Gremmy and Lee Part 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Deceived3596]

Premise:

This thread’s entire premise is arguing for why Lee should have High-Godly Regeneration and why Gremmy should have High-Godly Regeneration Negation.

Lee:

“The Vanishing Point” is Lee’s Schrift, it allows him to “erase” certain aspects of himself from reality, either from himself directly or from the perception of his opponent’s, such as their memory of his existence.

But what matters to this thread is Version 1 and Version 2.

Version 1 “erases” Lee’s “appearance”, causing him to become invisible, while Version 2 “erases” Lee’s “existence” from reality itself, causing him to become intangible/non-corporeal, these forms are distinctively different from one another, as if Lee’s using “Version 1” than he can’t use “Version 2” at the same time, and vice versa. Which means if he’s actively using “Version 2”, which erases his very own “existence” from reality, he can’t use “Version 1” until he deactivates “Version 2”, after he deactivates “Version 2” he’d regain his “existence” which was previously erased as his “existence” needs to actually “exist” for him to activate “Version 1” since “Version 1” is dependent on Lee having an “appearance” to erase, and he wouldn’t have one if he didn’t exist.

Now this is important to note since we need an actual reason why he regains his “existence” after deactivating “Version 2”, and the only logical explanation i can think of is because he’s instantly regenerating his “existence” after it was erased by “Version 2” so he could activate “Version 1”. Now this isn’t concretely proven, but it still gives us a logical explanation behind why Lee’s able to become physical again after he erased his existence, this explanation isn’t inconsistent with the ability itself, isn’t a leap of logic and isn’t very assumptive on our part. It’s logically supported, and best of all doesn’t have innate anti-feats against it.

Now what do i mean by “doesn’t have innate anti-feats against it”, well Yachiru damages Lee with some attacks and he doesn’t instantly regenerate from said damage, now “some people” will exclaim “this a direct anti-feat against Lee having this level of regeneration!!!!”, and i’d ask those dear people, how is that an innate anti-feat against Lee? Yachiru doesn’t fight or damage anyone else within the series so we can’t look at other examples to see if it’s inconsistent, Yachiru doesn’t have any in-verse explanations or statements which imply she wouldn’t have this level of regeneration negation, hell she doesn’t even have ANTI-FEATS for god sake. We have ZERO reasons to assume she wouldn’t have this level of regeneration negation when everything points to her having it. To assume otherwise just shows blatant incredulity on that person’s part.

With that explanation and preemptive counter refutation given, we need to now find out what level of regeneration this would give, which is very easy to find out. Lee specifically states he’s erasing his “existence” completely from reality, now what would be contained within this existence? Well it would innately contain his soul, mind and body as explained within this accepted blog, and since Lee’s isn’t actually an ontological, physical being, but rather is constructed of “pure imagination” it would also contain his fundamental information within it as well, as Lee’s fundamental information is his imaginary body, which is distinctly different from physical reality.

This level of regeneration as explained on our Regeneration Page is “High-Godly” since Lee’s regenerating from the erasure of his mind, body and soul, alongside his fundamental information.

With this explanation, this is how it would look on the profiles if accepted.

Spoiler

Likely Regeneration (High-Godly - Lee's likely capable of regenerating himself after[1] "erasing" his entire "existence" from reality[1], which contains his soul, mind, body[2] and fundamental information[3]. This is only assumed "likely" because of the lack of direct statements concretely confirming its regeneration, but the rating itself is supported by context clues, deductive reasoning and isn't contradicted by anything in the series)

Gremmy:

This will be a lot shorter than Lee’s explanation since Gremmy only needs to show feats of killing Lee beyond his regeneration, which he directly did in the story. Simple.

With this explanation, this is how it would look like on the profile.

Spoiler

Likely Regeneration Negation (High-Godly - Gremmy's likely capable of bypassing one's innate regeneration, this is shown with Gremmy[1] erasing Guenael Lee beyond his regeneration[1] despite the fact Guenael Lee was likely capable of regenerating his "existence" after it was "completely erased" by The Vanishing Point)

With this all explained, let’s get onto the voting/discussion portion of this thread.

Voting:

Agree - @Dread

Disagree -

Neutral -

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with everything here. Pretty unequivocal. Simple, not perplexed.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Now what do i mean by “doesn’t have innate anti-feats against it”, well Yachiru damages Lee with some attacks and he doesn’t instantly regenerate from said damage, now “some people” will exclaim “this a direct anti-feat against Lee having this level of regeneration!!!!”, and i’d ask those dear people, how is that an innate anti-feat against Lee? Yachiru doesn’t fight or damage anyone else within the series so we can’t look at other examples to see if it’s inconsistent, Yachiru doesn’t have any in-verse explanations or statements which imply she wouldn’t have this level of regeneration negation, hell she doesn’t even have ANTI-FEATS for god sake. We have ZERO reasons to assume she wouldn’t have this level of regeneration negation when everything points to her having it. To assume otherwise just shows blatant incredulity on that person’s part.

 

[Deceived3596]

Certified Mitch comment.

 

[Rocker1189]

Yeah no, that is not at all how any of this works. You cant just think that this is just how his ability works? It would be a pretty shit ability if he erased himself and just could not comeback in anyway whatsoever. The coming back is also a part of his ability. And no just because yachiru doesnt damage anyone else in the series doesnt mean that somehow she can negate high-godly regeneration.

The explanation is that his ability vanishing point allows him to come back from its use that should be the base explanation of how he is able to go into this state and back.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah.... I'm against this. There is nothing pointing to Lee actually having this level of regeneration. He's just switching his ability on and off, he's not switching it off then relying on High-Godly regen to bring him back.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm gaming rn so i'll address your arguments later, but all of your refutations suck.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yeah ok, I don't think he actually is erasing the "existence" of himself. That seems more like a flowery term for the fact that he just hides from all form of perception

This is just Memory Manipulation+Invisibility+Intangibility

He doesn't actually cease to exist when he uses this power, and Gremmy saying he can't see his future is more about just killing him, not Existence Erasing him

 

[LordGinSama]

Dread gave input so thread is an automatic L.

 

[Rocker1189]

I'm gaming rn so i'll address your arguments later, but all of your refutations suck.

There is nothing to refute as there is no feat in the first place. We know what his ability is and we know that he just reverses the effect to come back which is why he stays hurt when he is hurt. What you are doing is escalating from what his ability does and ignoring the fact that he can simply comeback from such a state.

That would be like claiming Obito has some crazy regen since he can send parts of himself to the kamui dimension and back. When it is simply a mechanic of kamui.

 

[LordGinSama]

Rocker out here giving me 2018 vs battles Nam flashbacks by mentioning Naruto in a Bleach thread.

 

[Rocker1189]

Rocker out here giving me 2018 vs battles Nam flashbacks by mentioning Naruto in a Bleach thread.

Lol, its the best comparison I can think of atm. Cant remember anyone else with "similar" abilities.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah ok, I don't think he actually is erasing the "existence" of himself. That seems more like a flowery term for the fact that he just hides from all form of perception

Yeah. Rereading the fight, I have to wonder whether some flowery language was misinterpreted here and a bigger deal is being made out of Lee's ability than it should be.

 

[LordGinSama]

To be fair I don't think that's the best comparison to make given that there's a vast difference in mechanics between Kamui and the Vanishing Point.

 

[Rocker1189]

To be fair I don't think that's the best comparison to make given that there's a vast difference in mechanics between Kamui and the Vanishing Point.

Yes sure but they both share the fact that the person is put in a logically death like state in their use (erasing one's existence/cutting himself up in a sense). Thus the comparison.

Point being that when you ability puts you in said state and back it isnt another innate ability at work unless stated otherwise.

 

[Deceived3596]

Since i'm making some lunch right now i have time to respond.

Yeah no, that is not at all how any of this works. You cant just think that this is just how his ability works? It would be a pretty shit ability if he erased himself and just could not comeback in anyway whatsoever. The coming back is also a part of his ability. And no just because yachiru doesnt damage anyone else in the series doesnt mean that somehow she can negate high-godly regeneration.

The explanation is that his ability vanishing point allows him to come back from its use that should be the base explanation of how he is able to go into this state and back.

I'm not "thinking" how this ability works, i'm going off what's directly stated how it works, the only inferences i'm making is the mechanics behind how Lee's regains his existence after it's erased by Version 2. That isn't a refutation against the assumption i'm making, you're just re-stating the obvious, yes the ability would be shitty if he didn't have a way to regain his existence, now how actually does he regain his existence? you haven't addressed that yet. Yes it does? what's the argument against her having that level of regeneration negation?, you don't have an argument, you only have incredulity.

.....That doesn't address the argument dude, HOW is he regaining his existence, you can't just say "it's through his ability" and leave it at that, you need an ACTUAL reason why.

Yeah.... I'm against this. There is nothing pointing to Lee actually having this level of regeneration. He's just switching his ability on and off, he's not switching it off then relying on High-Godly regen to bring him back.

Addressed this assertion above, this isn't good argument nor is it a refutation to the base claim i'm making in the OP.

Yeah ok, I don't think he actually is erasing the "existence" of himself. That seems more like a flowery term for the fact that he just hides from all form of perception

No, he's erasing his actual existence from reality, that's why he directly says so multiple times that's what he's doing.

This is just Memory Manipulation+Invisibility+Intangibility

He doesn't actually cease to exist when he uses this power, and Gremmy saying he can't see his future is more about just killing him, not Existence Erasing him

Mitch.... what Gremmy's saying doesn't contradict what Lee's says at all, Lee directly says he's erasing his existence from reality, which would innately erase his existence from the sight, mind and memory of the opponent.

Like did you not read the scans in the OP which directly shows he's erasing his entire existence from reality, which is why he becomes intangible? like the amount of mental gymnastics you gotta go through argue "flowery language" when Lee mutliple times state he's erasing his actual existence from reality is absurbd.

That would be like claiming Obito has some crazy regen since he can send parts of himself to the kamui dimension and back. When it is simply a mechanic of kamui.

Bad analogy.

Kamui doesn't erase that part of your body from existence, it just teleports it into a separate dimension, Lee's ability erases him from existence itself. These two aren't analogs to each other.

 

[Purgy]

While I don't really agree with this thread, what Gremmy says is just an oversimplification for Guenael's ability, he's describing the results and not the mechanics, like it's absolutely true that Guenael is non-existent from sight, mind and memory, this doesn't contradict what Guenael states his ability does though.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Mitch.... what Gremmy's saying doesn't contradict what Lee's says at all, Lee directly says he's erasing his existence from reality, which would innately erase his existence from the sight, mind and memory of the opponent.

Like did you not read the scans in the OP which directly shows he's erasing his entire existence from reality, which is why he becomes intangible? like the amount of mental gymnastics you gotta go through argue "flowery language" when Lee mutliple times state he's erasing his actual existence from reality is absurbd.

By existence, he means his existence in people's mind, memory, and physicality doesn't exist

People simply cannot interact with him, and hence he does not "exist", but he very clearly does still exist

He can move around, have thoughts, and still activate his abilities, you're literally taking it as he ceases to exist entirely in body, soul, and mind

 

[Rocker1189]

now how actually does he regain his existence?

As part of his ability? He directly states he goes back from version 2 to version 1. Not that he regenerates his body in any way outside of said ability. He is simply able to reverse his ability.

what's the argument against her having that level of regeneration negation?

You first have to prove she has the ability I cant prove a negative. The question is what is the proof that Yachiru had high-godly regen negation. And using this ability you gave him as evidence doesnt work. That is circular logic as you first have to prove with evidence that he actually has high-godly regen in the first place.

HOW is he regaining his existence, you can't just say "it's through his ability" and leave it at that

I can and I would because it is straight up what he does. He goes to version 1 then 2 and then vice versa. He literally says it:

Spoiler

And is able to do so instantly:

Spoiler

Kamui doesn't erase that part of your body from existence, it just teleports it into a separate dimension, Lee's ability erases him from existence itself. These two aren't analogs to each other.

I answer this with my reply to LordGin

 

[Purgy]

By existence, he means his existence in people's mind, memory, and physicality doesn't exist

People simply cannot interact with him, and hence he does not "exist", but he very clearly does still exist

He can move around, have thoughts, and still activate his abilities, you're literally taking it as he ceases to exist entirely in body, soul, and mind

None of this disproves NEP by the way, there's literally a type of NEP for this very reason...

Paradoxical Nonexistence: Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist, but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities. To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type. In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah I'm not agreeing with this

 

[Deceived3596]

Yeah this isn't getting accepted, so y'all can close this.

If you wish to revise Lee's NEP then do so in another thread, because my interest in this one has completely been lost.