really be said as a good move. They were also thinking that Hajime would return soon.

「……It can’t be helped. In that case Yue-san style “Neura○zer Magic!” will flash.」

「So Yue can do memory falsification on your own……」

「Kaorin. Even before that Nagumo-kun was able to do something like giving suggestion through internet you know?」

「Ah, now that you mentioned it before this Hajime-san was going to make something like artificial satellite type “Neura○zer Flash! ~Deliver a Fresh Memory to the Whole World!~” or something, but Kaa-sama scolded him ‘Don’t be rash!’.」

According to Shia, it seemed that Sumire-okaasan was acting like a proper mother to Hajime whose trigger finger to pull the trigger of memory falsification artifact was abnormally light. As expected it seemed that doing memory falsification so casually to the whole world wouldn’t be allowed.

 

[Lynieryz]

If you want specific layers then I guess it would be more than several millions? In last crt it was decided to use numbers of people affected as layers in the case of haxs like mind/soul manip, so based on that that would be more or less Hajime mind/soul manip potency since he can fear hax people able to resist current Ehit Divine Edict who several thousands of years in the past already performed the feat of mind manip the entire humanity.

as far as i can remember since the last CRT of mind/soul manip (a general CRT for how it is treated on the wiki) it was decided that numbers of people affected is just range and to qualify as potency the work has to demonstrate that and affecting millions of people who for example have 2 layers of resistance it would still be range (and 2 layers) unless the work explicitly demonstrates that each affected person adds one layer for the hax.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Law and conceptual. Ancient magic is explicitly stated several times to be above the laws of the world and universe (it also showed to work in other worlds/universes in which mana and magic don't even exist), along with state that they are the manipulation of concepts.

Alright. Now quantify that. What's the standard mind magic that it's so far above off?

If there's no feats beyond posturing about how Transcendental the magic is, I don't really think it would get past someone with actual widescale feats to resist that stuff.

I would say is indeed a potency showing in Hajime case, because it show that his emotions/will directly affect reality in a big way.

No, it is just an ability he has. Plenty of verses have humans create God's, universes, etc. by believing it, or feeling things, etc.

Doesn't really translate to mindhax potency. It's like saying someone's fire is so powerful it can burn magic, so it will definitely get past somebody who can swim in plasma.

what this mean in a practical sense is that because he is manipulating a concept higher than space normal spatial magic/spatial manip don't really affect his boundary magic

That takes space crush off the table, though I'm doubtful making a hole in reality wouldn't be possible because of this alone.

after certain point the stealth of said beings include hide other things like their heat, energy (which is different to their presence), smell, they become invisible, etc

So he scales a lot above this. Han had that level of stealth by season 4, so I'm a bit iffy on how well it would work if all we get beyond this is "it's better than the previous", but that can be debated, I guess.

Regarding info analysis, Hajime info analysis come from master evolution magic which manipulate the concept of abstract information, so doubt that Han could resist it, especially since in-verse the info analysis only showed to be really resisted by type 1 concepts.

I feel you're throwing type 1 concept this, type 1 concept that, around far too much. I'm not going to say it's wrong, but it comes across as more vs debate talk rather than what I'd expect an actual explaination for the stuff in-universe to match.

Is it stated it can only be resisted by something at that level? Or is it shown to be so?

it also have resistance against things that disintegrate space,

Define disintegrate space. Is it make a hole in time-space to 'somewhere' where nothing exists?

asked some abstract things like for example 'where are the closest masochists'

...How is that abstract? Like, that's the opposite of abstract. He is asking for the nearest person with a type of personality.

It predicting someone would become a protagonist can be precognition, which is neat though Han resists, or it could be the ability recognizing already existing traits that will lead to masochism.

But that's more of a weakness, if it gives such non-intuitive answers.

and there was also another case later when he asked the location of the most precious thing of someone and the compass told it.

Again, that doesn't feel special. He asks for the position of what someone valued the most.

So in this case it mean that the compass can tell the location of abstract things

That's not a type 1 concept telling him something. That's the skill having the nuance.

The compass work against pocket dimensions and other world/universes since it especifically ignore any distance and just work via concepts, so it would work.

That is not how it works. Let me reiterate, just saying something does what it does through/in spite of "concepts" isn't a blank check.

Case-in-point, has it ever done what you're claiming. Because a pocket dimension isn't at a distance. It's not ten meters, it is not a billion meters, it is not infinite meters away, and there is no direction one can move to reach it.

If he doesn't have feat for getting into stuff like that, then he can't do that.

In last crt it was decided to use numbers of people affected as layers in the case of haxs like mind/soul manip

Well, first of all, you can't count the numbers affected by blood Lust because its an area of effect. It's like a hypnosis video, it affects everyone that is exposed to it equally.

For another, what backward logic would make each person count as a layer?

That said, Han's Gamer Mind only has statements of getting that high, not feats (the Church of Masks could get all humans into their Hivemind if it weren't for Gaia kicking their teeth in if they tried, and Gaia had to revoke his Gamer's Mind to make him be affected, he was immune before that happened).

The gravity manip would scale to 3.30e+11kg in base and 1.65e+12kg with amps.

That's not that far beyond Han, and he has his own gravity magic.

His soul have recovered before from conceptual attacks?

You'd need to say what that actually means in-universe, but he specifically resists having his soul scattered, it isn't a matter of regenerating the soul once it was damaged, just making it a static thing that can't be Mutated. Doesn't have feats beyond scaling above others, however.

Would it also activate when they are 4km apart before even confirm each other location?

Yes, so long as Han perceives being in a fighting situation.

as far as i can remember since the last CRT of mind/soul manip (a general CRT for how it is treated on the wiki) it was decided that numbers of people affected is just range and to qualify as potency the work has to demonstrate that and affecting millions of people who for example have 2 layers of resistance it would still be range (and 2 layers) unless the work explicitly demonstrates that each affected person adds one layer for the hax.

Fair enough if this is true, in that case, rather than the whole affecting the planet, Han would have his mindhax (and immunity to it) be much greater than the average due to power scaling it, and then it got a X10 multiplier in potency in season 4. He supposedly put effort into further refining his skill with it, and he can will stuff that x6 his mind altering stuff into existence.


I'm not sure of the other characters mentioned, though I wouldn't be surprised if some would be able to kill Han. However, in this case, I'm pretty sure his overwhelming speed is kind of a killer advantage.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

as far as i can remember since the last CRT of mind/soul manip (a general CRT for how it is treated on the wiki) it was decided that numbers of people affected is just range and to qualify as potency the work has to demonstrate that and affecting millions of people who for example have 2 layers of resistance it would still be range (and 2 layers) unless the work explicitly demonstrates that each affected person adds one layer for the hax.

I'm talking about the last Arifureta crt that was a few months ago. There I proposed a hax layers scaling via characters A > character B (like how is generally treated currently in the wiki), however various disagreed with that scaling so at the end I proposed the scaling based on numbers of people affected (as how it was in general before) because the series itself demostrate that bigger numbers mean bigger potency, and in the end it was decided to use the numbers scaling.

Alright. Now quantify that. What's the standard mind magic that it's so far above off?

If there's no feats beyond posturing about how Transcendental the magic is, I don't really think it would get past someone with actual widescale feats to resist that stuff.

Not sure what you try to say in this part, you mean quantify the mind manip of normal magic? The greatest mind manip normal magic would be the one from Apostles who have the ability to brainwash people with their eyes and turn them in fanatics more than happy to die and kill all their loved ones, can affect people with supernatural willpower that grant them resistance to mind manip, and can affect entire cities at once, their mind manip also scale above the church dark magic, which scale above masters dark magic users, who scale above other dark magic users.

No, it is just an ability he has. Plenty of verses have humans create God's, universes, etc. by believing it, or feeling things, etc.

Doesn't really translate to mindhax potency. It's like saying someone's fire is so powerful it can burn magic, so it will definitely get past somebody who can swim in plasma.

Is quite different with those case since 99% of the time those verses don't affect with their will reality in a way that create type 1 concepts.

The fire example is also quite faulty because fire is something physical that exist in reality and that we can as a matter of fact measure in pretty easy way.

I feel you're throwing type 1 concept this, type 1 concept that, around far too much. I'm not going to say it's wrong, but it comes across as more vs debate talk rather than what I'd expect an actual explaination for the stuff in-universe to match.

Is it stated it can only be resisted by something at that level? Or is it shown to be so?

I guess my bad there, is just that since personally I at least consider it as something big and important, and have saw others think like that to, that I tend to mention it when is something related to it.

Show, after the author added the info analysis to what evolution magic can do the things that showed to resist the info analysis of Lyutillis (the one who mastered evolution magic and the one with the highest info analysis of the Liberators) in two ocassions where type 1 concepts (the first one was a barrier with the concept to defend against everything and the second one was with Ehit Sanctuary). Though some time after the comment I remembered an instance where the info analysis was resisted without type 1 concepts, and that was against the crap-ton of anti ancient magic defensive measures with disintegration magic that Ehit put on Apostles magic so they can't be analyzed, to quote the words of Hajime about that thing "like wrapping a tresure chest in so many chains you can't even see the actual chest anymore, then slapping a dozen padlock on the chains".

Define disintegrate space. Is it make a hole in time-space to 'somewhere' where nothing exists?

It just disintegrate space, spatial barriers for example get disintegrated when touched by it, be it that the spatial barriers have a supernatural or scientific origin (there is a world where science reached the point of manipulate space without any supernatural mean and the disintegration worked like always). The part about space with nothing sound like void attacks from spatial magic.

...How is that abstract? Like, that's the opposite of abstract. He is asking for the nearest person with a type of personality.

It predicting someone would become a protagonist can be precognition, which is neat though Han resists, or it could be the ability recognizing already existing traits that will lead to masochism.

But that's more of a weakness, if it gives such non-intuitive answers.

Personalities are abstract though, same with what is considered precious to someone (and even more what is considered most precious), those things are subjetive, hence why it was sort of noteworthy. The main point of the compass is that use his concept to ignore all distance and obstacles to locate what the user want.

That is not how it works. Let me reiterate, just saying something does what it does through/in spite of "concepts" isn't a blank check.

Case-in-point, has it ever done what you're claiming. Because a pocket dimension isn't at a distance. It's not ten meters, it is not a billion meters, it is not infinite meters away, and there is no direction one can move to reach it.

If he doesn't have feat for getting into stuff like that, then he can't do that.

Here are some quotes about the compass:

“That object is called the Compass of Eternal Paths. The concept magic spell its imbued with—” —Points its owner toward whatever they desire.

“Huh!?”

Upon hearing those words, Hajime’s heart started to pound. It felt as though his body was on fire. All sound vanished, and those words repeated themselves over and over inside his head.

“Points its owner toward whatever they desire.” Does that mean...

“If you wish for something, the compass will show you where that something may be found. Whether that something is a missing person, a hidden object... or even a different world.” Vol 8

He pulled the Compass of Eternal Paths out of his pocket. Unlike his Gate Keys, which could be used to open portals to the respective keyholes they connected to, the Crystal Key did exactly what its concept magic had designed it for. It opened a door leading to the user’s desired destination. But in order to do that, the user needed to have an accurate mental image of their destination, as well as a good grasp of the physical or metaphysical distance to it. But that meant so long as Hajime had the compass as well, he could have the key take him anywhere. Vol 10

All the ancient magics had been given the names they had because those names best represented how that magic interfaced with people.

Incidentally, the Compass of Eternal Paths used spirit magic to read the users wishes, then used spatial magic to pinpoint the location of what they desired, and finally used evolution magic to process all of that information and display it accurately. None of those three things were possible with the more well-known applications of ancient magic. Vol 10

It was originally created to work against the Sanctuary of Ehit, which is a group of dozens pocket dimensions, since otherwise they would be unable to locate it do to be created with concept magic, and the compass indeed showed to work against it when it was created and Hajime also showed to be able to navigate throught the pocket dimensions with it, and in the whole after stories Hajime use it to travel to whatever place.

Well, first of all, you can't count the numbers affected by blood Lust because its an area of effect. It's like a hypnosis video, it affects everyone that is exposed to it equally.

For another, what backward logic would make each person count as a layer?

That said, Han's Gamer Mind only has statements of getting that high, not feats (the Church of Masks could get all humans into their Hivemind if it weren't for Gaia kicking their teeth in if they tried, and Gaia had to revoke his Gamer's Mind to make him be affected, he was immune before that happened).

You got it wrong. I'm not counting the number of people that Hajime affected with his killing intent, I'm counting the mental resistance of the people that Hajime affected with it. The group of characters he showed to affect with his killing intent included characters able to resist Ehit Divine Edict, and Ehit showed the feat of mind control all humanity several thousands of years before when he was weaker than his current self, so by affecting a character with said level of resistance he scale.

That's not that far beyond Han, and he has his own gravity magic.

To what value scale Han btw? I tried seraching and didn't found any concrete number beside scaling to giant golems. Based on the fact that the gravity manip of Hajime come directly from manipulate the concept of gravity I would suppose that Han can't overcome it with his own gravity manip, though even without that Hajime have used his gravity manip against other characters with gravity manip.

You'd need to say what that actually means in-universe, but he specifically resists having his soul scattered, it isn't a matter of regenerating the soul once it was damaged, just making it a static thing that can't be Mutated. Doesn't have feats beyond scaling above others, however.

It mean affect the other side concepts. So it isn't that he can regenerate his soul but instead he just resist soul destruction? Because in that case I don't see why Hajime or other of the 7-A Arifureta characters couldn't affect his soul with their ancient magic (especially their spirit magic).

Fair enough if this is true, in that case, rather than the whole affecting the planet, Han would have his mindhax (and immunity to it) be much greater than the average due to power scaling it, and then it got a X10 multiplier in potency in season 4. He supposedly put effort into further refining his skill with it, and he can will stuff that x6 his mind altering stuff into existence.

Sorry but I don't understand what you said in this part.

I'm not sure of the other characters mentioned, though I wouldn't be surprised if some would be able to kill Han. However, in this case, I'm pretty sure his overwhelming speed is kind of a killer advantage.

At the moment of make the match I was actually conscious that Hajime at this key would have it hard against Han, though I still believe he can defeat him, but ended doing the match with Hajime mainly because he is the prota and do to both names beginning with Han. Objetively speaking other characters like Alva, Yue, Meiru, Laus and maybe some others have considerably better chances do to their skillset.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I won't make too massive of a wall of text since we seem to mostly agree on the outcome? For clarifications, however..:

To what value scale Han btw?

I can't find the blog, though he scales to an 3 km hand made of snow, which... is rather hard to make an accurate calc of? But making a really half-assed one... a quick google tells me a hand is about 356.5 cc, being 18 cm long. A 3 km hand is 16666.6667 times longer, and thus has 4.62962966e12 times the volume of a normal hand, making the volume 1.65046297e15 cc.

Compact Snow weighs about 0.41 grams per cc, making the hand's total weight 676689817700 kilograms (6.8e+11)

Sorry but I don't understand what you said in this part.

If we scale potency to how many people something can affect, Han can be scaled to the Church of Masks being potentially planetary in scope, and has a 1000% potency boost on top with other skills, and another 600% with an item he can equip.

At the moment of make the match I was actually conscious that Hajime at this key would have it hard against Han, though I still believe he can defeat him, but ended doing the match with Hajime mainly because he is the prota and do to both names beginning with Han. Objetively speaking other characters like Alva, Yue, Meiru, Laus and maybe some others have considerably better chances do to their skillset.

Possibly. Here though, I think we can agree Han's speed boosts are a bit too overwhelming, combined with his void manipulation?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

If we scale potency to how many people something can affect, Han can be scaled to the Church of Masks being potentially planetary in scope, and has a 1000% potency boost on top with other skills, and another 600% with an item he can equip.

Ehit feat of controlling Tortus humanity was casually done (he literally just did that for entertainment to see the Liberators suffering) several thousands of years in the past, and because Ehit (and Alva btw) have a gimmick that their existence become conceptually stronger (to the point that somethat that at the time of the Liberators could had completely destroyed him up to his very concept currently can't even scratch him), I would personally put the Arifureta characters mind and soul hax potency above since there is also additionally the argument of how their hax work at an more abstract/deeper level of directly affecting concepts.

Possibly. Here though, I think we can agree Han's speed boosts are a bit too overwhelming, combined with his void manipulation?

The void manip isn't a problem, the speed amp it is however though I can see Hajime surviving it (not an easy fight because that is dangerous but I still Hajime can win). Since this is at the end for the strongest list should I change Hajime for the other characters with likely better affinity against Han? Like Alva, Yue, Meiru, Laus or others.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

So, added Alvaheit to see how Han face him.

To give a summary of Alva, he is an abstract being based on conception who can't die as long his true self is destroyed, while his physical body is just a vessel that he can regenerate at will with time manip. He also possess an infinite amount of energy like the Apostles because his power come from Ehit.

Alva is able to use all the seven ancient magics with a thought, and he have reached the true essence of each of them (so he can use the boundary manip mentioned previously for example). The ancient magic that he tend to use more however is spirit magic, especially Divine Edict which is a word based magic that inprint the user will on reality itself, with Divine Edict the user can completely supress the opponent powers, erase them (this apparently can extend to pocket realities since it could destroy the dimensional storages of Hajime party), see illusions of death too realistic that affect their senses and feeling of pain, recall their worst nightmares, etc. He also use other thought based spirit magic spells to for example read people memories and affect them. The potency of his spirit magic should also be in the planetary range, plus the conceptual nature of it.

Alva is also able to manipulate the Sanctuary, a group of several pocket dimensions (their exact number is unknow, but they seem to be above the dozen dimensions, their size also go from the size of a city to a limitless space). The Sanctuary is something created with a type 1 concept, so in verse is completely immune to all seven ancient magics and to affect it in any way is needed another type 1 concept. Inside the Sanctuary live dozen of millions monsters (including Low 6-B ones, around a hundred or so of them) each with their own powers, what seem to be a similar amount of Apostles, and Ehit himself since this is actually his home.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

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