Gravity Rush Downgrades

[DontTalkDT]

So yeah, I'm not happy with Gravity Rush stats.

Neu Hiraleon Scaling​

The 7-C rating is based on this calc. And it's fine and all, problem is it doesn't scale to Kat.

I want you to look at the boss fight:

(I recommend to watch at 2x speed to save time)

For one, notice how the giant monster destroys entire islands while Kat needs bombs to even just blow up the bridges between them.

But contradicting feats aside, she doesn't have any reason to scale.
You will notice watching the fight that Kat neither ever tanks an actual hit (like, it doesn't hit her by swinging any giant arm the way it does when destroying island) nor can she inflict any regular damage on it.
What do I mean with regular damage? Well, she defeats it by destroying those glowing red crystals. Those are the weak spots of all Nevi (the species of monsters this belongs to). You can roughly think of them as their "eyeballs" given that they frequently use the crystals as exactly that.
Kat can also only harm the crystals if the protective tentacles are not in the way. She can not break through those.

To actually kill it they then destroy a gravity reactor inside of it. So they essentially crawl into its body and demolish its heart. To actually open the entrance inside they used a ship cannon, not their powers. Inside they also encounter parts they explicitely can't break on their own.

So to summarize: They kill a giant they generally can't harm on their own, by first repeatedly harming its eyeballs and then going into it to mess with internal organs.
None of that establishes scaling. If anything, the whole fight shows us plenty of how they don't scale to it at all, given how they constantly plan around their inability to just destroy it in a straight fight.

Everything Low 2-C related doesn't work on any level.​

Where to start?

Well, maybe for one the distinction between Base and Panther Mode is weird, given that both could equally damage the Destructive Force.
Here's the fight:

Both do damage, neither do relevant damage. Only the Gravity Gryps form does relevant damage.
Of course, Base Kat scaling would be in pretty obvious contradiction to all else we see in the game, which is probably why it isn't done. But if you consider that, neither Base nor Pather Mode should scale.

However, the bigger problem is that the thing she fights isn't Low 2-C anyway. Honestly, the degree of destruction we see during the fight should make it obvious that its attacks are not "return the world to nothing"-level.
More importantly, this is an avatar of the Destructive Force whose destruction is irrelevant to it as a whole. Which is why Kat has to go and seal the Destructive Force in her black hole after defeating the thing.
There is no united energy system or anything in play here which would justify this avatar being as powerful as the Darkness/Destructive Force as a whole.
So there is no way to scale the apocalypse the Destructive Force would eventually bring to Kat.

But wait, there's more.
Let's talk about the apocalypse.
We have "threatens the fabric of the universe" which is certainly pretty vague. Then we have the whole destroy the world bit, but we only really know the world pillar as world, so who knows how large of a construct that really means. Gravity Rush doesn't really do planets and stars, as far as we are aware.
More importantly, the destruction of the world probably refers to how the world pillar is gradually pulled into the black hole at the bottom of it, which is the Darkness.

Whatever the case, the destruction is going incredibly slow. The village Boutoume is at the bottom of the world pillar and maybe a few kilometers below the main city of the game (Hekseville) judging by how far down we seem to descend when going down in-game.
Yet during the years between that point and the later stages of Gravity Rush 2 the Darkness has not made enough progress in destruction to reach Hekseville.
Sure, the Destructive Force will eventually destroy the whole world. However, that eventually isn't anytime soon, but done via some slow continuous effort over a long time.
So the Destructive Force isn't even Universe level in AP itself.

Honestly, the fact that Kat could imprison it in a relatively small black hole just supports that further.

Let's not use Black Hole calcs​

The Destructive Force uses Black Hole stats.
The black holes we see properly in the game are clearly fake, which doesn't inspire confidence for this one.
But even if we did accept it, there is no indication that the Destructive Force has the ability to create the black hole, destroy it or move it, so it really makes no sense to have that as regular stat. Like, black hole creation would already need a UES to scale to regular stats, which it doesn't have, and this isn't even creation.

Storm Stuff​

Edit: Forgot to address Elektricide.
I'm both sceptical that she creates the storm or at least in full. We see there already are clouds before she does her thing.
Second, she lacks the UES to actually scale to that, given that she obviously isn't creating clouds using her lightning powers.

What should be done?​

Well, simply downgrade them to the next best feats. I believe that would be this one, so City-Block level. That's also way more in line with what we see Kat do in the game.

 

[Dalesean027]

For one, notice how the giant monster destroys entire islands while Kat needs bombs to even just blow up the bridges between them.

But contradicting feats aside, she doesn't have any reason to scale.
You will notice watching the fight that Kat neither ever tanks an actual hit (like, it doesn't hit her by swinging any giant arm the way it does when destroying island) nor can she inflict any regular damage on it.
What do I mean with regular damage? Well, she defeats it by destroying those glowing red crystals. Those are the weak spots of all Nevi (the species of monsters this belongs to). You can roughly think of them as their "eyeballs" given that they frequently use the crystals as exactly that.
Kat can also only harm the crystals if the protective tentacles are not in the way. She can not break through those.

To actually kill it they then destroy a gravity reactor inside of it. So they essentially crawl into its body and demolish its heart. To actually open the entrance inside they used a ship cannon, not their powers. Inside they also encounter parts they explicitely can't break on their own.

So to summarize: They kill a giant they generally can't harm on their own, by first repeatedly harming its eyeballs and then going into it to mess with internal organs.
None of that establishes scaling. If anything, the whole fight shows us plenty of how they don't scale to it at all, given how they constantly plan around their inability to just destroy it in a straight fight.

To specify here to start she isn't scaling to Neu Hiraleon as a whole as that would be High 7-C via another calc I have on the verse page, she's specifically only scaling to the Nevi that would be control of its arms as those are what are holding it together and the main body itself in the gravity engine is what's moving the body around. Other than that any addition feats come from scaling to rift masters as well as Nevi who are able to generate larger storms on their own via their power but regardless back to that current scaling as I said its already based off of her scaling to the Nevi controlling the arms of Neu Hiraleon as she attacks them specifically.

Also destroy the nevi controller the gravity engine itself doesn't really discredit anything as Nevi prior have been shown to take over technology altering as such and making it stronger than previously as noted by Gade's own disdain of this in the first game, we know that nevi are themself have the power as such to hold together realms, structures via their own power, as well as act as legitimate power sources, or generating entire storms via their powers will of these having them either crumble or fade upon their defeat


Defeats Rift Masters who with their power can hold large sections of Hekseville's districts in their own dimensions with them fading upon their defeat.[1] Casually dispatches of lesser Nevi that are capable of generating and maintaining large gravity storms with their power like these here[2] [3] with the storms fading upon their defeat.

The bridge needing explosives itself to be blown up while an anti-feat is honestly not even that damning in the grand scheme of things are functions more of a hindsight on the part of the developers considering the numerous 8-C to high 8-C feats performed quite casually in these games and functions as a game mechanic for mission structure which itself is silly because we've just seen them destroy larger things consistently in single strikes.

Let's not use Black Hole calcs​

The Destructive Force uses Black Hole stats.
The black holes we see properly in the game are clearly fake, which doesn't inspire confidence for this one.
But even if we did accept it, there is no indication that the Destructive Force has the ability to create the black hole, destroy it or move it, so it really makes no sense to have that as regular stat. Like, black hole creation would already need a UES to scale to regular stats, which it doesn't have, and this isn't even creation.

Storm Stuff​

Edit: Forgot to address Elektricide.
I'm both sceptical that she creates the storm or at least in full. We see there already are clouds before she does her thing.
Second, she lacks the UES to actually scale to that, given that she obviously isn't creating clouds using her lightning powers.

will cover these two later

However, the bigger problem is that the thing she fights isn't Low 2-C anyway. Honestly, the degree of destruction we see during the fight should make it obvious that its attacks are not "return the world to nothing"-level.
More importantly, this is an avatar of the Destructive Force whose destruction is irrelevant to it as a whole. Which is why Kat has to go and seal the Destructive Force in her black hole after defeating the thing.
There is no united energy system or anything in play here which would justify this avatar being as powerful as the Darkness/Destructive Force as a whole.
So there is no way to scale the apocalypse the Destructive Force would eventually bring to Kat.

But wait, there's more.
Let's talk about the apocalypse.
We have "threatens the fabric of the universe" which is certainly pretty vague. Then we have the whole destroy the world bit, but we only really know the world pillar as world, so who knows how large of a construct that really means. Gravity Rush doesn't really do planets and stars, as far as we are aware.
More importantly, the destruction of the world probably refers to how the world pillar is gradually pulled into the black hole at the bottom of it, which is the Darkness.

Whatever the case, the destruction is going incredibly slow. The village Boutoume is at the bottom of the world pillar and maybe a few kilometers below the main city of the game (Hekseville) judging by how far down we seem to descend when going down in-game.
Yet during the years between that point and the later stages of Gravity Rush 2 the Darkness has not made enough progress in destruction to reach Hekseville.
Sure, the Destructive Force will eventually destroy the whole world. However, that eventually isn't anytime soon, but done via some slow continuous effort over a long time.
So the Destructive Force isn't even Universe level in AP itself.

Honestly, the fact that Kat could imprison it in a relatively small black hole just supports that further.

Before I speak more on the destructive force in a second but you're missing that this isn't the only evidence in Isolation and have overlooked the evidence on Raven's profiles regarding the creators

Raven (Gravity Rush)

Raven, formerly Sachya, is a mysterious and extremely strong girl who, like Kat, is a shifter. Originally antagonistic towards Kat, she eventually becomes an ally as her motives are revealed. She has a crow named Xii, who mirrors Dusty's ability to grant her gravity powers. Tier: 7-C, Low 2-C...

vsbattles.fandom.com

but to save time I'll put additional the evidence here for the Low 2-C

Defeated Lumino and Tenebria after they absorbed the Creators Gade and Cyanae's powers taking nearly all of their them, with Gade having been the one who created the world[1] with himself referring to it as a "universe"[2] and with his power holds the world together and being the gateway to other worlds that also contain starry sky's, Cyanae forms the world that Gravity Rush's setting takes place in with everything in it being figments of her imagination

 

[Dalesean027]

But wait, there's more.
Let's talk about the apocalypse.
We have "threatens the fabric of the universe" which is certainly pretty vague. Then we have the whole destroy the world bit, but we only really know the world pillar as world, so who knows how large of a construct that really means. Gravity Rush doesn't really do planets and stars, as far as we are aware.
More importantly, the destruction of the world probably refers to how the world pillar is gradually pulled into the black hole at the bottom of it, which is the Darkness.

Whatever the case, the destruction is going incredibly slow. The village Boutoume is at the bottom of the world pillar and maybe a few kilometers below the main city of the game (Hekseville) judging by how far down we seem to descend when going down in-game.
Yet during the years between that point and the later stages of Gravity Rush 2 the Darkness has not made enough progress in destruction to reach Hekseville.
Sure, the Destructive Force will eventually destroy the whole world. However, that eventually isn't anytime soon, but done via some slow continuous effort over a long time.
So the Destructive Force isn't even Universe level in AP itself.

Let's not use Black Hole calcs​

The Destructive Force uses Black Hole stats.
The black holes we see properly in the game are clearly fake, which doesn't inspire confidence for this one.
But even if we did accept it, there is no indication that the Destructive Force has the ability to create the black hole, destroy it or move it, so it really makes no sense to have that as regular stat. Like, black hole creation would already need a UES to scale to regular stats, which it doesn't have, and this isn't even creation.

This also comes from a fundamental lack of understanding of the structure of the world in gravity rush, as the complete guide for gravity rush 2 states that while yes the black hole is engulfing the world pillar, its directly stating its affecting everything beyond dimensions this is including other worlds this is noted be affecting Jigra Para Thao specifically as an example for when its in another dimension. So this destruction isn't limited to the world pillar every dimension we see in the game is affected by this destruction. So when they say it "threatens the fabric of the universe." I'd say its far from vague in this case considering this is supported by the guides. Also OP kinda forgets this still isn't even it as we have numerous statements supporting this stating that the Destructive Force will return the world to nothing by not only itself but the Creator Bit as well who considered this to be unpreventable



regardless though this also kinda is explicitly a counterpoint to your own arguments about it not being a real black hole, additionally here are several shots of the Black Hole itself here this isn't some tiny thing that's like Kat's in gravity rush one or two nor are we considering her micro black holes to be real however as evident by those scans I sent its clearly not the same visually as Kat's at all and is entirely visually distinct and on top of that we know the black hole is the reason why time flows normally or rather differently the further away you are from it with the area closest to the black hole at the bottom of the world tree appearing frozen and unmoving with time passing slower at the bottom. So its time dilation makes it more apparent of being a real singularity

Edit: here's another scan here too with even more evidence about how they treat gravity and its affects on space time

 

[Armorchompy]

The presence of time dilation does make me think there's at least a strong intent to portray the black hole as "real". Not gonna comment on the rest but eve with the gameplay ones not acting realistically I'd be on the side of it being viable.

 

[Dalesean027]

Storm Stuff​

Edit: Forgot to address Elektricide.
I'm both sceptical that she creates the storm or at least in full. We see there already are clouds before she does her thing.
Second, she lacks the UES to actually scale to that, given that she obviously isn't creating clouds using her lightning powers.

What should be done?​

Well, simply downgrade them to the next best feats. I believe that would be this one, so City-Block level. That's also way more in line with what we see Kat do in the game.

and to cover this now as well, you've got the order of events completely wrong here
Before you ascend the world pillar when you're still with Elektrcitie we can see there aren't even remotely any clouds forming when you're actually in area and even as you climb its normal blue skies. You never even get large weather shifts like that in Gravity Rush either without something disrupting it and its only after we see Elektrcitie descend down to destroy everything do we get these here and here. Regardless as well though she is stated numerous times to have “the power to destroy the world below”, described as having "unlimited power" and more than enough power to remove anyone who stands in her way, I mean its even stated they build a new world from the ashes of the old one as a description of her power saying they "break all the rules" So she would logically be far stronger than Neu Hiraleon which already has his own High 7-C scaling so even discounting the low 2-C scaling, Kat, Raven, as well as the Destructive force would still be High 7-C and 8-B wouldn't work as a lowball here

 

[CloverDragon03]

Atm I'm inclined to disagree with the OP, based on Dalesean's rebuttal

 

[DontTalkDT]

To specify here to start she isn't scaling to Neu Hiraleon as a whole as that would be High 7-C via another calc I have on the verse page, she's specifically only scaling to the Nevi that would be control of its arms as those are what are holding it together and the main body itself in the gravity engine is what's moving the body around. Other than that any addition feats come from scaling to rift masters as well as Nevi who are able to generate larger storms on their own via their power but regardless back to that current scaling as I said its already based off of her scaling to the Nevi controlling the arms of Neu Hiraleon as she attacks them specifically.

Also destroy the nevi controller the gravity engine itself doesn't really discredit anything as Nevi prior have been shown to take over technology altering as such and making it stronger than previously as noted by Gade's own disdain of this in the first game, we know that nevi are themself have the power as such to hold together realms, structures via their own power, as well as act as legitimate power sources, or generating entire storms via their powers will of these having them either crumble or fade upon their defeat


Defeats Rift Masters who with their power can hold large sections of Hekseville's districts in their own dimensions with them fading upon their defeat.[1] Casually dispatches of lesser Nevi that are capable of generating and maintaining large gravity storms with their power like these here[2] [3] with the storms fading upon their defeat.

The bridge needing explosives itself to be blown up while an anti-feat is honestly not even that damning in the grand scheme of things are functions more of a hindsight on the part of the developers considering the numerous 8-C to high 8-C feats performed quite casually in these games and functions as a game mechanic for mission structure which itself is silly because we've just seen them destroy larger things consistently in single strikes.

Nothing of the discredits the actual problem I brought up: They exclusively can harm it in specific weakspots. She is not able to harm the Nevi controlling the arms outside of the "eyes" either. Their general durability is entirely beyond her abilities and she can't compete with their strength. The fight makes it pretty clear that their strength comes short in the battle.

The other feats you bring up don't help.
Holding something in another dimension is hax, not AP.
The Nevi don't actually have the UES to scale to their storms. I would also argue you can't actually calc them as you did, as those are gravity storms which usually seem to consist more of Nevi particles than water droplets and stuff. Like, they don't actually work according to real-life weather mechanics. We are talking about storms created due to opening portals to other dimensions.

Before I speak more on the destructive force in a second but you're missing that this isn't the only evidence in Isolation and have overlooked the evidence on Raven's profiles regarding the creators

Raven (Gravity Rush)

Raven, formerly Sachya, is a mysterious and extremely strong girl who, like Kat, is a shifter. Originally antagonistic towards Kat, she eventually becomes an ally as her motives are revealed. She has a crow named Xii, who mirrors Dusty's ability to grant her gravity powers. Tier: 7-C, Low 2-C...

vsbattles.fandom.com

but to save time I'll put additional the evidence here for the Low 2-C

Defeated Lumino and Tenebria after they absorbed the Creators Gade and Cyanae's powers taking nearly all of their them, with Gade having been the one who created the world[1] with himself referring to it as a "universe"[2] and with his power holds the world together and being the gateway to other worlds that also contain starry sky's, Cyanae forms the world that Gravity Rush's setting takes place in with everything in it being figments of her imagination

The creators aren't universe level anymore. They were universe level when they created the world, but since they are not able to freely alter it. The attempt to even make smaller changes will get them erased.

Like, this was due to him opening a portal one too many times.
As we see in their battle, Lumino and Tenebria don't simply use the god powers to reality warp the world or anything spectacular either, suggesting that they can't bring out more power with them.

Additionally, the amount of power that was stolen was just barely enough to open the arc, with them keeping the rest for another time. The gods are running out of power during the whole events. It's not valid to scale them to their beginning of creation selves.

This also comes from a fundamental lack of understanding of the structure of the world in gravity rush, as the complete guide for gravity rush 2 states that while yes the black hole is engulfing the world pillar, its directly stating its affecting everything beyond dimensions this is including other worlds this is noted be affecting Jigra Para Thao specifically as an example for when its in another dimension. So this destruction isn't limited to the world pillar every dimension we see in the game is affected by this destruction. So when they say it "threatens the fabric of the universe." I'd say its far from vague in this case considering this is supported by the guides. Also OP kinda forgets this still isn't even it as we have numerous statements supporting this stating that the Destructive Force will return the world to nothing by not only itself but the Creator Bit as well who considered this to be unpreventable

"World" can easily mean "world pillar". And I will need a translation for that guide statement.

In any case: This misses the key part of the argument- The destruction takes ages. Yeah, maybe it eventually destroys the world, but that isn't by engulfing it in a rapid explosion. It gradually erodes it or, in the case of the world pillar, apparently the black hole consumes it. Destruction of the universe in 10^50 years is not enough to get universe level rating.

You also didn't address the point on a lack of a UES, so that this doesn't actually scale to anyone.

regardless though this also kinda is explicitly a counterpoint to your own arguments about it not being a real black hole, additionally here are several shots of the Black Hole itself here this isn't some tiny thing that's like Kat's in gravity rush one or two nor are we considering her micro black holes to be real however as evident by those scans I sent its clearly not the same visually as Kat's at all and is entirely visually distinct and on top of that we know the black hole is the reason why time flows normally or rather differently the further away you are from it with the area closest to the black hole at the bottom of the world tree appearing frozen and unmoving with time passing slower at the bottom. So its time dilation makes it more apparent of being a real singularity

Edit: here's another scan here too with even more evidence about how they treat gravity and its affects on space time

The presence of time dilation does make me think there's at least a strong intent to portray the black hole as "real". Not gonna comment on the rest but eve with the gameplay ones not acting realistically I'd be on the side of it being viable.

It's bigger than Kat's but otherwise a black blob.
And yes, it had time dilation, that's the biggest support.
However, it also pulls in the World Pillar way too slow for a black hole of its size and proximity. And Kat is strongly hinted to have escaped it at the end of GR2. And it's supposed to be a supernatural entity. All of which, together with the precedent, speaks against it.

This also didn't address the point of the black hole parameters not actually scaling to the characters, as the black hole can't move on its own or do anything other than exist.

and to cover this now as well, you've got the order of events completely wrong here
Before you ascend the world pillar when you're still with Elektrcitie we can see there aren't even remotely any clouds forming when you're actually in area and even as you climb its normal blue skies.

That is a huge difference in time. Because the skies were blue yesterday, doesn't mean they can't grow naturally cloudy today.

You never even get large weather shifts like that in Gravity Rush either without something disrupting it

Weather exists in the world. The gameplay not having a weather cycle proves nothing.

and its only after we see Elektrcitie descend down to destroy everything do we get these here and here.

Yeah, but we don't see that she created all of those.

And, again, you didn't address the UES issues.

Regardless as well though she is stated numerous times to have “the power to destroy the world below”, described as having "unlimited power" and more than enough power to remove anyone who stands in her way, I mean its even stated they build a new world from the ashes of the old one as a description of her power saying they "break all the rules" So she would logically be far stronger than Neu Hiraleon which already has his own High 7-C scaling so even discounting the low 2-C scaling, Kat, Raven, as well as the Destructive force would still be High 7-C and 8-B wouldn't work as a lowball here

Yet, contrary to Neu Hiraleon, her attacks don't have the power to nuke entire islands at once.
She has an unlimited energy supply and can burn down the world through continuous thunderstorms. That's what she is indicated to try to do during the fights against her. And we see those lightning strikes she unleashes there don't have this much power.
Also consider how the Shifters can hurt her, but can't hurt Neu Hiraleon the conventional way.
And of course, Shifters have no real lightning resistance, meaning that the shocks are dangerous to them, regardless of pure joules output.

Basically, she's dangerous, she has good environmental destruction ability due to her lightning igniting everything and she has good hype, but her pure power output is never really compared to Neu Hiraleon. We have no direct grounds of scaling any statistics of her to the living city and grounds to believe that she is actually weaker, as she can be harmed by things it could not.

And, as she has no UES and the lightning durability standards, even if her lightning would scale nothing else would.

Atm I'm inclined to disagree with the OP, based on Dalesean's rebuttal

He hasn't even addressed the scaling and UES issues I brought up, though? You're maybe a bit fast with the judgment there.

 

[CloverDragon03]

He hasn't even addressed the scaling and UES issues I brought up, though? You're maybe a bit fast with the judgment there.

I did say "inclined," to communicate it's not a hard and fast stance in light of this. Obviously, a definitive one would come after further discussion, but I'd probably say my wording wasn't the best there.

 

[Dalesean027]

Nothing of the discredits the actual problem I brought up: They exclusively can harm it in specific weakspots. She is not able to harm the Nevi controlling the arms outside of the "eyes" either. Their general durability is entirely beyond her abilities and she can't compete with their strength. The fight makes it pretty clear that their strength comes short in the battle.

This is something that one while yes true she has to target the weakspot that still doesn't necessarily mean anything against her given that without destroying a Nevi's core they aren't going to be defeated since destroying a Nevi's core is how its defeated but she is absolutely able to harm Nevi without hitting them directly in their core granted these are smaller one's but this still shows its very possible but obviously for the purpose of gameplay the boss will function asimilar to how they all function in the game by needing the cores of the nevi on the arms to be destroyed to defeat them.

The creators aren't universe level anymore. They were universe level when they created the world, but since they are not able to freely alter it. The attempt to even make smaller changes will get them erased.

Like, this was due to him opening a portal one too many times.
As we see in their battle, Lumino and Tenebria don't simply use the god powers to reality warp the world or anything spectacular either, suggesting that they can't bring out more power with them.

Additionally, the amount of power that was stolen was just barely enough to open the arc, with them keeping the rest for another time. The gods are running out of power during the whole events. It's not valid to scale them to their beginning of creation selves.


"World" can easily mean "world pillar". And I will need a translation for that guide statement.

In any case: This misses the key part of the argument- The destruction takes ages. Yeah, maybe it eventually destroys the world, but that isn't by engulfing it in a rapid explosion. It gradually erodes it or, in the case of the world pillar, apparently the black hole consumes it. Destruction of the universe in 10^50 years is not enough to get universe level rating.

You also didn't address the point on a lack of a UES, so that this doesn't actually scale to anyone.

Them freely altering the world or doing any kind of interference is what will get them erased but that does mean they don't have the power to do so. Even in the video you sent they explicitly mention the laws of the world being what prevents them from directly interfering normally because they would get erased for doing so. The creators have made it well known that after the creation of a world they're unable to alter the course of events in said world due it's laws threatening their existence if they do in fact do so, it's almost directly implied by Gade that creating a world requires less power than what it takes to interfere with fate said world. Gade at one point has a one off mention of how easy everything would be if they could just directly interfere.

Additionally no all the power they had was not just barely enough to "open the arc" at all. The experiment with the arc had an explosive effect on the world allowing the the actual power source of the arc that being the elements of light and darkness themself to leave the arc and form into keepers which alongside other variables cause time across the entire world to freeze and need repairs. So Lumino and Tenebria absorbed still nearly the entirety of their creator powers and when defeated their being as the elements of light and dark are returned to the arc as its power source on top of the creator powers they absorbed being what's used to repair the world as the arc would already be fine with just the elements that power it itself being returned. they do have reality warping currently because they have shown the ability to in fact affect the world and change everything to being black and white in your battle against them.

And no the "world" is not meaning just the world pillar in this guide statement as it explicitly illustrates other dimensions and the membrane separating them while mentioning that the black hole affects these other dimension so there's no real way of saying it just means only the world pilar. Also not seeing your point about a UES when the destructive force IS the sea of darkness at the bottom of the world, you yourself mentions she needs to seal the thing at the bottom of the world. On top of this fact though no one is scaled to the destructive force outside of the Gravity Grpyhs and of course Panther Mode which would be half of Gryphs.

It's bigger than Kat's but otherwise a black blob.
And yes, it had time dilation, that's the biggest support.
However, it also pulls in the World Pillar way too slow for a black hole of its size and proximity. And Kat is strongly hinted to have escaped it at the end of GR2. Which, together with the precedent, speaks against it.

Still has a very clear event horizon and accretion disk in its presentation even if its artistic and its very evident that its meant to be taken as a real black hole here. The speed of its pull is the only real detractor here that I can see but even then that if anything can be chalked to the fiction setting of the world itself and I mean the only other thing we can't really see is spaghettification and that's just due to us not seeing anything get close enough to it itself to comment on it. And why would Kat's escape detract from this being a legitimate black hole here given what we know here? She became a singularity herself to seal it and did so for a year. As far as we know by the end of the game the destruction is averted and the seal should be intact.

That is a huge difference in time. Because the skies were blue yesterday, doesn't mean they can't grow naturally cloudy today.

Weather exists in the world. The gameplay not having a weather cycle proves nothing.

I can give you that sure but it doesn't discount that we have never at any point in either of the two series we never see any weather remotely of this magnitude if Nevi aren't involved or something else didn't affect it especially a storm this massive. I mean really sure I suppose we can't say with 100% certainty either way if this was or was not of her making so I'm at least willing to accept a likely or possible for said feat for Environmental Destruction, not really that big a deal.

Yet, contrary to Neu Hiraleon, her attacks don't have the power to nuke entire islands at once.
She has an unlimited energy supply and can burn down the world through continuous thunderstorms. That's what she is indicated to try to do during the fights against her. And we see those lightning strikes she unleashes there don't have this much power.
Also consider how the Shifters can hurt her, but can't hurt Neu Hiraleon the conventional way.
And of course, Shifters have no real lightning resistance, meaning that the shocks are dangerous to them, regardless of pure joules output.

Basically, she's dangerous, she has good environmental destruction ability due to her lightning igniting everything and she has good hype, but her pure power output is never really compared to Neu Hiraleon. We have no direct grounds of scaling any statistics of her to the living city and grounds to believe that she is actually weaker, as she can be harmed by things it could not.

And, as she has no UES and the lightning durability standards, even if her lightning would scale nothing else would.

Also man this is legitimately a case of AP vs DC. Her attacks would have to scale to those she is combating and while we've only seen 8-B destructive capacity for her lightning that doesn't really discount it having higher AP, I mean its literally fiction magic lightning kinda can be as strong as the story needs it to be so I don't really see why we're treating this like regular 8-C lightning. Anyways though while it's not the best to use this for the purposes of indexing, in the complete guide both Elektricitie and Neu Hiraleon both are rated as bosses with 5 stars on the strength rating of bosses granted that's likely just for gameplay purposes it still makes the intent clear

 

[DontTalkDT]

This is something that one while yes true she has to target the weakspot that still doesn't necessarily mean anything against her given that without destroying a Nevi's core they aren't going to be defeated since destroying a Nevi's core is how its defeated but she is absolutely able to harm Nevi without hitting them directly in their core granted these are smaller one's but this still shows its very possible but obviously for the purpose of gameplay the boss will function asimilar to how they all function in the game by needing the cores of the nevi on the arms to be destroyed to defeat them.

She can generally harm Nevi that way. The absolute fodder ones. She can not harm this one that way.
In fact, there are these tentacles that work as impenetrable protection for the eyes. So it's not just that the buildings aren't valid gameplay targets, but that the Nevi has body parts that only exist to work as a shield against Kat's attacks.
And again, Kat needs bombs to blow up bridges, while the Nevi destroys islands in the same scene.
Kat makes plans to have a ship fire at the Neu Hiraleon to blow a hole into it, because she can't do that herself.
This aren't just gameplay things, those are story aspects. We are very clearly communicated that in terms of strength and durability, this thing is beyond Kat's paygrade. She can't take it in a straight fight, to the point that they believe it's hopeless before they come up with the plan to destroy the gravity generator that functions as its heart.

You have no evidence at all supporting any scaling to the thing, while we have plenty information very clearly suggesting that Kat isn't close to it in power.

Them freely altering the world or doing any kind of interference is what will get them erased but that does mean they don't have the power to do so. Even in the video you sent they explicitly mention the laws of the world being what prevents them from directly interfering normally because they would get erased for doing so. The creators have made it well known that after the creation of a world they're unable to alter the course of events in said world due it's laws threatening their existence if they do in fact do so, it's almost directly implied by Gade that creating a world requires less power than what it takes to interfere with fate said world. Gade at one point has a one off mention of how easy everything would be if they could just directly interfere.

Thanks for making my point for me?
Yeah, now that creation exists, gods don't have the power to alter it significantly anymore. Which means nothing but that they aren't universe level at this point.
They have limited power, after having their's stolen they won't regain it and have to save what they have left, and what they have is not enough to alter the universe at large scale, as you just quoted.

They are non-rechargeable batteries. At the beginning they could create the universe. After they did that interference with the world using their powers became hard. And each time since then (e.g. all of GR1) they spent some of their remaining power every time they did a little thing to help. At the time of Reven's choice, they had only enough left to deal with the Arc and do the little things they did to help Kat afterwards.
They don't have the power to alter the universe at a large scale anymore, so someone who steals their power doesn't have that either.

If we made profiles for the gods they would have two keys. A "Beginning of Creation"-key and a "Modern"-key. The first would have 3-A stats, the latter would have... idk, probably 8-B or so. The problem is you try to say that someone who stole power from the latter 8-B key would hence scale to the 3-A key. That makes no sense.
Since the current god's powers aren't as great as they used to be, you need to use the feats they accomplish in the present time to scale people to them. Not prehistoric feats.

Additionally no all the power they had was not just barely enough to "open the arc" at all. The experiment with the arc had an explosive effect on the world allowing the the actual power source of the arc that being the elements of light and darkness themself to leave the arc and form into keepers which alongside other variables cause time across the entire world to freeze and need repairs. So Lumino and Tenebria absorbed still nearly the entirety of their creator powers and when defeated their being as the elements of light and dark are returned to the arc as its power source on top of the creator powers they absorbed being what's used to repair the world as the arc would already be fine with just the elements that power it itself being returned.

The parts of their power that was stolen is what is used to open the arc together with the elements of light and darkness. It's not like there is any leftover energy there for them to recover afterwards.
Point is: It's used on a change of vastly below universe level scale, one again showing how the creators are not universe level at that point and hence Lumino and Tenebria, who stole part of their powers, not being universe level either. Having part of the power of a being too weak to accomplish universe level feats of any kind doesn't justify you being able to do that.

they do have reality warping currently because they have shown the ability to in fact affect the world and change everything to being black and white in your battle against them.

Changing the coloration is well within their powers as light and darkness, rather than the god's reality warping.
Not that it matters, as the entire point is that the god's can't do universe level reality warping anymore and hence they can't do it either.
If we want to call tinting the colour of the surroundings reality warping, then it's reality warping vastly below universe level in power. Which actually fits perfectly, since what they stole were powers that could not be used for universe level reality warping.

And no the "world" is not meaning just the world pillar in this guide statement as it explicitly illustrates other dimensions and the membrane separating them while mentioning that the black hole affects these other dimension so there's no real way of saying it just means only the world pilar.

You have provided no translation for that guide statement nor a full image of the page. Do that and we can have a conversation about it.

Also not seeing your point about a UES when the destructive force IS the sea of darkness at the bottom of the world, you yourself mentions she needs to seal the thing at the bottom of the world.

The avatar she is fighting isn't the same as the black hole. You would need a UES to justify that its fists, durability or energy beams scale to the black hole's effects. (or the slow apocalyptic effects in general)

The black hole she seals in her own black hole via a possible suicide technique (or one that at least keeps her away for a year; i.e. not scaling to regular stats anyway) is not something she compares to in power, as their only interaction is her sealing it via black hole. (i.e. hax)
There's a reason she has no hope of winning in any other way than that particular move. Logic suggests that not even the Gravity Grpyhs technique would actually take down the main thing. Only the black hole sealing can, as the god says.

On top of this fact though no one is scaled to the destructive force outside of the Gravity Grpyhs and of course Panther Mode which would be half of Gryphs.

Scaling the Panther still makes little sense, as it could do nothing more against the Avatar of the Destructive Force than Kat's base mode could. The Gryphs is likely stronger than the sum of its parts.

Given, it also shouldn't scale since, as I already explained, there is no UES that would justify the Avatar of the Destructive Force to be as strong as the main black hole body. That it took down the Avatar entirely due to existence erasure hax instead of superior hax certainly doesn't help establish the scaling you suggest either.

Still has a very clear event horizon and accretion disk in its presentation even if its artistic and its very evident that its meant to be taken as a real black hole here.

So do Kat's fake black holes, so I don't think that's much of a support.

The speed of its pull is the only real detractor here that I can see but even then that if anything can be chalked to the fiction setting of the world itself and I mean the only other thing we can't really see is spaghettification and that's just due to us not seeing anything get close enough to it itself to comment on it. And why would Kat's escape detract from this being a legitimate black hole here given what we know here? She became a singularity herself to seal it and did so for a year. As far as we know by the end of the game the destruction is averted and the seal should be intact.

Yeah, but that requires her to be in the black hole and then get out again, which is generally considered a point against black holes being real.

I can give you that sure but it doesn't discount that we have never at any point in either of the two series we never see any weather remotely of this magnitude if Nevi aren't involved or something else didn't affect it especially a storm this massive. I mean really sure I suppose we can't say with 100% certainty either way if this was or was not of her making so I'm at least willing to accept a likely or possible for said feat for Environmental Destruction, not really that big a deal.

So you agree going for Environmental Destruction instead of full AP scaling?

Also man this is legitimately a case of AP vs DC. Her attacks would have to scale to those she is combating and while we've only seen 8-B destructive capacity for her lightning that doesn't really discount it having higher AP, I mean its literally fiction magic lightning kinda can be as strong as the story needs it to be so I don't really see why we're treating this like regular 8-C lightning.

Thing is, you use the "enough power to destroy the world below" statement as evidence for her scaling higher. But that statement is purely about DC, not AP. So it's paradoxical to then turn around and say "Well, she doesn't have DC though".

The statements we get aren't comparing her to Neu Hiraleon is AP. They only hype up her DC. It doesn't directly say that her DC is bigger than it's DC either, but I can accept her hype being better and her likely causing more overall damage due to the fires of her everlasting lightning storms.

Anyways though while it's not the best to use this for the purposes of indexing, in the complete guide both Elektricitie and Neu Hiraleon both are rated as bosses with 5 stars on the strength rating of bosses granted that's likely just for gameplay purposes it still makes the intent clear

Eh, I would need to see how that ranking system works for one, but if this is just in-game difficulty it indeed is not good for scaling.

---

To summarize (just the universe level part for now):

Raven Scaling Chain:​

Creators in Ancient Times:

• Created the Universe
• Universe level

Creators in Modern Times:

• Unable to alter reality on a great scale with their powers anymore, as that's how creator powers work (i.e. creators ≠ manipulators)
• Even small acts like opening portals drain significant portions of their remaining energy, ultimately getting them erased
• Perform no feats of great significance
• Not Universe level anymore

Lumino and Tenebria:

• Stole a portion of the Modern Time Creators powers
• This shouldn't have made them able to manifest more power than what the modern time creators could (+what they already had)
• Do not scale to the Ancient Times Creators
• Not Universe level at any point

Raven:

• Defeats Lumino and Tenebria after they stole Creator powers
• As Lumino and Tenebria aren't universe level in that state, Raven has no reason to be either

Kat Scaling Chain:​

Destructive Force Main Body:

• Destroys the world... eventually
• Destroys the world so slowly that it needed years to drag in even a few kilometers of the World Pillar right above it.
• Not universe level due to how incredibly slow the destruction is

Destructive Force Avatar Body:

• Does not scale to Destructive Force Main Body, as there is no UES that would justify scaling its fists or energy beams to the black hole body or abilities of the main one.
• Has no significant feats of its own.

Kat:

• Seals the Destructive Force Main Body in a black hole and either dies or gets trapped in it herself for a year.
• Does never directly fight or measure her power against the Destructive Force Main Body.
• Base & Panther Version can't harm the Destructive Force Avatar Body in a relevant fashion.
• Gryph form defeats Destructive Force Avatar Body, but only via existence erasure hax.
• Not universe level, as neither of the things she defeated are universe level nor did she defeat them in a fashion that would justify scaling in stats, as she defeated them entirely via sealing/EE hax.

 

[Dalesean027]

She can generally harm Nevi that way. The absolute fodder ones. She can not harm this one that way.
In fact, there are these tentacles that work as impenetrable protection for the eyes. So it's not just that the buildings aren't valid gameplay targets, but that the Nevi has body parts that only exist to work as a shield against Kat's attacks.
And again, Kat needs bombs to blow up bridges, while the Nevi destroys islands in the same scene.
Kat makes plans to have a ship fire at the Neu Hiraleon to blow a hole into it, because she can't do that herself.
This aren't just gameplay things, those are story aspects. We are very clearly communicated that in terms of strength and durability, this thing is beyond Kat's paygrade. She can't take it in a straight fight, to the point that they believe it's hopeless before they come up with the plan to destroy the gravity generator that functions as its heart.

You have no evidence at all supporting any scaling to the thing, while we have plenty information very clearly suggesting that Kat isn't close to it in power.

I'll respond to this later (this is actually the last part I typed but I don't have time to address this as of right now)


for now all I'll say is its just silly to use this one off anti-feat as much as he is when the game lets these characters do all this casually

Thanks for making my point for me?
Yeah, now that creation exists, gods don't have the power to alter it significantly anymore. Which means nothing but that they aren't universe level at this point.
They have limited power, after having their's stolen they won't regain it and have to save what they have left, and what they have is not enough to alter the universe at large scale, as you just quoted.

They are non-rechargeable batteries. At the beginning they could create the universe. After they did that interference with the world using their powers became hard. And each time since then (e.g. all of GR1) they spent some of their remaining power every time they did a little thing to help. At the time of Reven's choice, they had only enough left to deal with the Arc and do the little things they did to help Kat afterwards.
They don't have the power to alter the universe at a large scale anymore, so someone who steals their power doesn't have that either.

Your point if anything has just been actively denied, I'm powerful enough to create a world, but I'm not powerful enough to interfere in the world's order, is what is being said. The fact that his power is brought up and compared to the power to interfere makes this clear so I'm not sure of what you're meaning here. They are quite simply stating that energy required to create worlds < energy needed to change the fate of creation. The fact that if anything throughout both games they create more worlds makes this even more evident such as in GR1 when Cyanae creates a world from the fragments of Kat's subconscious. Even with the arc situation Gade comments on the ark's explosive results breaking everything the way it did and freezing time makes it harder for him to "hold the world together" meaning the world is something he still actively is using his power to maintain.

Also again you're taking this a completely different direction than what the game is saying, its not that interference in the world became hard after its creation, It is literally against the laws of the world that they created for them to for them to interfere in its FATE or else they will be erased. The creation of the world itself has literally 0 to do with any interference because there is no world made yet to interfere in, they can create worlds as they please to no consequence but actively changing the fate of things in that world as they please requires a power that even they don't have. They only begin to interfere with Fate because like they they are moved by the strength of Kat and humanity and do so against the laws of the world so its not even they're powers are dwindling in GR1, the only big change happens in GR2 after everything with the arc and the manifestations of light and dark, that's when they actually have lost most of their powers after having them taken and having to make significant repairs to the world and time. Cyanae for example makes hasn't done any interference until the final couple of chapters of GR1 and even when she first does she's saying she'd hate to do any kind interfere but wants to protect the dream, so its certainly not like she's just been doing things to change fate up to this point as she doesn't even like the idea of doing so and the two times she does in the first game are minor bits of interference in freeing dusty and letting her know to tear a hole in space time to summon the arc with Gade, after that she literally says she's done interfering. By all rights her powers should not be dwindling to any insane degree as she hasn't done anything to cause them to do so as far as interference goes.

You have provided no translation for that guide statement nor a full image of the page. Do that and we can have a conversation about it.

Sure I'll knock that out alongside some other statements for support if you'd be fine with giving the translation request time.

The black hole she seals in her own black hole via a possible suicide technique (or one that at least keeps her away for a year; i.e. not scaling to regular stats anyway) is not something she compares to in power, as their only interaction is her sealing it via black hole. (i.e. hax)
There's a reason she has no hope of winning in any other way than that particular move. Logic suggests that not even the Gravity Grpyhs technique would actually take down the main thing. Only the black hole sealing can, as the god says.

Pretty sure it's implied she uses Gravity Gryphs to seal it in the first place and I'll provide translations like I said but Grpyhs is only obtained as she defeats the destructive force as we both know, the guide describes it as a transcendental form, they say she has obtained the ultimate gravity as she dives into the black hole with Xii and Dusty so its very likely to say she used Gryphs to seal it in the first place to do said sealing. Regardless though she uses the power they would have as a whole being anyways as whatever she does she does with a combination of both Xii and Dusty

Give me time for translations though

Scaling the Panther still makes little sense, as it could do nothing more against the Avatar of the Destructive Force than Kat's base mode could. The Gryphs is likely stronger than the sum of its parts

this isn't evidence against the point at all and is hardly an argument. For one Panther mode's current justification only states that a combination of the two forms was used to defeat the Destructive force, two Raven's Phoenix Mode is directly stated to be equals to Kat's Panther mode so any feats she has that being those involving Lumino and Tenbria scales directly to Kat.

Yeah, but that requires her to be in the black hole and then get out again, which is generally considered a point against black holes being real.

Not necessarily as we know they disappear after she exits them and whatever happened down there anyways we know Xii came back to Raven right after so whose to say how Kat's ability even functioned in regards to that or how things actually happened inside or her being able to leave

So you agree going for Environmental Destruction instead of full AP scaling?

yeah that's fine with me, I've got no real contentions on that.

Thing is, you use the "enough power to destroy the world below" statement as evidence for her scaling higher. But that statement is purely about DC, not AP. So it's paradoxical to then turn around and say "Well, she doesn't have DC though".

The statements we get aren't comparing her to Neu Hiraleon is AP. They only hype up her DC. It doesn't directly say that her DC is bigger than it's DC either, but I can accept her hype being better and her likely causing more overall damage due to the fires of her everlasting lightning storms.

you misunderstand and it could be that I just worded myself poorly here but I'm not saying she doesn't have the DC, I said its true she has only shown 8-B DC on screen but that doesn't mean she doesn't have the DC or AP turn scaling above what we've seen as everything we see from her is very casual in terms of DC and no where implied to be her upper limits and as we established if anything has more evidence for it being higher than not.

Eh, I would need to see how that ranking system works for one, but if this is just in-game difficulty it indeed is not good for scaling.

I read it wrong before btw I used the Devola trench rating for Neu Hiraleon which is 5 stars different from the base version 4 stars which makes its strength stat weaker than Elektricitie but regardless the system I believe is based off of gameplay itself but does show some intent.

 

[Chariot190]

For one, notice how the giant monster destroys entire islands while Kat needs bombs to even just blow up the bridges between them.

Hate this.
it's a video game, why does Link need bombs but also

"but whataboutism", yes, indeed, but also games as a whole, plus i had it on hand so....

Gateway and progression items CAN be a anti-feat if they're deeply rooted in lore or acknowledged as caps by reliable sources, but based on what im seeing, it's just some fuckass mission that doesnt inherently cap her at all? Like by this logic she's isn't even 9-A, or hell even 9-B, doesn't take much to knock down a bridge.

 

[Dalesean027]

I've put in for that translation request now as well

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hate this.
it's a video game, why does Link need bombs but also

"but whataboutism", yes, indeed, but also games as a whole, plus i had it on hand so....

Gateway and progression items CAN be a anti-feat if they're deeply rooted in lore or acknowledged as caps by reliable sources, but based on what im seeing, it's just some fuckass mission that doesnt inherently cap her at all? Like by this logic she's isn't even 9-A, or hell even 9-B, doesn't take much to knock down a bridge.

The issue isn't "Kat needs a bomb to blow up a bridge, while at another part of the game she has a better feat". The issue is that this is in the fight against Neu Hiraleon itself and the entire point is that she's not strong enough to just stop Neu Hiraleon from destroying the islands the bridges connect.
If Kat needs a special tool to destroy a structure while 3 seconds later, 5 meter to the right, her opponent destroys a thousand times larger structure, that establishes pretty firmly how they compare in power.
It's quite simply that Kat can't destroy a thing Neu Hiraleon can destroy. Not even just by gameplay, but by the logic the plot follows, as that's entirely the plan they discuss.
That Sid points out that Neu Hiraleon wouldn't even be dented by those same bombs just further supports the power hierarchy here.

And remember: This is an anti-feat to a scaling with no direct evidence for it to begin with. It's not like anything at any point in time is stated or shown to match Neu Hiraleon in strength. With your feat Link has an actual on-screen reason to be stronger. Kat doesn't have that.

I'll respond to this later (this is actually the last part I typed but I don't have time to address this as of right now)


for now all I'll say is its just silly to use this one off anti-feat as much as he is when the game lets these characters do all this casually

Except those aren't random anti-feats to unrelated situations, those are feats that happen in direct context and comparison to Neu Hiraleon.
They are also relevant to the plot, as the specific power dynamic this establishes is the entire reason they take the actions they do in that specific boss fight.

And again, you have no evidence to even establish any scaling to begin with. The anti-feats aren't even that important, because there aren't even feats in favor of the scaling. They just drive the point home.

Your point if anything has just been actively denied, I'm powerful enough to create a world, but I'm not powerful enough to interfere in the world's order, is what is being said. The fact that his power is brought up and compared to the power to interfere makes this clear so I'm not sure of what you're meaning here. They are quite simply stating that energy required to create worlds < energy needed to change the fate of creation.

They are saying that after creation their powers can't change the world at a large scale. Even in one of their first meetings Kat already asks "If you're such a godd Creator, why don't you just save the town yourself?" Because he can't. He can't just use his power to defeat an enemy, even if Kat then does it shortly after.

So if Gade can't use that power to defeat relevant enemies, what makes you think that Lumino can use a part of the same power to defeat Raven? Raven who, after Kat, also happens to be the most relevant person to the fate of the world. The one that at that moment is specifically the only one that can fix things and is at the center of everything going wrong. Who is much more relevant than the random pocket dimension bosses which Gade apparently can't interfere with. When the same Creators consider it exhausting to even teleport Kat and Raven around too often.
Regardless of whether you agree with me that the Creator's powers are generally limited or if they only are not allowed to significantly alter events, it's clear that Lumino and Tenebra couldn't use universe level powers against a protagonist like Raven.

To all of that comes that their prior interference likely already cost them power, so we have no idea how much they have left in total.

The fact that if anything throughout both games they create more worlds makes this even more evident such as in GR1 when Cyanae creates a world from the fragments of Kat's subconscious.

Yeah, a small pocket dimension that is likely mental, not physical. Like, Kat considers it something like hypnosis.

Even with the arc situation Gade comments on the ark's explosive results breaking everything the way it did and freezing time makes it harder for him to "hold the world together" meaning the world is something he still actively is using his power to maintain.

Doesn't really pass our stabilization standards and, in this context, quite possibly means to keep the world from being harmed by the "bug" the Ark caused. Which the world is repairing itself from once the core issue is fixed. And if his power is used on that, he can't really use it on other things at the same time.
Case and point, even two Creators at once couldn't keep the world of Light and Darkness from collapsing for long.
And... y'know, the world continues to exist after Gade is erased from existence, meaning he definitely isn't a required stabilizer for it.

Also again you're taking this a completely different direction than what the game is saying, its not that interference in the world became hard after its creation, It is literally against the laws of the world that they created for them to for them to interfere in its FATE or else they will be erased. The creation of the world itself has literally 0 to do with any interference because there is no world made yet to interfere in, they can create worlds as they please to no consequence but actively changing the fate of things in that world as they please requires a power that even they don't have.

Yeah, but using their powers to do something in present time is interfering with the world. In fact, defeating Raven so that the bug can't be fixed would hugely interfere with the fate of the world as a whole. No matter how you spin it, their power can't be used in a battle against Raven.

They only begin to interfere with Fate because like they they are moved by the strength of Kat and humanity and do so against the laws of the world so its not even they're powers are dwindling in GR1

They are already interfering with the course of events then, so it should have already cost them power. Just that at the time they still had enough left to not disappear.

, the only big change happens in GR2 after everything with the arc and the manifestations of light and dark, that's when they actually have lost most of their powers after having them taken and having to make significant repairs to the world and time. Cyanae for example makes hasn't done any interference until the final couple of chapters of GR1 and even when she first does she's saying she'd hate to do any kind interfere but wants to protect the dream, so its certainly not like she's just been doing things to change fate up to this point as she doesn't even like the idea of doing so and the two times she does in the first game are minor bits of interference in freeing dusty and letting her know to tear a hole in space time to summon the arc with Gade, after that she literally says she's done interfering. By all rights her powers should not be dwindling to any insane degree as she hasn't done anything to cause them to do so as far as interference goes.

She also helped Kat down at the World Pillar, giving her the mind's eye ability. She got erased after giving Kat a quite similar ability in GR2 when defeating Elektricide.

You have no real measurement for how much these acts drain them. Remember, the act that ultimately erased Gade was opening a portal. Something he has done three times in GR1.
So it's not that these acts don't cost them significant power, it's just that at that time they still have enough reserves to not get erased. They almost certainly already were significantly weaker than at full strength in Raven's choice.

Sure I'll knock that out alongside some other statements for support if you'd be fine with giving the translation request time.

Sure.

Pretty sure it's implied she uses Gravity Gryphs to seal it in the first place and I'll provide translations like I said but Grpyhs is only obtained as she defeats the destructive force as we both know, the guide describes it as a transcendental form, they say she has obtained the ultimate gravity as she dives into the black hole with Xii and Dusty so its very likely to say she used Gryphs to seal it in the first place to do said sealing. Regardless though she uses the power they would have as a whole being anyways as whatever she does she does with a combination of both Xii and Dusty

That doesn't address the point at all?
Like, what I'm saying is that the Gravity Gryphs existence erasure technique clearly isn't enough as Kat needs to use a suicide move to take the Destructive Force Main Body down.
That and that the technique is specifically sealing hax.

The point is that due to these two reasons the defeat of the main body does not actually make Kat's regular techniques in any way comparable to the Main Body's strength, regardless of which form.
(Of course, as mentioned, the main body has no actual universe level feats anyway as it's destruction of the world is extremely slow)

this isn't evidence against the point at all and is hardly an argument. For one Panther mode's current justification only states that a combination of the two forms was used to defeat the Destructive force, two Raven's Phoenix Mode is directly stated to be equals to Kat's Panther mode so any feats she has that being those involving Lumino and Tenbria scales directly to Kat.

The combination thing doesn't work for mentioned reason.
The latter thing would work, except that the Phoenix Mode isn't universal due to already mentioned reasons.

Not necessarily as we know they disappear after she exits them and whatever happened down there anyways we know Xii came back to Raven right after so whose to say how Kat's ability even functioned in regards to that or how things actually happened inside or her being able to leave

Black holes just disappearing is actually also evidence against being real black holes.

you misunderstand and it could be that I just worded myself poorly here but I'm not saying she doesn't have the DC, I said its true she has only shown 8-B DC on screen but that doesn't mean she doesn't have the DC or AP turn scaling above what we've seen as everything we see from her is very casual in terms of DC and no where implied to be her upper limits and as we established if anything has more evidence for it being higher than not.

Thing is, before Raven and Kat fight her, and even before that, she is probably trying to destroy things. Would be weird to think she is hitting the whole city with lightning for other reasons.
But even if we ignore that, there is still the problem of her lacking any feats or direct comparisons that would substantiate that. All we have as basis is her being hyped up more, which isn't a lot.

And it still leaves the problems with whether she's physically as strong, or just her lightning, and if it's her lightning whether that scales giving our lightning standards.

 

[Chariot190]

However, the bigger problem is that the thing she fights isn't Low 2-C anyway. Honestly, the degree of destruction we see during the fight should make it obvious that its attacks are not "return the world to nothing"-level.

They don't need to show that? They just need to establish that's how strong they are, after that it's whatever, no verse ever would be expected to accurately show 1:1 levels of destruction every action. As long as it's set up beforehand, it's fine.

I hate to keep bringing up other verses, but a handful of your arguments are pretty encompassing and single out this game when it's actually no different, but... We don't complain when every punch of Freeza's doesn't evaporate a planet do we? Of course not, they already hype and establish him as doing such, they don't need to do so every action now, so just because he fights a dude and he punts him into a mountain, does he suddenly cap at mountain? No.

This applies to just about EVERY verse on the wiki, in spades. So what if they don't destroy a universe every blow?

The issue isn't "Kat needs a bomb to blow up a bridge, while at another part of the game she has a better feat".

Except that is your point? That's quite literally what you said.

The issue is that this is in the fight against Neu Hiraleon itself and the entire point is that she's not strong enough to just stop Neu Hiraleon from destroying the islands the bridges connect.

So? Based on the arguments im seeing, she doesnt even scale to the full feat, this just seems like straw manning and misconstruing what she's actually scaling to.

If Kat needs a special tool to destroy a structure while 3 seconds later, 5 meter to the right, her opponent destroys a thousand times larger structure, that establishes pretty firmly how they compare in power.

Not really, it's a video game. Why does Samus need missiles to blow up red door but SA-X 5 seconds later pulps a whole ass room + door? Using her equipment?

Games have mission structures and tasks. We know she doesn't need bombs to blow up the bridges because she breaks shit with more energy all the time. That very 8-B feat invalidates this argument. Skimming, im seeing a LOT of feats actually that she whips out that enable her to casually destroy the bridge tbh.

It's quite simply that Kat can't destroy a thing Neu Hiraleon can destroy.

But is that even true? Why the hell would she want to destroy it? Are you conflating "doesnt" with "cant"?

The bridge argument is just bad, given she can destroy them judging by even her most basic feats, so either, it's an anti-feat and she caps at 9-A (she doesn't), or it's just whatever and we handwave it. You can't ignore it for some feats and scaling, while also accepting feats above it anyway. You're cherry picking, we don't do that.

Not even just by gameplay, but by the logic the plot follows, as that's entirely the plan they discuss.

But she isn't even scaling to the whole thing but only what she actually ***** with?

That Sid points out that Neu Hiraleon wouldn't even be dented by those same bombs just further supports the power hierarchy here.

So? Bombs can't harm Ganon. Why does Link use bombs to blow up rock, then dude blows up like 50km, then Link literally eats his magic, overpowers him, and beats the shit out of him?

This is a super common occurrence in games. Now, stuff CAN be a anti-feat, but i havent seen any hard evidence that she 1. Actually cant do it. and 2. if it's a anti-feat, is it consistent enough to be used as a cap?

Both need to be true.

You pointed out how bombs that are below even Kat's basic punch, wouldn't hurt a dude she's not even scaling to in full anyway? What sort of argument is this? Like yeah, obviously, and? How does that affect anything? Rhetorical, it doesn't.

And remember: This is an anti-feat to a scaling with no direct evidence for it to begin with. It's not like anything at any point in time is stated or shown to match Neu Hiraleon in strength. With your feat Link has an actual on-screen reason to be stronger. Kat doesn't have that.

Except she does, even her basic kicks exceed that? That's what you don't get, if you ACTUALLY use the bombs as an anti-feat, well, then she's not even 9-A if she needs the bombs.

Even her metal box dive exceeds that. You can't cherry pick what it's an anti-feat for, either we use it and she can't even be 8-C, or we ignore it, especially given it doesn't even seem to be an actual cap and is just game because game do be a game before it's power scaling bullshit and in reality, one dive of hers would blow it the **** out based on what she's consistently shown at, at least.

As such, you can't use that as a "anti-feat" against the 7-C or whatever feat, you can't have your cake and eat it too dog.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This applies to just about EVERY verse on the wiki, in spades. So what if they don't destroy a universe every blow?

I do wanna put emphasis on this considering our whole AP =/= DC thing we put heavy emphasis on. Like, this is just going against standards atp

 

[Dalesean027]

Except those aren't random anti-feats to unrelated situations, those are feats that happen in direct context and comparison to Neu Hiraleon.
They are also relevant to the plot, as the specific power dynamic this establishes is the entire reason they take the actions they do in that specific boss fight.

And again, you have no evidence to even establish any scaling to begin with. The anti-feats aren't even that important, because there aren't even feats in favor of the scaling. They just drive the point home.

Gonna just have to agree to disagree with you here entirely, the mere fact that those specific nevi that control and hold together those arms are defeatable by Kat goes against this. Outside of gameplay Kat has shown Kat has shown to be able to harm Nevi without hitting their cores so you can't halfway agree that she can do so but then backtrack when it comes to the actual gameplay aspect of it which very specifically forces you to of course defeat Nevi by attacking their cores which is their whole gimmick anyways, that's literally the Nevi combat gameplay loop, its literally just game design to make the combat a bit more varied. She should by all rights scale to them for destroying them heck even the guidebook doesn't even treat them as being special hell they're not even apart of the actual Neu Hiraleon boss section of it they're just placed with regular Nevi and not even at same position as the actual stronger Nevi.

They are saying that after creation their powers can't change the world at a large scale. Even in one of their first meetings Kat already asks "If you're such a godd Creator, why don't you just save the town yourself?" Because he can't. He can't just use his power to defeat an enemy, even if Kat then does it shortly after.

So if Gade can't use that power to defeat relevant enemies, what makes you think that Lumino can use a part of the same power to defeat Raven? Raven who, after Kat, also happens to be the most relevant person to the fate of the world. The one that at that moment is specifically the only one that can fix things and is at the center of everything going wrong. Who is much more relevant than the random pocket dimension bosses which Gade apparently can't interfere with. When the same Creators consider it exhausting to even teleport Kat and Raven around too often.
Regardless of whether you agree with me that the Creator's powers are generally limited or if they only are not allowed to significantly alter events, it's clear that Lumino and Tenebra couldn't use universe level powers against a protagonist like Raven.

Please for the love of god send any direct statement for any of this. I can assure you it doesn't exist, fighting anyone would be interference in the world so of course they don't fight heck for all we know the moment they actually throw down with someone that could be worst for them than any of the minor bits of interreference they do here and there and instantly erase them. Like actually he's is literally quite specifically saying I'm powerful enough to create a world, but I'm not powerful enough to interfere in the world's order. There is no other logical way to read that without doing any other kinds of mental gymnastics.

Again they are erased for any direct interference with Fate and like you just said Raven's fate is almost directly tied to the center of everything which is why they say she specifically needs to be the one to fix everything cause her existence itself is at the heart of all of the problems with the arc that bled out hence them, making so Sachya never existed in the first place and ensuring the bus never fell through Raven cause once again if they changed that THEY WOULD DIE, that's kinda a major change to fate man which goes against the laws of the world.

Genuinely think for a second why would they fight enemies directly tied to the fates of those they are guiding and just get themselves killed for no reason, they know full well and believe in the capabilities of Kat and Raven.

Yeah, a small pocket dimension that is likely mental, not physical. Like, Kat considers it something like hypnosis.

Yeah and Kat is wrong here so what's even the point of mentioning it? Why would she have more authority than the literal creator who said they just made that world.

She also helped Kat down at the World Pillar, giving her the mind's eye ability. She got erased after giving Kat a quite similar ability in GR2 when defeating Elektricide.

You have no real measurement for how much these acts drain them. Remember, the act that ultimately erased Gade was opening a portal. Something he has done three times in GR1.
So it's not that these acts don't cost them significant power, it's just that at that time they still have enough reserves to not get erased. They almost certainly already were significantly weaker than at full strength in Raven's choice.

Kat obtained that power of her own means, Cyanae may have guided her but she did not directly give her said ability. Cyanae is specifically allowing Kat to piece together everything herself in the world she made is what awakened her minds eye, she tells Kat's she'll be the one who finds a way to save the children, all Kat has to do is face her own forgotten memories to do so and even then she's just awakening a power already inside of herself. This is no act of interference by any means and even Cyanae doesn't dictate it as such but if you find a official statement that is then by all means go for it but as far as things go it is not. Also your point here doesn't work yeah we have no real measurement for how much they are drained but they are never stated to be drained at all or have had any major decreases in their power until AFTER Lumnio and Tenebria absorbed their powers and combated Raven. Again all Cyanae does is two minor acts at the end of the game, Gade is on the same boat him opening portals for Kat in GR1 was not interference in the world as he was Kat's guide, he wouldn't tell her he can't do anything but can also take her to where she needs to be as well. The only time Gade has a real act of interference is once again like Cyanae at the end of the game when he summons the ark from allowing her to tear a whole in space time, in no other scenario is he directly interfering in Kat's fate he is quite literally her guide through it all in the first game, it is specifically stated even that they're fate are intertwined so him helping her in the first game for 90% of it was him following alongside the fate of the world. They didn't call him the man of her destiny in game one for no reason.

Black holes just disappearing is actually also evidence against being real black holes.

Not at all brother, and not to bring up other series but like half the people on the wiki who we consider as having real black holes that they can spawn don't just keeping them around destroying all of their surroundings forever. they usually disappear after they are done with the attack. Take Megaman or Samus. You're being incredible finnicky about our standards here in a way you're not showing for much else and ignoring that these are fictional games. Hell the black holes here in GR have more evidence of being black holes than both of the examples I've mentioned given the time dilation aspect of them.

Thing is, before Raven and Kat fight her, and even before that, she is probably trying to destroy things. Would be weird to think she is hitting the whole city with lightning for other reasons.
But even if we ignore that, there is still the problem of her lacking any feats or direct comparisons that would substantiate that. All we have as basis is her being hyped up more, which isn't a lot.

And it still leaves the problems with whether she's physically as strong, or just her lightning, and if it's her lightning whether that scales giving our lightning standards.

probably isn't good enough mate, we see her gleefully smiling throughout several points as she is super casual and clearly not trying her hardest to literally delete every bit of land around her what are ya on about. To be frank you have no real proof against her statements when she's only shown casual blast and has lore putting her even higher. Her statements are solid here in this case and she has plenty of them heck one of the literal creators as well as the destructive force both say what she is capable of so what are we even actually discussing she has THE most credible sources backing her, this isn't even a discussion in all honesty. She has quite literally no anti-feats, everything she's shown is casual, and has only statements suggesting a much higher levels of power.