Gyarados Attack Potency

[FTW395]

@Cal in one of your previous posts you used the analogy of a kid wrecking his room in a tantrum to state that his Tantrum won't necessarily stop. Though this analogy can work against what you're trying to prove. Because a kid that wrecks his room in a tantrum won't be scaled to being Room Level, he'll just stay a 10-B kid. The same analogy can be used for the Gyarados for supposedly destroying the city.

Also Pokemon should NEVER be scaled from other Pokemon, unless those Pokemon have a lore behind them or if they're an evolution.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Also Pokemon should NEVER be scaled from other Pokemon, unless those Pokemon have a lore behind them or if they're an evolution.

You do realize that a Pikachu, The Regi's, The Swords of Justice, The Starters, The UB's and other Pokemon are scaled to other Pokemon right? So yeah we do scale Pokemon to others when it works....

 

[SomebodyData]

What Dragon said is correct.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. For example, we have Dhelmise>Wailord>Wishiwashi>Gyarados because of Pokedex entries

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, if we assume that it takes up to a month to destroy a city, that puts Gyarados under most Pokemon who are building. That puts Gyarados under a Pikachu. A month is a long time. A city is big, but not that big for Pokémon that one shot buildings. So assuming this month thing is ridiculous.

 

[FTW395]

@Dragon if those Pokemon have a lore behind them that supports their scaling then sure, but as used in Cal's example we shouldn't just put Gyarados in a higher tier just because Pikachu a pokemon supposedly weaker than him is in that tier. That way of scaling just doesn't work with Pokemon.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Point being is of almost every other barely evolved Pokémon can destroy a city over a month, then there would be no necessity to say that Gyarados of all 800 pokemon can.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Dragon if those Pokemon have a lore behind them that supports their scaling then sure, but as used in Cal's example we shouldn't just put Gyarados in a higher just because Pikachu a pokemon supposedly weaker than him is in that tier. That way of scaling just doesn't work with Pokemon.

But they don't have lore. This is just scaling via fights and such....

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cal the rage for a month is likely for something much bigger than a city, probably a mountain range or mountain (someone should get that checked)

From what I see, worse case scenario for Gyarados is that it takes him less than 12 hours to destroy a city.

 

[FTW395]

@Dragon then I'm just using the term lore wrong aha. What I mean is that we shouldn't put Gyarados on a higher tier than Pikachu just because he's supposedly stronger. Same goes for the Dragonair calc supposedly scaling too Gyarados aswell.

@Cal you're implying that there has to be some sort of feat as to why they said such a thing about Gyarados and not other Pokemon. Though imo it's used to show how violent Gyarados' are not necesarilly to say how strong they are.

 

[RadicalMrR]

SD the example you used ,Vermillion city, has a 7-A Pokemon in it ,Tyranitar.

Most town/city in Pokemon have gym leaders who all hold back depending on how many badges the player has but in reality some are comparable to the Elite four with there best Pokemon, this only helps solidify that Gyarados is at least in the tier 7 range.

 

[SomebodyData]

Vermillion City has a Tyranitar?

A Gen 1 City with a Gen 2 Pokemon?

Keyword here is most, and some earlier gym leaders really are significantly weaker than the Elite Four, actually, where did you get the idea that they scale to the Elite Four canonically?

(Unless you're talking about people like Misty and Brock in HGSS which had 3 entire years of extra training?)

 

[Dark649]

SD the example you used ,Vermillion city, has a 7-A Pokemon in it ,Tyranitar.

There are no Tyranitar in the grass or used by trainers in Vermillion city.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Oops I confused Vermillion with Pewter, anyways all gym leaders can have may teams they use depending on the the amount of badges the player has, I know they have fixed teams in the game but there is an immense amount of evidence they have different teams depending on the trainer they fight.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well

A- We can't accept theories

B- How would they even know how powerful the trainer is?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Cheren outright says that he doesn't use his normal team when doing Gym Leader stuff. This isn't a theory.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Its not a theory, in Gen 4 how does Rorack have level 66 pokemon by the end of the game? And if it is there is only 1 team how are any new trainers gonna beat them? Just look at what origins tells us "Brock is shown to have many Pokémon, and selects Geodude and Onix when Red confirms that he has no Badges. This implies that all Gym Leaders have Pokémon of varying strengths in reserve in order to keep each challenge a fair fight." At the end of the day this makes sense and is implied by gamefreak in every single Pokemon media even the regular anime.

The badges are a good gauge of power.

 

[SomebodyData]

Cheren is a former fully fledged trainer who beat all the gym leaders so of course he doesn't use his normal team. As far as I know, most gym leaders didn't take down the rest of them, did they?

To further go against your theory, Lt. Surge mentions in his battle how his Pokemon fought alongside him with in a war. His personal team is his gym team.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It isn't treated as "You're too OP so you can't use your team". Cheren treats it like it's a normal thing for Gym Leaders to do. Heck, there are so many Trainers that beats the Gym Leaders, to think that they are that much weaker is really weird.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Radical not sure if using separate continuities to support your arguement helps. Although if you want to use that argument, then do I have to bring in Pokemon Adv, where their gym pokemon is the pokemon they constantly use?

Also, using badges as a gauge of power would be great and all, had it not been for the fact that unless the gym leaders have x-ray vision, they shouldn't be able to see them.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Which team, hes got like 12 different Pokemon and by this point in the series his personal team is impossible to beat for someone with 2 badges.

Also were derailing the thread, we can continue this some other time.

 

[SomebodyData]

It isn't treated as "You're too OP so you can't use your team". Cheren treats it like it's a normal thing for Gym Leaders to do. Heck, there are so many Trainers that beats the Gym Leaders, to think that they are that much weaker is really weird.

However, your suggestion makes it that the Elite Four are basically just gym leader level enemies, in which then the "some of the strongest trainers in the region" thing is basically a lie.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Radical his team in Gen 1 and Gen 3. (Ie his first team)

True, let's leave this argument aside. Actually, where were we before?

 

[LordXcano]

Size has to do with it because you brought up the fact that hyper beams barely exceed head width. So a Pokémon smaller than Gyarados doing a town bust would disprove that.

Okay, well even if Gyarados' blast was some 10x bigger than that it'd still only encompass a multi-city block area. And that's assuming any random Gyarados is stronger than something from the Elite Four.

"Also, if we assume that it takes up to a month to destroy a city, that puts Gyarados under most Pokemon who are building. That puts Gyarados under a Pikachu. A month is a long time. A city is big, but not that big for Pokémon that one shot buildings. So assuming this month thing is ridiculous."

I never said it takes a month to destroy a city, just that it takes a while. Given that many entries say it destroys cities during a rage, and many other entries say this can range from a day to a month it seems logical to conclude that Gyarados is not one-shotting every city it wanders into.

"the rage for a month is likely for something much bigger than a city, probably a mountain range or mountain (someone should get that checked)"

No entries support this. Plus a mountain is about the same size as a city.

"Though imo it's used to show how violent Gyarados' are not necesarilly to say how strong they are."

This is a good point seeing as a lot of entries emphasize Gyarados' anger issues and how it is a violent creature.

@SD It is confirmed that leaders hold back. However.

Why are we scaling Gyarados to modern cities? All the examples of it destroying cities are from ancient times, and I doubt trainers back them were as strong as trainers now. Given that you never hear anything about Gyarados destroying a city in the present day I'd assume it's because the people there are able to stop it from doing that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"Though imo it's used to show how violent Gyarados' are not necesarilly to say how strong they are."

This is a good point seeing as a lot of entries emphasize Gyarados' anger issues and how it is a violent creature.

So where are my city destruction quotes on Primape? Or Hydregion, a brutal Pokemon stated to destroy anything in its path, but nothing about city destruction. Or Midnight Lycanroc?

 

[RadicalMrR]

Why are we scaling Gyarados to modern cities? All the examples of it destroying cities are from ancient times, and I doubt trainers back them were as strong as trainers now. Given that you never hear anything about Gyarados destroying a city in the present day I'd assume it's because the people there are able to stop it from doing that.

Even Pokemon like Magnemite are 8-A so the the trainers dont have to do much to them to tier 7 plus, this is at least a town/city's worth of people with pokemon so no matter how you slice it Gyarados is fighting an uphill battle and winning consistently enough for it to be recorded.

 

[SomebodyData]

If it is confirmed that they hold back, then I actually have to go with Cal's side in that case.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

A lot of what the opposition is suggesting is mostly assumptions. I've thought of several examples where the same logic would sound just as fallacious.

Cal can go faster than light.

"We don't know how long it took to accelerate to that speed"

Cal shows up on earth, and the earth will be destroyed.

"How will he destroy it? Will he have an army for it? How many shots will it take to bust it?

People say that Cal can travel through time.

"He probably built a time machine"

 

[LordXcano]

A lot of what the opposition is suggesting is mostly assumptions. I've thought of several examples where the same logic would sound just as fallacious.
Cal can go faster than light.

"We don't know how long it took to accelerate to that speed"

Cal shows up on earth, and the earth will be destroyed.

"How will he destroy it? Will he have an army for it? How many shots will it take to bust it?

People say that Cal can travel through time.

"He probably built a time machine"

Funny you say this because these are all legitimate arguments.

"Even Pokemon like Magnemite are 8-A so the the trainers dont have to do much to them to tier 7 plus, this is at least a town/city's worth of people with pokemon so no matter how you slice it Gyarados is fighting an uphill battle and winning consistently enough for it to be recorded."

Recorded in ancient times. On top of that though, fighting 100 Building level people doesn't make someone City Block level, and even more on top of that I thought it was accepted a while ago that Pokedex entries weren't indicative of every Pokemo but rather the peak of that Pokemon's ability.

"So where are my city destruction quotes on Primape? Or Hydregion, a brutal Pokemon stated to destroy anything in its path, but nothing about city destruction. Or Midnight Lycanroc?"

If I say "Vegeta is violent, during his rampages he can destroy a solar system" and then say "A terrorist is violent" that doesn't make them any less true.

 

[PencilSharpener1]

I think Gyarados attack potency can be tied to his pokedex entry due to this

"In the distant past, it was somewhat stronger than the horribly weak descendants that exist today."

-Pokemon LeafGreen Magikarp's Pokedex entry

Given that Magikarp powers grows ten folds after evolving to Gyarados in modern times, does this mean that Gyarados in the ancient times really are 10 times stronger then the modern gyarados? This could reinforce his lore on destroying towns which may grant him city/big town level.

I didn't read the whole discussion (aka rant) so I'm not sure if somebody already brought this up before.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I just think that the Town level feat is ok.


Is already pretty lowball

So even counting on time, it would still Town level.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just a reminder to add in, even if Gyrados or any pokemon in general under legendaries is given a tier via a dex entry, that only applies to wild everyday ones

Specifically trained stronger ones can still be much much more powerful