Gremmy Thoumeaux and Guenael Lee Upgrades

[ImmortalDread]

We don't have any shreds of evidence that Gremmy can erase him, this is why “possibly” rating came from, since nothing suggests it is not possible for him that he can't erase his own creation, he erased his imagination-based constructs such as Lee which have broken abilities such as “Vanishing”.

Nothing submits that his own creation surpassed him in any aspect, either.

 

[Hellscream]

We don't have any shreds of evidence that Gremmy can erase him, this is why “possibly” rating came from, since nothing suggests it is not possible for him that he can't erase his own creation, he erased his imagination-based constructs such as Lee which have broken abilities such as Vanishing.

Nothing suggests that his own creation surpassed him in any aspect.

Yes, that's what i mean.

 

[AKUTO123]

Agree a

 

[Reio35]

We don't have any shreds of evidence that Gremmy can erase him, this is why “possibly” rating came from, since nothing suggests it is not possible for him that he can't erase his own creation, he erased his imagination-based constructs such as Lee which have broken abilities such as “Vanishing”.

Nothing submits that his own creation surpassed him in any aspect, either.

If gremmy can create lee from nothing/imagination then he should logical be able to turn him back into nothing by no longer imagining him so EE is fine

We also see gremmy erase a rock kenpachi through at him which wasn't apart of his imagination so i don't think it's limited to his creations

 

[Deceived3596]

Dread doesn't disagree with EE......

She currently doesn't even disagree with anything in the OP as of this moment.

That post you responded to didn't even having anything to do with EE, she was talking about his Regeneration Negation.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If gremmy can create lee from nothing/imagination then he should logical be able to turn him back into nothing by no longer imagining him so EE is fine

Actually you are wrong, he created him due to “reality wraping which is on informational level”. This is the first significance.
Secondly, yes he created those imagined-based constructs but as @Damage3245 and @Dereck03 pointed out, there is no feat for this.

The main argument, yes there are none, but also nothing suggests that his own creation can surpass him, and they are both are equivalent in terms of nature since fundamental information created them by Gremmy.

 

[zylieo]

.....That would be Regeneration Negation?, if he's capable of killing Shaz despite his regeneration than that would be Regen Negation.

ah i see, you can put me down in agree for everything then

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm going to explain the reasoning behind Gremmy's Regeneration Negation more in-depth because it seems like people aren't understanding the argument.

The argument for Gremmy's Regeneration Negation isn't because we're directly shown or stated that he can negate Shaz's regeneration, because we aren't. That would be a blatantly lie on my part if i asserted such a thing. So the people who believe i'm making that argument need to stop because that isn't my argument.

My argument is that we have precedence that Gremmy can erase/kill his "imagination byproduct" creation like Lee, beyond their innate capabilities, which means Gremmy should be capable of bypassing Shaz's regeneration similar to Lee's NEP.

Now there's an important part of that argument which people seemingly aren't getting, it's the fact that Gremmy can kill/erase someone beyond their innate capabilities, which is shown by the fact he was capable of erasing Lee from existence despite the fact Lee was completely fine after erasing his own "existence" from reality with "The Vanishing Point". This is important to note because it implies this idea that Gremmy is capable of destroying his own creations beyond the abilities they're given by Gremmy.

Given the fact Shaz got his regeneration from Gremmy, and the fact we have precedent that Gremmy can erase his creations beyond their abilities, it's logically possible and consistent to assume Gremmy would be capable of doing the same against Shaz just like he did against Lee.

Hence why i believe a "possibly" rating is completely fine.

 

[Damage3245]

My argument is that we have precedence that Gremmy can erase/kill his "imagination byproduct" creation like Lee, beyond their innate capabilities, which means Gremmy should be capable of bypassing Shaz's regeneration similar to Lee's NEP.

In my view that's too much of an assumption for that to be case that it 'should' happen.

Lee also wasn't Non-Existent at the time that Gremmy erased him so as far as I can tell it's not suggested that Gremmy bypassed his ability either.

 

[Deceived3596]

In my view that's too much of an assumption for that to be case that it 'should' happen.

It definitely isn't too "assumptive" but that's down to a matter of perspective, i just don't believe it's logically that assumptive given the compounding context.

Lee also wasn't Non-Existent at the time that Gremmy erased him so as far as I can tell it's not suggested that Gremmy bypassed his ability either.

That doesn't matter? if you're capable of erasing someone who was completely fine after erasing their own existence from reality than you'd innately overcame that level of erasure..... because you erased them on a "deeper level" which is above their own capabilities of self-erasure. It wouldn't matter if they were using an ability or not. They'd naturally have a "level" which they can be erased to before they're negatively affect, which is what happened to Lee.

It would still be applicable to my argument because it still shows Gremmy overcoming his creation's innate abilities.

 

[ImmortalDread]

In my view that's too much of an assumption for that to be case that it 'should' happen.

Would you agree on this perspective side (it is worth of noting a well)

Both creations are made by the same fundamental matter, so in terms of nature they are both equivalent. Despite their broken abilities, Gremmy simply ignore all this and undo/erase him from reality. Nothing suggests that he can't do the same to the other person since they are both the same in the nature and neither has been suggested in the entire plot that they both surpass Gremmy.

I am aware that there are no feats, but again, the possibly rating is created for these cases.

 

[Damage3245]

That doesn't matter? if you're capable of erasing someone who was completely fine after erasing their own existence from reality than you'd innately overcame that level of erasure..... because you erased them on a "deeper level" which is above their own capabilities of self-erasure.

It would still be applicable to my argument because it still shows Gremmy overcoming his creation's innate abilities.

I don't know if I'd consider that a "deeper level" or just something different to the user's own power. Just because Guaneal Lee could be fine after intentionally erasing his own existence with his power doesn't mean he'd automatically be fine if anyone else targeted his existence with their power. We'd have to make some assumptions on how that works.

 

[Deceived3596]

I don't know if I'd consider that a "deeper level" or just something different to the user's own power. Just because Guaneal Lee could be fine after intentionally erasing his own existence with his power doesn't mean he'd automatically be fine if anyone else targeted his existence with their power. We'd have to make some assumptions on how that works.

Damage.... you're quite literally making the assumption that Lee's ability would act differently from Gremmy's erasure when that's never implied or stated, you'd require more assumptions to make that claim compared to mine because i'm saying they're both Existence Erasure, one just specifically targets oneself while the other doesn't.

If Guenael Lee is fine after erasing his own existence, then he'd be assume fine if another erased his existence without further context/evidence of the contradictory since both are functionally doing the samething. You're making unneeded assumptions which aren't even supported by the manga.

 

[Damage3245]

@Deceived3596 I'm not saying it would act differently, I said it would be an assumption that it works the same way as Lee's ability.

Two things erasing existence does not make them the same.

Anyway, I've given my thoughts on it now. I'll see how the rest of the thread continues.

 

[Reio35]

In my view that's too much of an assumption for that to be case that it 'should' happen.

Lee also wasn't Non-Existent at the time that Gremmy erased him so as far as I can tell it's not suggested that Gremmy bypassed his ability either.

Actually you are wrong, he created him due to “reality wraping which is on informational level”. This is the first significance.
Secondly, yes he created those imagined-based constructs but as @Damage3245 and @Dereck03 pointed out, there is no feat for this.

The main argument, yes there are none, but also nothing suggests that his own creation can surpass him, and they are both are equivalent in terms of nature since fundamental information created them by Gremmy.

Its confirmed gremmy has to focused on his creation them to still exist. Like when he stopped focusing on yachiru her bones went back to normal the same applies for all his construction. You both are making the extra assumption that it doesn't work shaz specifically.

 

[Damage3245]

Its confirmed gremmy has to focused on his creation them to still exist. Like when he stopped focusing on yachiru her bones went back to normal the same applies for all his construction. You both are making the extra assumption that it doesn't work shaz specifically.

I never said it wouldn't work on Shaz. I'm sure Gremmy could attempt to erase Shaz' existence just fine.

It's the Regen Negation part that I disagreed with.

 

[Reio35]

I never said it wouldn't work on Shaz. I'm sure Gremmy could attempt to erase Shaz' existence just fine.

It's the Regen Negation part that I disagreed with.

Well if u agree he can erase shaz then he can erase/remove his ability as well

 

[ImmortalDread]

I never said it wouldn't work on Shaz. I'm sure Gremmy could attempt to erase Shaz' existence just fine.

It's the Regen Negation part that I disagreed with.

They are both interconnected...? Pardon me?

 

[Damage3245]

They are both interconnected...? Pardon me?

Maybe I worded that badly, sorry.

What I mean is just because Gremmy could attempt to erase him doesn't mean he'd succeed in erasing him. It was noted in this scan that Shaz slipped Gremmy's control anyway.

 

[Deceived3596]

It was noted in this scan that Shaz slipped Gremmy's control anyway.

We're referencing the version of Shaz that was still an imagination.

Also the reasoning behind his regeneration is completely different to Gremmy's scenario which is being brought up. Shaz gained his independence from Gremmy after having his imaginary body destroyed overtime, and then replacing it with physicality via Reishi. Which is completely different from Gremmy stopping his belief in Shaz's existence while he was still an imagination. You can't prove he'd be capable of regenerating himself from Gremmy's disbelief of him because he's still Gremmy's imagination during that period of time.

These two scenarios aren't analogs to each other.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It was noted in this scan that Shaz slipped Gremmy's control anyway.

Well that is specifically referring to how he made a real body instead of an imagination body. But I can see the conservative interpretation away from Gremmy that you're implying. Although personally I think that means Gremmy forgetting him wouldnt kill him, rather than Gremmy cant kill him. Because Gremmy can kill his creations by forgetting them, but to kill others he needs to actively imagine their death. Like with Guanel if he forgets him he can kill him or he can directly imagine his death, but he could accidentally forget Guanel, but he cant accidentally forget Rose or someone. So Shaz is free from being "accidentally" killed via forgetting. If that makes sense

 

[Deceived3596]

It's literally the exact same scenario as the meteor Gremmy summoned, he gave the meteor physicality so it wouldn't disappear even if you killed Gremmy. Shaz gained physicality so he wouldn't disappear if Gremmy died or stopped thinking about him.

That isn't evidence for Gremmy being incapable of killing Shaz, it's evidence that Shaz won't just randomly die because Gremmy died or didn't think about this existence anymore.

 

[Purgy]

Non-Physical Interaction (Abstract Existence (Type 1) - Informational - Gremmy can interact with[1] and erase beings[2] who lack "physical realities" but rather are constructed of "pure imagination"[3], from existence, such as Guenael Lee)

Wouldn't this part apply to all Shinigami/souls etc? Since Kenpachi repeatedly cuts Gremmy's imaginary body and Yachiru does the same to Guenael Lee?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Wouldn't this part apply to all Shinigami/souls etc? Since Kenpachi repeatedly cuts Gremmy's imaginary body and Yachiru does the same to Guenael Lee?

This does actually

 

[Damage3245]

Wouldn't this part apply to all Shinigami/souls etc? Since Kenpachi repeatedly cuts Gremmy's imaginary body and Yachiru does the same to Guenael Lee?

Gremmy's body that he creates isn't non-physical.

 

[Aernasilver]

Wouldn't this part apply to all Shinigami/souls etc? Since Kenpachi repeatedly cuts Gremmy's imaginary body and Yachiru does the same to Guenael Lee?

Ichigo interacted with Shaz before his body become a reality.

Edit: Actually... re-reading it - it seems he had already become a reality before he met Ichigo. Which means during his attack on the Research and Development Institute he was already getting interacted by fodders since "As Shaz lost parts of his body in battle, the parts originally created by Gremmy’s imagination would regenerate as parts created by reishi."

 

[Purgy]

Gremmy's body that he creates isn't non-physical.

Based on? Gremmy's body is literally a figment of his imagination the exact same way Guenael Lee and Shaz were, also, when Gremmy "dies" his body disappears, directly proving that it's still just imaginary and not real like the meteor that would have continued to exist even after his death.

Lastly, there's still the point of Yachiru and Guenael Lee, she cuts him twice.

 

[Damage3245]

Based on? Gremmy's body is literally a figment of his imagination the exact same way Guenael Lee and Shaz were, also, when Gremmy "dies" his body disappears, directly proving that it's still just imaginary and not real like the meteor that would have continued to exist even after his death.

Lastly, there's still the point of Yachiru and Guenael Lee, she cuts him twice.

Why does being a figment of his imagination make it non-physical? How does it disappearing after his "death" mean that it wasn't physical prior to it disappearing?

It's an extraordinary claim that Gremmy and his creations are completely intangible ordinarily to anyone except conveniently Kenpachi and Yachiru, so I'd need to see evidence to support that.

Gremmy created plenty of imaginary constructs such as missiles and guns that could interact with the environment around them, showing that they're physical. Being imaginary does not imply that they cannot be touched, especially when his whole power is making his imagination into reality.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Why does being a figment of his imagination make it non-physical? How does it disappearing after his "death" mean that it wasn't physical prior to it disappearing?

It's an extraordinary claim that Gremmy and his creations are completely intangible ordinarily to anyone except conveniently Kenpachi and Yachiru, so I'd need to see evidence to support that.

Gremmy created plenty of imaginary constructs such as missiles and guns that could interact with the environment around them, showing that they're physical. Being imaginary does not imply that they cannot be touched, especially when his whole power is

Just to point out. As far as I seen AE doesn't work like that. By your logic you should downgrade Complete wiki verses for not having intangibility feats. By statement all verses got AE i don't see why that doens't apply here.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Also even if you go by that logic Ichigo and others were able to interact with Senna in Memory of nobody who is abstract existence based on just memories. NPI looks fine for Soul reapers don't see any Contradiction

 

[Purgy]

Why does being a figment of his imagination make it non-physical?

Because imagination is abstract? Abstract things are innately non-physical, and it's been pretty thoroughly proven in the OP.

The manga and novels make a clear difference between something that's physically real and something that's not real and just a product of his imagination, his body is clearly the latter.

How does it disappearing after his "death" mean that it wasn't physical prior to it disappearing?

Because Gremmy strongly implies that when he dies things he has imagined cease to exist with the exception of those that he specifically makes a reality, meaning his body couldn't be real as it disappears.

It's an extraordinary claim that Gremmy and his creations are completely intangible ordinarily to anyone except conveniently Kenpachi and Yachiru, so I'd need to see evidence to support that.

I never said only to Kenpachi and Yachiru though? Neither of them have a special power that lets them touch imaginary things, hence why I said it would apply to essentially every Shinigami/soul etc.

Gremmy created plenty of imaginary constructs such as missiles and guns that could interact with the environment around them, showing that they're physical. Being imaginary does not imply that they cannot be touched, especially when his whole power is making his imagination into reality.

I'm talking about his body, not the weapons or whatever that he creates, with his body specifically we know it simply cannot be real as again, it disappears when he dies, the same can't be said for the weapons or whatever as they're destroyed before he dies.

How do the things he creates interacting with the environment disqualify it exactly? By that logic, AE is the most useless power on the wiki because apparently if you can interact with characters or attack while you're abstract then you're not really abstract.

 

[Damage3245]

Because imagination is abstract? Abstract things are innately non-physical, and it's been pretty thoroughly proven in the OP.

That doesn't make any sense to me. Reality warpers like Gremmy aren't innately making non-physical things.

The manga and novels make a clear difference between something that's physically real and something that's not real and just a product of his imagination, his body is clearly the latter.

The manga and novels never state that anything made as a product of his imagination cannot be touched.

Because Gremmy strongly implies that when he dies things he has imagined cease to exist with the exception of those that he specifically makes a reality, meaning his body couldn't be real as it disappears.

That doesn't mean that the things which disappear are non-physical.

I'm talking about his body, not the weapons or whatever that he creates, with his body specifically we know it simply cannot be real as again, it disappears when he dies, the same can't be said for the weapons or whatever as they're destroyed before he dies.
How do the things he creates interacting with the environment disqualify it exactly? By that logic, AE is the most useless power on the wiki because apparently if you can interact with characters or attack while you're abstract then you're not really abstract.

I don't really care whether AE is useless or not; I'm not just going to approve abilities that I see no evidence for. I do not see Gremmy and his creations being non-physical and unable to be interacted with normally as the default assumption.

 

[Purgy]

That doesn't make any sense to me. Reality warpers like Gremmy aren't innately making non-physical things.

Something that's just imagination is innately abstract...that's not something I have to prove, the same way I don't have to prove a character who is literally a concept is non-physical by nature.

The manga and novels never state that anything made as a product of his imagination cannot be touched.

They never state half the things on most of the profiles on this wiki, we infer things from more than just statements.

That doesn't mean that the things which disappear are non-physical.

It proves they're not real and are just imagination, which again, is abstract and abstract things are non-physical by default.

I don't really care whether AE is useless or not; I'm not just going to approve abilities that I see no evidence for. I do not see Gremmy and his creations being non-physical and unable to be interacted with normally as the default assumption.

Then why did you agree to AE Type 1 for Guenael Lee? You realize that that makes him highly non-physical? My argument is fundamentally no different to something you've already agreed to...

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

 

[Damage3245]

Something that's just imagination is innately abstract...that's not something I have to prove, the same way I don't have to prove a character who is literally a concept is non-physical by nature.

They're not just imagination. Gremmy's power is make his imagination into reality. His creations are a real physical presence. You're trying to get around the fact that characters are seen interacting with him and creations by making up that "Oh, all Shinigami/Souls just have the ability to interact with non-physical imaginary things" when the far simpler explanation is that the things Gremmy imagines into existence simply have a physical presence that can be interacted with by anyone.

They never state half the things on most of the profiles on this wiki, we infer things from more than just statements.

Fair, but I don't infer the conclusions presented here from the evidence that has been given.

It proves they're not real and are just imagination, which again, is abstract and abstract things are non-physical by default.

I don't agree that this is a default case here that requires no further evidence or proof.

Then why did you agree to AE Type 1 for Guenael Lee? You realize that that makes him highly non-physical? My argument is fundamentally no different to something you've already agreed to...

It's entirely possible for me to overlook something in the OP the first time around.

 

[Purgy]

They're not just imagination. Gremmy's power is make his imagination into reality. His creations are a real physical presence. You're trying to get around the fact that characters are seen interacting with him and creations by making up that "Oh, all Shinigami/Souls just have the ability to interact with non-physical imaginary things" when the far simpler explanation is that the things Gremmy imagines into existence simply have a physical presence that can be interacted with by anyone.

Fair, but I don't infer the conclusions presented here from the evidence that has been given.

I don't agree that this is a default case here that requires no further evidence or proof.

It's entirely possible for me to overlook something in the OP the first time around.

Fair enough, if you don't even agree with the AE part at all then there's no point going back on forth on my original argument when it's reliant on that.

 

[Hellscream]

Idk about gremmy being an abstract existence, but his creations definetly are.

 

[Deceived3596]

Wouldn't this part apply to all Shinigami/souls etc? Since Kenpachi repeatedly cuts Gremmy's imaginary body and Yachiru does the same to Guenael Lee?

That'll be addressed in a future thread.

@Damage3245 also it seems like you completely missed the piece of evidence that heavily implies Gremmy's imagination are innately non-physical, even after they're created. They only become "physical" after Gremmy grants them "physicality", such as the meteor, or gains "physicality" through somesort of regeneration, like Shaz. And i don't mean "physicality" in the "physical" sense, such as solids, liquids etc, but rather in the ontological sense. As in they don't "physically" exist because they're constructed of non-physical imagination.

If they get interacted with by someone and damaged, that person would innately have NPI to that level because they're interacting with something that doesn't actually exist within physical reality.

Arguing otherwise just shows a blatant misunderstanding of how NPI and Abstract Existence works.

 

[Damage3245]

@Deceived3596 I haven't missed it; I just don't agree with the interpretation of it. It says there that Shaz Domino replaced his "imaginary" body parts with parts made out of Reishi using his own regeneration power. I don't think that it being described as "imaginary" however makes it innately non-physical.

Since I can see in the OP however that the "Non-Physical Interaction" is specified to be Abstract Existence instead of Incorporeal or Intangible NPI, then I suppose it is fine.

I just don't think that being labelled "Abstract" here is particularly meaningful since we'd have to just assume that regular individuals wouldn't be able to interact with them when nothing I've seen has suggested that to be the case. I don't like to make arbitrary default decisions like "We define a character as being this way, that means they get X and Y abilities and other characters get Z ability, and we don't need to prove it because it's the default." I'm sure nothing is happening here that actually sounds as bad as that, but I just want to stress that I'm not comfortable with how far we take things sometimes. Simply defining Shaz and Lee as being "imaginary" doesn't make them something that doesn't "exist within physical reality" because everything I've seen otherwise doesn't support that.

 

[Deceived3596]

I haven't missed it; I just don't agree with the interpretation of it. It says there that Shaz Domino replaced his "imaginary" body parts with parts made out of Reishi using his own regeneration power. I don't think that it being described as "imaginary" however makes it innately non-physical

My "interpretation" is the only valid interpretation of the scan as, once again you didn't read it. What you aren't understanding is that "imagination" is directly implied to be non-physical, which is why when Shaz regenerates his body after his "imaginary" one was destroyed, with Reishi he gains a "physical" body, with this "physical" body being distinctively different from his "imagination" body.

You can't argue otherwise because that's literally what the scan is saying to us. Your interpretation isn't supported, and is directly contradicted by the scan itself.

Since I can see in the OP however that the "Non-Physical Interaction" is specified to be Abstract Existence instead of Incorporeal or Intangible NPI, then I suppose it is fine.

Alright.

I just don't think that being labelled "Abstract" here is particularly meanginful since we'd have to just assume that regular individuals wouldn't be able to interact with them when nothing I've seen has suggested that to be the case. I don't like to make arbitrary default decisions like "We define a character as being this way, that means they get X and Y abilities and other characters get Z ability, and we don't need to prove it because it's the default." I'm sure nothing is happening here that actually sounds as bad as that, but I just want to stress that I'm not comfortable with how far we take things sometimes.

.....Huh?

The scan within itself suggests that to be the case, they're constructed of distinctively non-physical imagination, which would innately requires a certain level of interaction to actually interact with them, if they get interacted with than the person who interacted with them gets NPI on that level. It isn't complicated, it doesn't require extraordinary assumptions and it isn't inconsistent. That's just how Abstract Existence works in relation to NPI.

These aren't "arbitrary default decisions", these are the logical follow through's which happens when someone interacts with someone on a distinctive non-physical level, it's like saying you don't like the "arbitrary default decisions" we make when we give someone Soul Manipulation because the damaged someone's Soul. That actually just doesn't make sense, and it's literally antithetical to logic itself.

If someone does X, with doing X innately granting you ability Y, then they would have ability Y because they did X.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't agree but it's not worth going into it. As I said, I'll approve the Abstract NPI but I don't think your interpretation is as solid on this as you claim it is.