Hagoromo vs Madara

[The_real_cal_howard]

So...I was wondering after watching a Swagkage video as I actually like his stuff (keep in mind that I pretty much know NOTHING about Naruto in the long run), and who would win between peak Madara and Hagoromo?

 

[AstralKing7]

Hag should probably stump iirc but not because of AP but because of his hax and experience without senjutsu and the rinnegan and creation of all things

 

[Lord_Ahmed]

Madara should win. But in this page

Hag Stomps via AP and hax

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Feat Wise and via logic: Madara via holding his own against 2 people who are well above 1/2 of Hagoromo (Hag's chakra isn't the only power up Naruto and Sasuke have, such as EMS and Kurama). While he was losing, we don't actually know who would win since Madara is betrayed by Zetsu the second he decides to get serious.

Also worth noting is that Madara has vastly superior fighting skills.


How this wiki sees it: Hag via AP (somehow) and hax

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Neitger kurama nor mhs are even comparable to Hagoromo.

Also, hag at his strongest, so he is the juubi jinchuriki on top of the power he gave naruto and sasuke.

He's also oh-so-much more haxed.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Hagoromo even has the original complete Juubi, as opposed to Madara who's still missing portions of the Bijuu. Too bad we didn't get to see if he had a unique ability with his Rinne-Sharingan.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Hag via experience, more Juubi, and pretty much everything short of cqc.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Madara.

 

[KLOL506]

Sigurd, you need to give better reasoning than that.

Anyway, Hags FRA.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Madara actually has feats,abilities,and offensive abilities.

Hagoromo's era had virtually no real offensive abilities,we don't even know how he fights.

All he has is moon creation that he can't do alone,and abilities with no context or even if it's combat applicable.

Then there is the fact Madara has regen and immortal.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Sigurd

He can do it by himself since this is the Sage with the Ten Tails inside him.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Sigurd
He can do it by himself since this is the Sage with the Ten Tails inside him.

Since when can he do it himself if it's a joint jutsu?

 

[AstralKing7]

Madaras feats are scale below Hag tho. Madara arguably= Naruto himself without Sasuke. Naruto and Sasuke=Hag without Juubi

Hag with Juubi>>Hag that gave Naruto and Sasuke power. Madara scales to hag that didn't have the juubi

 

[LordGriffin1000]

It's not a joint move for this version off him. He literally gave Naruto and Sasuke each a separate seal to do it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

So this is spirit Hagoromo?

Because i'm pretty sure the Yin seal belonged to his Brother at 1st and Yang himself, and the only version who has both is Ghost version, which has done nothing of note except send spirits back to pure land and bestow power.

Or am I wrong?

 

[AstralKing7]

Juubi Hag should have also had the Seals since he used yin and ant yang to literally split the juubi bruh

 

[BMWFanboy]

Madara is Hagoromo's equal atleast once he sprouted the Rinne-Sharingan. Unless you're one of those guys who to this day argue that Hagoromo knew Kaguya was gonna come back and chose to give Naruto n Sasuke 25% of the power needed to take her down. Only problem will be Yin-Yang Manipulation since it's reality manipulation, and Madara only showed the ability to use it's watered down variant Izanagi, then again he likely has superior skills and Limbo so, hmmm

 

[KLOL506]

Boi, do I see a necro

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Boi, do I see a necro

Necro's are no more boyo.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No to all of that.

There is no at least there. Naruto and Sasuke were bodying Madara, and you have absolutely no base to assume that he is stronger than them with the Sharinnegan.

But let's say Madara is as srong as Naruto and Sasuke combined. That is still not equal to Hagoromo at full power, unless you think he was left with litirally zero power after empowering them.

Now on top of that, you have to count the fact that Hagoromo has the Juubi as well in his peak.

The fact that Hagoromo has the complete Juubi to himself, while Madara an incomplete one, doesn't help your case.


There is absolutely nothing stopping Hagoromo from sealing or haxing Madara to death all the while beating him wih higher AP.

 

[BMWFanboy]

First, the only time they were 'bodying' him was when he had one Rinnegan. Show me ONE scan where he's even bothered by them after he comes back from Kamui. Because they deadass use the same attacks that rekt him before on the Limbo clone and can't do shit to it

Next, on what basis are you implying Hagoromo is stronger than Naruto n Sasuke combined? (in stats, not hax). Unless you're saying Hagoromo is an idiot who chose to give them lesser power than he has when even he needed Hamura by his side and months of fighting to beat Kags

Jubi? So? Did he have the Shinju? Did he have the Rinne-Sharingan?

Saying "Complete Jubi!" doesn't win him the battle either

Yeah, I already said he can seal and/or use Yin Yang to win, but the problem is, 1.He doesn't have higher AP and 2. For sealing, he actually needs to touch Madara

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

He never fought them with two eyes. But saying that he suddenly became so strong that them combined together would merely be equal to him is an extreme stretch with nothing to back it up.

He is made out of chakra. If he gave up all of his power he would have ceased to exist. He still had enough power to him to astral project himself to the hokage and such, that automatically makes him stronger.

Yes..? You do know... that he absorbed those right? The Shinju is the Juubi. Like, he had absorbed everything Kaguya and the tree had to offer.

Saying that Madara is stronger with absolutely zero proof helps much less. Madara has all of his power come from absorbing a lesser version of the being Hags got.

Prove that. Madara's AP as a whole comes from absorbing the Juubi, with it being too insignificant to count in this battle without it. Hagoromo in his base could keep up a prolonged battle with Kaguya with his brother, and is twice as strong as Naruto. He on top of that absorbed his mother, and had decades to control his powers.


How would Madara even begin to kill Hagoromo? At difference of Hags, he can't do anything to permanently hurt him, and his Limbo clones would simply get slapped away over and over.

 

[BMWFanboy]

He never fought them with two eyes? Cool so we're just ignoring how the very same attacks that fondled one eyed Madara in 674 couldn't even budge his Limbo clone in 676? And the fact that his Limbo clones were easily able to keep up with Naruto no problem whereas it was getting harmed and easily beaten in 674? And that he made 4 once he got back the second Rinnegan, and that Dojutsu release full power only in conjunction? And that Jutsu don't increase in potency until the user get's stronger as well? Awful lot of assumptions you're making and lore you're disregarding.

Notice how I'm not saying that Madara with both eyes is stronger than N&S combined but you strawmanned me anyway.

Coming back to Hagoromo, he did cease to exist when he gave N&S his power, he only came back from Madara's lower body half, guess we're gonna ignore that too. So yeah, it doesn't make him stronger. By this logic since Asura n Indra Chakra hovered around Naruto n Sasuke till they made their peace they're stronger than Naruto n Sasuke.

Absorbed what Kaguya had to offer? Wot. He's nowhere close to Kaguya if that's what you're implying, he couldn't even awaken a Rinne-Sharingan

Except he doesn't, the Jubi plus the Shinju, that's exactly what Hagoromo had, and he was close to Hagoromo by Hagoromo's own word BEFORE he absorbed the Shinju or got the second Rinnegan, which like it or not boosted his power considerably. The same Chdori sword that oneshot him earlier didn't even scratch his Limbo. Nor did he run from Naruto and Sasuke like he did before. Saying Hagoromo is stronger cus "He lived even after he gave Naruto and Sasuke an amp!" and "He had the full Ten Tails!" doesn't help when Has said, "He's obtained Ten Tails power and is getting close to me" before Madara got his other Rinnegan or absorbed the Shinju.


No, it doesn't, Obito's did, and Madara when he just absorbed the Jubi was far greater than that. Hagoromo's battle took MONTHS against Kaguya, Naruto and Sasuke's too an hour or so, nor is he twice as strong as either, where's the proof of anything you're even saying lol? Absorbed his mother? Yeah sure he absorbed his mother who he sent his brother to look after on the moon lmao, decades to control his powers? Sure he has good control over his powers, how good is he with them in combat?

WHat difference have you even shown except plain Ad Hoc, literally 90% of the stuff you're implying Hagoromo to be capable of is assumption, Limbo clones would get slapped how? You've just made baseless claims while massively ignoring lore and context and statements while also not providing a shred of evidence for your side.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I meant with the sharinnegan. With the rinnegan he was equal to them, and that's with him having far more skill then either did. The fact that even with his sharingan out he couzld only toe to toe with Naruto isn't helping his case here.

You are saying that Hagoromo isn't stronger. That automatically means that you think he is stronger than Naruto and Sasuke combined while he got his new pair of eyes.

That is such a horribnle false equivalency. The indra and asura part I'll just ignore since it has nothing to do with this. And Hagoromo came out of Madara's lower half because of his sthick with stalking his kid's reincarnations.

He didn't fully absorb her, obviously. There is still no way you can argue Madara got more power out of the Juubi than Hagoromo did after living with it and controlling it for decades.

This was already discussed. He said Madara was comparable when he had one eye, which is blatantly false, and was taken to mean that he has the rinnegan. Madara's Juubi is incomplete, so not exactly what he had either. When you puit soemthing into "" it's supposed to be a quote. And again, by what logic is Madara stronger than Naruto and Sasuke combined?

Obito did what? You left out enough space to make me think you are answering the last part, but that isn't so obviously. Months? Where do they say months in the manga? I swear I only remembered that with the rest of the anime filler. Plus, it might have taken longer becasue he was a few decades younger than his prime, no? Naruto and Sasuke got their power from Hagoromo, they were thousands of times weaker prior, and their power combined is what Hagoromo as a spirit gave away.


Baseless claims? You are saying that because Madara kept up with Naruto and Sasuke, he will be comparable to a guy who gave them both the power they had while said guy was far past his prime. You litirally gave zero ways for Madara o even win here, he doesn't have anything to kill Hagoromo even if he had enough of a power advantage to kill him with a backhand.

 

[BMWFanboy]

Far more skill? Mmmkay, maybe that's why they were able to equal his skill p easily. Skill doesn't even come into the equation here, and he didn't fight Naruto with the Rinne-Sharingan so your point is invalid either way.


No, it doesn't, that only means you THINK Hagoromo is stronger is stronger than Naruto n Sasuke


It has everything to do with this, you read the manga and came up with your own random interpretation of it and are trying to pass it off as a fact, that's not how it works. Hagoromo coming out of Madara doesn't help his case, because he clearly couldn't appear by himself and needed the portion of a weaker Madara to re-appear. Try actually reading the manga instead of coming up with your own Ad Hoc.


...are you actually reading what you're typing? This is the 3rd or 4th time you've come up with a bs claim that's suggested by absolutely nothing in the manga. He didn't absorb ANYTHING from her. Where is EVER stated you can "get more power out of the Jübi by living with it for decades"? Drop the chapter number. Till then this is as invalid as "Hags is stronger than N&S combined because he didn't disappear!" (Even tho he did and had to use Madara's body to re-appear)


He never said he was comparable. There's a difference between being close and being comparable. A moon/small planet leveler is close to a Planet leveler, that's not equal to being comparable. The 1000's x difference clearly disagrees. "Taken to mean he has the Rinnegan" taken by who exactly, by another headcanon interpretation? When was it ever mentioned he meant the Rinnegan? If he did he would've said that about Edo Madara who had both Rinnegan or the Madara who sprouted them before dying. He clearly did not mean that, as he clearly specified "He has acquired Ten Tails' power and is getting close to me, and is also trying to acquire my mother's power". The Ten Tail's power isn't Rinnegan. Incomplete? Show me a quantifiable differennce between the one he absorbed and the one Hagoromo did. And Madara took the Shinju as well which should make up for any difference that can be assumed. And when did I say Madara > N&S combined? Can you stop sprouting strawmans rising from your headcanon?


Read again then Power combined? Hagoromo gave them two sets of his power, to Naruto he gave his Senjutsu and to Sasuke he gave Rinnegan. That's two different types of power it doesn't mean he gave them like half of the strength he had, that doesn't make sense from a lore or logical standpoint. At best you can their abilities combined is what Hags gave em away, not their strength.

Being below his prime doesn't even mean anything considering he still says after a 1000 years that his mom is the strongest being he knows. And that mom became "exponentially stronger and faster" near the end of their fight, Hags already knew she was gonna come back, why would he give them each a fourth of the power needed to take her down? And how can you tell how much stronger Hags became after that? Because he still considered her the strongest centuries after he gained his supposed prime.


"Gave them both their power" means what exactly? Because so far the only thing it's mean is that he gave them their Six Paths power and disappeared. You didn't prove he was stronger, you didn't prove he was weaker, you just made up a bunch of claims off the top of your head and tried to say "No these are facts!", doesn't work that way.

And again, I already said Hags can use Yin Yang to win since that's far easier to perform than say Limbo or a physical battle, so idk why you're even on that constantly.

 

[AstralKing7]

What's going on here

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Yes Hagaromo

 

[KingEzran]

It's as easy as this. Madara uses his chakra chains to restrain him, then sucks the soul out of his body with the human path. Madara high mid dif.

 

[BMWFanboy]

Because Hagoromo can't counter that right? Hagoromo can literally imagine a being equal to Madara and give him life with Yin Yang Release, then watch as the two battle it out, and bop Madara when he's distracted

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

what?

 

[Phoenixssj3]

Sorry for late comment, but everyone talks about Hagoromo's exeprience...but I doubt Hagoromo has fought as much as Madara during his life (even if it's longer), moreover, Madara lived in an era where Ninjutsu was very well developped over generations, he has spent his whole life dealing and looking for the most dangerous techniques

Well, maybe it looks odd, but to me they seem equal, Hag is overall stronger, but Madara seems smarter and more dangerous

But that is taking account of Hagoromo alone, before he becomes the jinkuuri of the full Juubi (too much AP like Kaguya otherwise), what do you guys think about a Madara vs a Hagoromo without Juubi (like the Hagoromo talking to Naruto/Sasuke or before his death)?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

He would still be able to use his creation jutsu, which is just spammable Izanagi and Izanami, so Madara can't do a lot to win, at which point he could just seal him.

 

[Phoenixssj3]

Can't Madara can do some creation Jutsu too? The 2 Meteors in the war were almost instantly created, and Madara escaped lots of times from these kind of situation (reversed edo tensei, escaped death, Ichibi's sealing and sealing made for bijuus+) he can for example exchange his place with a limbo clone (and counter-attack), he also can use Izanagi (I don't know if he has to sacrifice an eye to do it with the EMS/Rinnengan/Sharinenngan however)

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

He has to give up his eyes to do that. The meteors were made through gravity like Nagato's, and none of those have anything to do with either Izanagi or Izamai except his death, which he gave up an eye for. Being able to warp reality to undo everything your enemy did to you just outweights anything Madara can do.

 

[Phoenixssj3]

What really proves that Madara used Gravity like Nagato during the war? It appeared the instant he used the technique, usually you need to take huge partes of earth and it takes some time, nobody has seen it, how can it be this technique?

Yes he mostly escaped these with AP and using his limbo clones, but can the Rikoudo do all this at will just by thinking? Kaguya didn't use much of this power otherwise Naruto and Sasuke wouldn't have the slightest chance. The Rikudo needed help and had huge trouble sealing Kaguya, why would it be so much easier with Madara? Especially with his limbo clones?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

If you mean the meteors... creating earth is something a fodder can do. The amount also doesn't matter here. Every ninja can use chakra to create an element with training, they however cannot warp reality to reduce any negative effects on them to illusions.

Much like every uchiha with the knowledge, as long as he willingly activates it he'll be immortal. Madara can do it too, but sacrificing his eyes is going to be a horrible bargain. Kaguya didn't have the ability, Hagoromo is the one that invented them, which his son Indra then ripped of.

They didn't have huge trouble, it just took long. They were practically ungarmed after it, and being immortal is not going to let you seal others easier. It will give you all the chances you need however.

 

[Phoenixssj3]

If you mean the meteors... creating earth is something a fodder can do. The amount also doesn't matter here. Every ninja can use chakra to create an element with training, they however cannot warp reality to reduce any negative effects on them to illusions.

But usually Madara and Nagato makes huge holes of earth doing it and it takes some time, I may be wrong or maybe it was PIS, but Madara made them appeared the second he summoned them.


But they were 2 and like you said, I doubt the franchise was meant to mean that it was easy Kaguya was presented to be a huge threat even to Hag and his brother, and it probably was a dangerous battle with Kaguya's Hax attacks (Hag may be able to unmake them, but they're fast, unexpected and launched for days). It's also her main attacks, which could explain why they weren't much harmed. I don't believe that Hagoromo could've beat her alone, for example, nothing indacates that, at least that's what I think


But most importantly...why did it took such a long time if Hag can manipulate everything, he should've done it quite fastly in that case

Another small question: You meant that Indra ripped it off with inazagi, right?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Which is no better than any other ninja creating any of the other elements. It shows he has a lot of chakra, which means nothing to the discussion at hand.

You can't assume that. And them being fast doesn't mean much, Sasuke was crushing Danzo fast, the dude still came back from death. And hagoromo beat his brother and then they fought her, regardless there is no reason why he couldn't seal her.

Because he can't. Don't you know how Izanami works? It makes him immortal, not omnipotent.

Yes, Izanagi is an offshoot of it.

 

[Phoenixssj3]

Still, I doubt Madara was able to do this before the Rinnengan, and earth creation alone doesn't justify the instant apparition of meteors


He has beaten his Brother before fighting her? I don't remember that


Izinagi make him immortal you mean

Ok, he can nullify everything like a Danzo with infinite eyes, that answers my question more or less

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Why, and why? All he did was make rock, but a lot of it. Beyond requiring a lot of chakra, there is nothging special about it.

It might be anime only.

Yes, that's what he can do, jut without throwing out his eyes.