Alright, here is my summary on the Low 2-C matter.
I will separate it into two sections, as we have two scaling chains towards Low 2-C:
- Destruction Force Main Body -> Destructive Force Avatar -> Kat (Panther & Gryps Mode)
- Creators (Ancient) -> Creators (Modern Day) -> Lumino & Tenebria -> Raven (Phoenix Mode)
I will call the first the Kat chain and the latter the Raven chain, by the protagonist they apply to. Of course, the protagonists scale to each, so in practice which one is used doesn't matter. As I will show both are faulty, though. I will also make a third section on ways the current scaling contradicts other showings in the verse, especially the scaling logic.
Raven Chain
As Dalesean established, the basic idea of the Raven scaling chain is that the ancient Creators were Low 2-C due to creating the universe. Assuming the modern ones are as well, the part of their powers Lumino and Tenebria stole should also be Low 2-C. Then Raven, who defeated them, should likewise be Low 2-C.
This has two major problems.
- The modern Creators are weaker and likely not Low 2-C.
- The Creators have a limit where their power can't be used to interfere with the fate of the world. As a protagonist, Raven is massively relevant to that fate, meaning that her being defeated by Lumino & Tenebria using the Creator powers would be exactly what doesn't work due to said limitation.
Let's get into the details.
The Creators aren't Low 2-C anymore
Dalesean did a lot of work for me here in his summary, but I will briefly establish the facts again anyways.
The Creators created the world, but
they can't interfere with fate at a large scale anymore. It's against their laws and doing that would get them erased.
It's on creation to create it's own fate. As Kat asks early on:
If Gade is a Creator of the world, why doesn't he just defeat the boss of the Rift Planes himself instead of sending Kat? Well, simple, because he can't do that.
Now, once the Creators have lost power from interfering with fate, it doesn't seem like they get it back.
After the Raven's Choice DLC they say that they need to save up what little they have left.
And have they already lost some power? Contrary to what Dalesean says, we can be pretty sure they have.
The clearest case is Gade. Why?
Well, the thing that actually tips him over and erases him is him opening a portal for Kat. So opening a portal for Kat = interference with fate that costs the last remaining power he uses to sustain his existence.
Thing is, in Gravity Rush 1, Gade does exactly that many times.
Here for example he opens a portal into a pocket dimension for her so that she can save part of the city.
The same thing happens two times afterwards.
One case of Cyanea is also pretty clear cut. She says clearly that interference with fate is happening when she saves Kat by blowing up that device.
Personally,
I would also count the time she creates a dream to make Kat find one of her powers. It's not clearly stated at that time, but given that Kat could only save the children through that ability, I would argue that it clearly changed fate to some extent. Certainly changed the fate of those children immensely.
That the Creators
can't hold together the world of Light and Darkness indicates that they have grown weaker as well. Sure, the world is collapsing because the element of light and darkness are gone, but... as the Creators of the world they should have created those to begin with, so is that really a problem if they are at full power? Also, they can use their powers to keep it existing for a short time, so it's not that their powers are inherently incompatible with the task either.
Debunking Counter arguments
Dalesean brings up a couple of feats, which he believes are universe level and hence proof that the Creators are still universe level at the time Lumino and Tenebrea steal their powers. I will address them in this section.
First, there is the feat of Cyanea creation a world made from Kat's subconsciousness.
Kat compares it to hypnosis. Like, it's obviously a mental world existing in Kat's head. That's mind control, not universe level reality warping.
Next, there is Gade's feat of "
holding the world together". Dalesean basically explains the issue with this already.
Gade is erased towards the end and nothing happens to the world. Whether it is due to the dreams of humankind or not, fact is that he is not required for the universe's existence.
So the "hold the world together" is said in context of that specific situation. As Dalesean already explained, the Ark incident caused a bug in reality that stopped time and threatened to damage the world. In this context, what Gade means is likely that he uses his power to stop or slow further damage from that incident to the world before it is repaired. He isn't doing that alone.
The world is trying to repair itself on its own. Gade only really needs to put up enough power here to to balance the scale between the "bug" in reality and the universe's own regeneration. He isn't stabilizing the universe nor is he containing a universe level explosion by his own power or anything.
In short, this isn't a Low 2-C feat.
It also happens shortly before the fight with Lumino and Tenebria, so arguably all power he used on this they actually lack after absorbing his power.
Creator Powers are extremely weakened against Raven
Dalesean again did a lot of set-up for me here. So again, I will just give a brief summary.
The Creator's can't use their powers to change someone's fate. As mentioned above, this includes things like defeating the bosses to save parts of the city.
And Raven? Well, Raven is extremely relevant to the fate of the world. Heck,
she is a part of the protagonist that was split off by fate itself.
Obviously defeating her would result in the bug in reality not being fixed and, later on, the Destructive Force not being defeated. No larger change in fate is imaginable. So it's painfully obvious that the restriction of changing fate would prevent Creator powers to be used to their full power against Raven. We know powers can be used to a low potency to change fate (Gade making portals, Cyanea destroying the device), but they can't wield it to just defeat Raven. Something which Dalesean seems to agree with, going into greater detail:
I genuinely have no idea why he writes that as a counter-argument to me, if that is exactly what I am saying.
I suppose the difference is that Dalesean doesn't extend this property to the powers after Lumino and Tenebria stole them. But, well,
in their fight they did no impressive feat.
We are told that Raven can not defeat them without Phoenix Mode, but that alone doesn't mean an infinite difference in power. It only means that they became powerful enough for Raven to need additional power to win.
And, well, as shown above the Creators can use their powers to interfere with fate in a minor way. So against Raven that would result in a minor power-up. Things like how they
seemingly boosted their regeneration to make it so that Raven can't defeat them without the power-up.
But it stands to reason that Lumino and Tenebria can't use the Creator's powers to break the laws of the world, that prevent interference with fate, in more severe ways than the Creators themselves. Otherwise gifting someone their powers would let the Creator's resolve everything immediately.
So, yeah... Lumino and Tenebria shouldn't be infinitely stronger than they were before in the fight with Raven. Both logic and depiction of the battle indicate this.
Kat Chain
Kat's scaling chain has four main problems:
- The Destructive Force Main Body's destruction of the world is too slow to qualify for a Low 2-C rating
- Gravity Rush has a strange cosmology which puts into question how large the world is
- The Destructive Force Main Body has no UES to justify the avatar scaling to it.
- Kat defeats the main body and avatar through hax.
Let's get into the details.
Too Slow Destruction
As Dalesean established the Destructive Force Main Body is a black hole. That black hole destroys the world. However, we know from what we see that it does so extremely slowly.
In most locations (e.g. Jirga Para Lhao) we see no effects of the destruction at all during the game. So it's clearly not progressing fast there, if any significant effect has reached it at all.
The only location of which we know how it is destroyed is the World Pillar, i.e. the big main realm of the cosmology.
We know that is getting destroyed by the black hole gradually pulling it in. It specifically happens so slowly that nobody even notices.
Just a little every day.
We can put a number on how slowly as well.
We see the black hole when we get down to
Boutoume. We can tell how far below Hekseville Boutoume is,
because we climb down there in gameplay. It's a few kilometers.
After that scene, at least three years pass until the end of Gravity Rush 2. Yet, during that whole time, the black hole doesn't even reach Hekseville.
So yes, the Destructive Force Main Body is destroying the whole world. Without intervention, it will eventually succeed in doing that. But
eventually is countless years away. The rate of destruction is a few kilometers per year at most, with no evidence suggesting anything faster.
Destroying the world that slowly can't be the grounds for a Low 2-C rating.
Strange Cosmology
Gravity Rush doesn't feature planets. Instead, everyone lives either on the
World Pillar or on
floating islands. Of course, looking in the sky allows one to see a sun or even stars. The question is, though: If planets aren't a thing, are those actually giant celestial bodies that are cosmic distances away or are they light sources of a different nature?
Avatar Doesn't Scale
To explain the relevance of this I will first need to briefly summarize how the fight against the Destructive Force goes.
Here is a full video of the fight, for those who wish to check what I say in person.
Kat starts to fight it in Base form and tanks a hit in a cutscene in that form. She does some damage to the Avatar's cores, but it doesn't die. She then does some more fighting. The Avatar fires an energy beam to do some minor environmental damage. Kat destroys a central core using the Panther Mode. Turns out, it doesn't die from that either. From that point on Kat can deal no more damage and gets defeated. But the power of the people gives her new power and she combines her power with those of Raven to enter Gryps mode. After that, she erases the Avatar from existence.
Shortly after she leaves to seal the Destructive Force in a black hole.
What's the problem here? Well, for one, if this Avatar were Low 2-C it would mean Kat's base form would have Low 2-C durability for tanking that claw strike at the beginning.
Luckily, there is no reason to believe that. The Destructive Force has no known Universal Energy System. Hence, there is no reason to believe that the Avatar would share the stats that result from the Main Body's black hole's gravitational pull or from... whatever it does to the pocket dimensions.
It fights using claws and energy beams, which are completely separate things. So with nothing like Mana being around that could fuel both, those are just unrelated things and don't scale.
The only win is via Hax
As already said, Kat's base and Panther forms deal no relevant damage to the Avatar of the Destructive Force. They both can crush its cores, but do nothing to it beyond that.
Kat defeats it once she enters
Gryps Mode. However, the only attack she does in that mode is one that sends a lot of astral panthers and ravens at the Avatar, which then disappear into its body and erase it from existence. As that's pure hax, it doesn't scale to Kat's stats at all.
As for the defeat of the main body: Kat doesn't fight it. She just goes down and in a suicide move imprisons it in a black hole.
The epilogue suggests that she might actually manage to escape a year later, but it's still a long time.
This is
- a victory purely due to black hole-based sealing hax.
- a special technique that clearly is far beyond her usual powers, given that it at minimum takes her out for a year.
In any case, it can't be used as evidence of her scaling to the Destructive Force.
Contradictions
In this section, I will explain two big contradictions of the proposed ratings.
Gade can be harmed by Raven
Here Raven hurts Gade in her Base form. Notice that the proposal for the base form is 7-C. (infinite stats for it would result in lots of contradictions)
This means for one that Gade's proposed Low 2-C reality warping stats can't apply to him physically, but also strongly supports that he can't use them against someone as involved in the fate of the world as Raven. Otherwise, why would he allow her to hurt him so much that he cries out in pain and collapses on the road?
Dalesean doesn't really bring up a counterpoint to this, other than that it conflicts with Raven's other showings. I have addressed those above already.
One I will respond to directly is the statement that Lumino and Tenebria can't be defeated by Base Raven, after she absorbs Gade and Cyanae's powers: As already established the Creators have done things to aid Kat and Raven. Those things cost them, draining their power and eventually erasing them completely, but they can do small things to interfere with fate. So it's not further surprising that Lumino and Tenebria with Creator powers would be stronger than their base forms. But that's all we're told. That they are stronger. Not that they are
infinitely stronger.
It doesn't need an infinite power boost for a strong opponent to become so strong that you can't defeat them without gaining upgrades yourself.
So this doesn't contradict the point.
Base and Panther/Phoenix Mode harm the same opponents without oneshotting
In the Kali Angel bossfight you can harm her both in Base form and she can survive attacks from you in Panther Mode. Raven also participates in Phoenix Mode. Given that it's proposed that Panther and Phoenix Mode are infinitely stronger than the base form, that seems like a contradiction.
Cecie also
blocks an attack from them in Panther and Phoenix Made, which is weird for someone that by current rankings is 7-C.
Now, Dalesean brings up the followings point against that:
Now, first, regular enemies being able to withstand the mode is actually no issue for my point. Because the point I make is that it is
not infinitely stronger than her base mode. The super mode is stronger her regular mode, just not strong enough to oneshot everything her base form can harm.
Next, we have the suggestion that this is just game mechanics at play. There are lots of things speaking against that.
First, do the developers actually control very precisely when you can use the ability in which capacity. First,
Kat can not actually use it at all times, but only when certain conditions are unlocked. And,
according to IGN, can only be activated during certain battles, which aligns with all I have seen. Basically, you can only activate it against strong opponents.
At the same time, if the game wants you to be in Panther Mode due to plot,
it will just force you to activate it and keep you in it.
So there are fights where you can't use it, fights where you have to use it and fights where usage is optional. That all these exist, IMO suggests an intention that the opponents fought with optional Panther Mode can be harmed in either state.
Next, the Kali Angel fight ends with a cutscene.
In that cutscene, Kat and Raven start already transformed into Panther and Phoenix Mode. This indicates that, if they canonically were supposed to fight Kali Angel in one of the two states, that state was the Panther & Phoenix Mode. Yet, in the same cutscene, we see missiles from the military harm Kali. So
Yunica would scale to the Panther mode and... well, from there Base Kat as well.
I will note that during the cutscene they "one shot" Kali, as Dalesean puts it, only because the missiles reveal her core which Kat and Raven then attack together. It doesn't support that the modes would oneshot her during a regular fight.
Raven
is also stated to be able to damage Lumino and Tenebria with absorbed powers in Base Mode, just not enough to defeat them. It will make them lose some of their power, though, which then goes towards Raven('s memory). So is she damaging infinitely stronger beings? In gameplay she also can tank attacks from them.
Is that contradiction still not clear enough? Then let's look at the Elektricide fight.
As already shown, that fights forces you to fight Elektricide in Panther Mode in the beginning. Raven also
attacks her in Phoenix mode before that which Elektricide actually survives, contrary to Dalesean's explanation.
Then it
specifically makes you run out of that power during a cutscene. In the fight that follows you are supposed to fight her in the base mode. Specifically,
you are made to throw missiles at her.
Regular weaponry.
Mid-fight a cutscene plays
which shows Kat in base form.
For the finisher Kat transform back into Panther mode then.
So the cutscenes show very specifically how the fight goes. It starts with Elektricide being hit by Panther Mode Kat, then continues by her fighting Elektricide in base using missiles and stuff, then finishes in Panther Mode. Even disregarding all gameplay completely, the game shows that both forms are involved in this fight. If they were infinitely far apart in power, this would be impossible. Either Panther Mode would oneshot, or Base Mode would do no damage and get oneshot.
In conclusion, do we know from what the game tells us that Base and Panther mode can only have a finite difference in power. Panther Mode can be stronger, but not millions of times stronger or more.
Tags
@DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest @SamanPatou @Everything12 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Armorchompy @Agnaa @Deagonx
Tagging you guys here as well, so that you see my and Dalesean's summary.
Like this is just headcanon dude, I'm not denying the possibility (granted this is a pretty long reach) *but you can't sell it as 100% factual.
