Gravity Rush Downgrades

[Chariot190]

DBZ movies aren't made entirely by Toriyama. Not even close to it. This book is made by the game staff.

He's helped design, but cool. Eyes of heaven, supervised and co-developed with author, can fit in due to timeline fuckery, also 100% not canon.

Or the ten fucktillion Metroid and Zelda stuff. Link's mother a tree? Blood of the Chozo? Both officially developed and drawn comics, that got retconned.

Point is, it fits into canon well, which you wanted to know.

Youre dodging the questions. That also isnt what i wanted to know. i dont care if it can fit, i want to know if it actually is.

They do mention it, though? It says the illustrations are made by the team and the team mentions the book and how "I hope that our passion comes through in the concept art we made to create the world that is Gravity Rush."

Wait? That's your argument? That's what you meant? ignoring the fact it's an ARTBOOK, so yeah, they had a hand in that.

That says NOTHING about that comic's canonicity at this point in time. Hell they could've made it, hell they did make it, that doesn't tell us if it's outdated or not.

It's also the interview made for the occassion of the book being published, in my understanding.

So?

The interview also mentions both games, which should really answer your question about it being from before the game.

No? Them shoving every piece of official art they've done in a book, doesnt mean all of it is canon still. Every game artbook does that, and every game artbook features outdated art by proxy, whether it's the Metroid Prime artbook having old retconned concept art, Hyrule Historia having a tie-in comic that features the MS, before the MS even existed... And more.

Youre not giving me reason to believe why this comic of dubious canonicity, holds up after launch based on the discrepancies im seeing.

I did.

You literally didnt and have still failed to do so.

No.

Then why am i seeing several?

It doesn't predate the games. Artbook is from March 21st 2017, GR2 was released on the 18th of January 2017.

"Gravity Days is one of the two comic series that was used in the promotion of Gravity Rush, the other being Gravity Daydream. It was a four part special each containing two comic pages, showing Kat's every day life in Hekseville. A special comic with four pages was released in the Special Fan Book of Gravity Rush, detailing an interaction between Kat, Raven, Gade and Yunica.

The Gravity Daze Series Official Art Book also included all of issues in the comic, but it is written in Japanese."

You basically just lied to me.

The comic predates them, it's just archived and compiled in a recent book, that's beyond dishonest. Extremely actually, do it again and I'm reporting, a bureaucrat like you shouldn't be dodging questions and pulling this shit.

Nothing has been retconned.

Then why the discrepancy?

Yes.

Why lie? This, at the very least, i know 100% is false, im seeing inconsistencies by just skimming?

There is no newer stuff.

The game?

It does.

You didnt even comment on the example? **** up with that?

Not a good sign.

Funny that you say that. The guidebook is from the 24th of Feburary 2017. So it's actually the older source of information. The newest source of information is the artbook.

Yeah, funny how youre lying about when the comic actually came out and the context in which it's in the artbook.

A fact you know by the way because Dale's mentioned it directly.

So again, please ask these questions about the guidebook, not the artbook. The guidebook has less evidence for being canon.

Also not how it works, supplementary material, also needs to be corroborated by the source material.

 

[Chariot190]

As a fyi, im gonna need to see explicit proof now. So kat and Gade(?) recognized Raven immediately due to the prior encounter? Link that. What about the Lumino fight? How's that make sense if old man is actual fodder?
Why never mention it?

Actual proof for all your shit now please.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't really see the point in this argument considering both are relative to each other's release and while the comic you're mentioning was imported into the art book upon its release that doesn't change the fact that it specifically predates the first game as a promotional comic, the art book itself can be up to date with that comic being outdated these aren't mutually exclusive but regardless I've addressed the point in my argument anyways. Any who I'm finding this kind of argument to be entirely disingenuous when the official guidebooks for both of the games are officially licensed products from playstation.

If it weren't canonical they wouldn't have included it in the artbook at that point.
But yeah, personally I agree that both should be considered canon. It's Chariot that is insistent on pursuing this argument.

He's helped design, but cool. Eyes of heaven, supervised and co-deveped with author, can fit in due to timeline fuckery, as 100% not canon.

Things created by the official staff are considered canon by default.

Or the ten fucktillion Metroid and Zelda stuff. Link's mother a tree? Blood of the Chozo? Both officially developed and drawn comics, that go retconned.

Due to featuring things that can not be reconciled with canon, I assume, which we don't have here.

Youre dodging the questions. That also isnt what i wanted to know. i dont care if it can fit, i want to know if it actually is.

There's no difference between the two?

Wait? That's your argument? That's what you meant? ignoring the fact it's an ARTBOOK, so yeah, they had a hand in that.

That says NOTHING about that comic's canonicity at this point in time. Hell they could've made it, hell they did make it, that doesn't tell us if it's outdated or not.

If you want to consider a work by the original creators as outdated, you need evidence that it is. Burden of proof is on you.

No? Them shoving every piece of official art they've done in a book, doesnt mean all of it is canon still. Every game artbook does that, and every game artbook features outdated art by proxy, whether it's the Metroid Prime artbook having old retconned concept art, Hyrule Historia having a tie-in comic that features the MS, before the MS even existed... And more.

Youre not giving me reason to believe why this comic of dubious canonicity, holds up after launch based on the discrepancies im seeing.

There are no discrepancies.
And no, if they considered it outdated they wouldn't feature the story.

Then why am i seeing several?

Because your view of things don't align with the facts?

"Gravity Days is one of the two comic series that was used in the promotion of Gravity Rush, the other being Gravity Daydream. It was a four part special each containing two comic pages, showing Kat's every day life in Hekseville. A special comic with four pages was released in the Special Fan Book of Gravity Rush, detailing an interaction between Kat, Raven, Gade and Yunica.

The Gravity Daze Series Official Art Book also included all of issues in the comic, but it is written in Japanese."

You basically just lied to me.

The comic predates them, it's just archived and compiled in a recent book, that's beyond dishonest. Extremely actually, do it again and I'm reporting, a bureaucrat like you shouldn't be dodging questions and pulling this shit.

You're assuming I knew that, which I didn't. But again, they wouldn't have included it if they considered it non-canon at this point.

Then why the discrepancy?

No discrepancy exists if you accept that Creator powers can't be wielded against relevant people, which is my point.

Why lie? This, at the very least, i know 100% is false, im seeing inconsistencies by just skimming?

I see no inconsistencies.

You didnt even comment on the example? **** up with that?

Ehm, I thought it's obvious but I guess it isn't. This comic in-universe timeline wise is not preceeding the events of GR1. It's happening somewhere in the middle of it. I guess you assumed it is due to the publishing date of the comic?
I didn't comment because I figured you were just making a strange shot in the dark for what could be a contradiction.

A fact you know by the way because Dale's mentioned it directly.

I hadn't read all of his summary at the time of commenting, as I was procedually working my way through it while writing my own.

Also not how it works, supplementary material, also needs to be corroborated by the source material.

Funny you say that. In that case I suppose you have problems with the scan saying the Darkness is destroying Jigra Para Lhao since IIRC nothing in canon indicates that?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Anyway, I will focus on the summary for now. No further replies on that issue for the time being.

 

[Chariot190]

If it weren't canonical they wouldn't have included it in the artbook at that point.

Except they aren't? Do you not know what art books are for? For art, would be dumb if they didn't include art they had archived because nerds on the internet might use it on a battle-boarding forum.

Like, i have a JoJo artbook, and it has ****** Baoh in it
And a SF one that has Darkstalkers
Pokemon one that has Pikachu in a Mario outfit

You get the point, art books feature art, new, old, outdated, never before seen, etc, the mere fact, art is in an arbook, is not evidence of it being canon.

But yeah, personally I agree that both should be considered canon. It's Chariot that is insistent on pursuing this argument.

Of course, it needs to check out. That goes for everything.

Things created by the official staff are considered canon by default.

That, isn't true? if shigeru miyamoto drew a pic of mario benching the planet and it was in a artbook or something, that wouldn't be canon to what's actually being indexed. Or hell, newhalf Samus anyone?

Due to featuring things that can not be reconciled with canon, I assume, which we don't have here.

And yet, that's precisely what im seeing. You keep saying it checks out, prove it? When does it even happen? Why never mention it?

There's no difference between the two?

Yes there is, what? Broly can fit neatly into DBZ's canon, just because it can, doesn't mean it is.

If you want to consider a work by the original creators as outdated, you need evidence that it is. Burden of proof is on you.

Uh yeah, how about the actual contradictions to it? The moment a contradiction shows up, that's on you now.

There are no discrepancies.

What are you talking about?

And no, if they considered it outdated they wouldn't feature the story.

Yes they would? it's an artbook archiving all official art. They'd include everything, because it's art, in a artbook?

Because your view of things don't align with the facts?

What facts? Youve shown or said nothing beyond "nuh uh it checks out", hell some of what you said has been objectively wrong?

You're assuming I knew that, which I didn't. But again, they wouldn't have included it if they considered it non-canon at this point.

You did?

Edit: nevermind it seems that's from the Gravity Days promotional fan comic but idk how valid that'd be considered its events are never referenced in the games or the official guide books

And then you said
"It's from the first official artbook. I see no reason it would be less official than the guidebook you use as evidence, given that both are official books."

You were TOLD what it was from, replied to it, and just went "nuh uh actually". Nothing new was said, you knew, you were told.

And again, it's an artbook, why are you treating it as some lore book? it isn't, it's an artbook. Hell the fact it has outdated concept art is proof alone, is it not? Should we use outdated or retconned designs and ideas because they are included so they must be canon?

No discrepancy exists if you accept that Creator powers can't be wielded against relevant people, which is my point.

"There's no discrepency if you ignore this one here (among others)"

Not a good argument, your point, is self-fulfilling, yeah if you ignore what makes your point not hold up, it'd hold up.

I see no inconsistencies.

Ok, let's look at a basic one, not even plot, just power wise one.

Why does Kat, being amped by a creator's power, enable her to mog dudes, that she can't do anything against explicitly under her own power, yet even her base form is apparently so far above the creators that she can casually ohko them as did raven?

What should we take? The actual game, or the dubious comic? Dont reply to that, that was rhetorical.

Ehm, I thought it's obvious but I guess it isn't. This comic in-universe timeline wise is not preceeding the events of GR1. It's happening somewhere in the middle of it.

That's understandable, ok.
When exactly tho? Show me where it happens in game.

I guess you assumed it is due to the publishing date of the comic?
I didn't comment because I figured you were just making a strange shot in the dark for what could be a contradiction.

So, even worse. A comic, that happens in the middle of a game, we play through but this event is never shown, seen, talked about, or referenced?

So if I look through the game, and Kat goes "damn last time i seen raven -", she'd be talking about this event and not the events we see in game? When did Kat even have time to do this?

I hadn't read all of his summary at the time of commenting, as I was procedually working my way through it while writing my own.

Yeah, don't do that? Actually read what people say before typing up an argument

Funny you say that. In that case I suppose you have problems with the scan saying the Darkness is destroying Jigra Para Lhao since IIRC nothing in canon indicates that?

Of course, I don't. They state it, but nothing contradicts it. it's fine.
Not the same as a comic that came out before the game was even finished, apparently having an interaction never talked about or shown, that just so happens to happen in the middle of the game, involving the character we play as getting stomped? Yet she never acknowledges it when she sees raven again?

As said, all im seeing, is a pre-launch comic, of dubious canonicity, that doesn't really fit and has contradictions to later established facts, being used, because it was featured in a book featuring all the verse's art?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, here is my summary on the Low 2-C matter.

I will separate it into two sections, as we have two scaling chains towards Low 2-C:

• Destruction Force Main Body -> Destructive Force Avatar -> Kat (Panther & Gryps Mode)
• Creators (Ancient) -> Creators (Modern Day) -> Lumino & Tenebria -> Raven (Phoenix Mode)

I will call the first the Kat chain and the latter the Raven chain, by the protagonist they apply to. Of course, the protagonists scale to each, so in practice which one is used doesn't matter. As I will show both are faulty, though. I will also make a third section on ways the current scaling contradicts other showings in the verse, especially the scaling logic.

Raven Chain​

As Dalesean established, the basic idea of the Raven scaling chain is that the ancient Creators were Low 2-C due to creating the universe. Assuming the modern ones are as well, the part of their powers Lumino and Tenebria stole should also be Low 2-C. Then Raven, who defeated them, should likewise be Low 2-C.
This has two major problems.

1. The modern Creators are weaker and likely not Low 2-C.
2. The Creators have a limit where their power can't be used to interfere with the fate of the world. As a protagonist, Raven is massively relevant to that fate, meaning that her being defeated by Lumino & Tenebria using the Creator powers would be exactly what doesn't work due to said limitation.

Let's get into the details.

The Creators aren't Low 2-C anymore​

Dalesean did a lot of work for me here in his summary, but I will briefly establish the facts again anyways.

The Creators created the world, but they can't interfere with fate at a large scale anymore. It's against their laws and doing that would get them erased. It's on creation to create it's own fate. As Kat asks early on: If Gade is a Creator of the world, why doesn't he just defeat the boss of the Rift Planes himself instead of sending Kat? Well, simple, because he can't do that.

Now, once the Creators have lost power from interfering with fate, it doesn't seem like they get it back. After the Raven's Choice DLC they say that they need to save up what little they have left.

And have they already lost some power? Contrary to what Dalesean says, we can be pretty sure they have.

The clearest case is Gade. Why? Well, the thing that actually tips him over and erases him is him opening a portal for Kat. So opening a portal for Kat = interference with fate that costs the last remaining power he uses to sustain his existence.
Thing is, in Gravity Rush 1, Gade does exactly that many times. Here for example he opens a portal into a pocket dimension for her so that she can save part of the city.
The same thing happens two times afterwards.

One case of Cyanea is also pretty clear cut. She says clearly that interference with fate is happening when she saves Kat by blowing up that device.

Personally, I would also count the time she creates a dream to make Kat find one of her powers. It's not clearly stated at that time, but given that Kat could only save the children through that ability, I would argue that it clearly changed fate to some extent. Certainly changed the fate of those children immensely.

That the Creators can't hold together the world of Light and Darkness indicates that they have grown weaker as well. Sure, the world is collapsing because the element of light and darkness are gone, but... as the Creators of the world they should have created those to begin with, so is that really a problem if they are at full power? Also, they can use their powers to keep it existing for a short time, so it's not that their powers are inherently incompatible with the task either.

Debunking Counter arguments​

Dalesean brings up a couple of feats, which he believes are universe level and hence proof that the Creators are still universe level at the time Lumino and Tenebrea steal their powers. I will address them in this section.

First, there is the feat of Cyanea creation a world made from Kat's subconsciousness. Kat compares it to hypnosis. Like, it's obviously a mental world existing in Kat's head. That's mind control, not universe level reality warping.

Next, there is Gade's feat of "holding the world together". Dalesean basically explains the issue with this already.

Speaking of stabilization OP makes about Gade and how my argument wouldn't work about him holding the world together as he said he is doing here but to start , no Gade is not a required stabilizer for the world because as they say in the end the world is essentially in the hands of humanity at the end of the game, the world is created by the dreams of humankind is the parting message they leave Kat after all and when confronted with the darkness that threatens to return the world to nothing, that threatens the fabric of the universe."

Gade is erased towards the end and nothing happens to the world. Whether it is due to the dreams of humankind or not, fact is that he is not required for the universe's existence.
So the "hold the world together" is said in context of that specific situation. As Dalesean already explained, the Ark incident caused a bug in reality that stopped time and threatened to damage the world. In this context, what Gade means is likely that he uses his power to stop or slow further damage from that incident to the world before it is repaired. He isn't doing that alone. The world is trying to repair itself on its own. Gade only really needs to put up enough power here to to balance the scale between the "bug" in reality and the universe's own regeneration. He isn't stabilizing the universe nor is he containing a universe level explosion by his own power or anything.
In short, this isn't a Low 2-C feat.
It also happens shortly before the fight with Lumino and Tenebria, so arguably all power he used on this they actually lack after absorbing his power.

Creator Powers are extremely weakened against Raven​

Dalesean again did a lot of set-up for me here. So again, I will just give a brief summary.

The Creator's can't use their powers to change someone's fate. As mentioned above, this includes things like defeating the bosses to save parts of the city.
And Raven? Well, Raven is extremely relevant to the fate of the world. Heck, she is a part of the protagonist that was split off by fate itself.
Obviously defeating her would result in the bug in reality not being fixed and, later on, the Destructive Force not being defeated. No larger change in fate is imaginable. So it's painfully obvious that the restriction of changing fate would prevent Creator powers to be used to their full power against Raven. We know powers can be used to a low potency to change fate (Gade making portals, Cyanea destroying the device), but they can't wield it to just defeat Raven. Something which Dalesean seems to agree with, going into greater detail:

OP tries to make this argument about how the creators are too weak and don't actually have the means to fight or do anything themself which is why they don't interfere as you'll see below this but once again so lets tackle this

For one there are absolutely no direct statement for any of this. I can assure you it doesn't exist, fighting anyone would be interference in the world so of course they don't fight heck for all we know the moment they actually throw down with someone that could be worst for them than any of the minor bits of interreference they do here and there and instantly erase them.

Again they are erased for any direct interference with Fate and like you just said Raven's fate is almost directly tied to the center of everything which is why they say she specifically needs to be the one to fix everything cause her existence itself is at the heart of all of the problems with the arc that bled out hence them, making so Sachya never existed in the first place and ensuring the bus never fell through Raven cause once again if they changed that THEY WOULD DIE, that's kinda a major change to fate man which goes against the laws of the world.

Genuinely think for a second why would they fight enemies directly tied to the fates of those they are guiding and just get themselves killed for no reason, they know full well and believe in the capabilities of Kat and Raven. None of this train of logic works for any kind of debunk as its flawed at its core.

I genuinely have no idea why he writes that as a counter-argument to me, if that is exactly what I am saying.

I suppose the difference is that Dalesean doesn't extend this property to the powers after Lumino and Tenebria stole them. But, well, in their fight they did no impressive feat.
We are told that Raven can not defeat them without Phoenix Mode, but that alone doesn't mean an infinite difference in power. It only means that they became powerful enough for Raven to need additional power to win.
And, well, as shown above the Creators can use their powers to interfere with fate in a minor way. So against Raven that would result in a minor power-up. Things like how they seemingly boosted their regeneration to make it so that Raven can't defeat them without the power-up.
But it stands to reason that Lumino and Tenebria can't use the Creator's powers to break the laws of the world, that prevent interference with fate, in more severe ways than the Creators themselves. Otherwise gifting someone their powers would let the Creator's resolve everything immediately.

So, yeah... Lumino and Tenebria shouldn't be infinitely stronger than they were before in the fight with Raven. Both logic and depiction of the battle indicate this.

Kat Chain​

Kat's scaling chain has four main problems:

1. The Destructive Force Main Body's destruction of the world is too slow to qualify for a Low 2-C rating
2. Gravity Rush has a strange cosmology which puts into question how large the world is
3. The Destructive Force Main Body has no UES to justify the avatar scaling to it.
4. Kat defeats the main body and avatar through hax.

Let's get into the details.

Too Slow Destruction​

As Dalesean established the Destructive Force Main Body is a black hole. That black hole destroys the world. However, we know from what we see that it does so extremely slowly.

In most locations (e.g. Jirga Para Lhao) we see no effects of the destruction at all during the game. So it's clearly not progressing fast there, if any significant effect has reached it at all.

The only location of which we know how it is destroyed is the World Pillar, i.e. the big main realm of the cosmology. We know that is getting destroyed by the black hole gradually pulling it in. It specifically happens so slowly that nobody even notices. Just a little every day.
We can put a number on how slowly as well. We see the black hole when we get down to Boutoume. We can tell how far below Hekseville Boutoume is, because we climb down there in gameplay. It's a few kilometers.

After that scene, at least three years pass until the end of Gravity Rush 2. Yet, during that whole time, the black hole doesn't even reach Hekseville.

So yes, the Destructive Force Main Body is destroying the whole world. Without intervention, it will eventually succeed in doing that. But eventually is countless years away. The rate of destruction is a few kilometers per year at most, with no evidence suggesting anything faster.

Destroying the world that slowly can't be the grounds for a Low 2-C rating.

Strange Cosmology​

Gravity Rush doesn't feature planets. Instead, everyone lives either on the World Pillar or on floating islands. Of course, looking in the sky allows one to see a sun or even stars. The question is, though: If planets aren't a thing, are those actually giant celestial bodies that are cosmic distances away or are they light sources of a different nature?

Avatar Doesn't Scale​

To explain the relevance of this I will first need to briefly summarize how the fight against the Destructive Force goes. Here is a full video of the fight, for those who wish to check what I say in person.

Kat starts to fight it in Base form and tanks a hit in a cutscene in that form. She does some damage to the Avatar's cores, but it doesn't die. She then does some more fighting. The Avatar fires an energy beam to do some minor environmental damage. Kat destroys a central core using the Panther Mode. Turns out, it doesn't die from that either. From that point on Kat can deal no more damage and gets defeated. But the power of the people gives her new power and she combines her power with those of Raven to enter Gryps mode. After that, she erases the Avatar from existence.
Shortly after she leaves to seal the Destructive Force in a black hole.

What's the problem here? Well, for one, if this Avatar were Low 2-C it would mean Kat's base form would have Low 2-C durability for tanking that claw strike at the beginning.

Luckily, there is no reason to believe that. The Destructive Force has no known Universal Energy System. Hence, there is no reason to believe that the Avatar would share the stats that result from the Main Body's black hole's gravitational pull or from... whatever it does to the pocket dimensions.
It fights using claws and energy beams, which are completely separate things. So with nothing like Mana being around that could fuel both, those are just unrelated things and don't scale.

The only win is via Hax​

As already said, Kat's base and Panther forms deal no relevant damage to the Avatar of the Destructive Force. They both can crush its cores, but do nothing to it beyond that.
Kat defeats it once she enters Gryps Mode. However, the only attack she does in that mode is one that sends a lot of astral panthers and ravens at the Avatar, which then disappear into its body and erase it from existence. As that's pure hax, it doesn't scale to Kat's stats at all.

As for the defeat of the main body: Kat doesn't fight it. She just goes down and in a suicide move imprisons it in a black hole. The epilogue suggests that she might actually manage to escape a year later, but it's still a long time.
This is

1. a victory purely due to black hole-based sealing hax.
2. a special technique that clearly is far beyond her usual powers, given that it at minimum takes her out for a year.

In any case, it can't be used as evidence of her scaling to the Destructive Force.

Contradictions​

In this section, I will explain two big contradictions of the proposed ratings.

Gade can be harmed by Raven​

Here Raven hurts Gade in her Base form. Notice that the proposal for the base form is 7-C. (infinite stats for it would result in lots of contradictions)
This means for one that Gade's proposed Low 2-C reality warping stats can't apply to him physically, but also strongly supports that he can't use them against someone as involved in the fate of the world as Raven. Otherwise, why would he allow her to hurt him so much that he cries out in pain and collapses on the road?

Dalesean doesn't really bring up a counterpoint to this, other than that it conflicts with Raven's other showings. I have addressed those above already.
One I will respond to directly is the statement that Lumino and Tenebria can't be defeated by Base Raven, after she absorbs Gade and Cyanae's powers: As already established the Creators have done things to aid Kat and Raven. Those things cost them, draining their power and eventually erasing them completely, but they can do small things to interfere with fate. So it's not further surprising that Lumino and Tenebria with Creator powers would be stronger than their base forms. But that's all we're told. That they are stronger. Not that they are infinitely stronger.
It doesn't need an infinite power boost for a strong opponent to become so strong that you can't defeat them without gaining upgrades yourself.
So this doesn't contradict the point.

Base and Panther/Phoenix Mode harm the same opponents without oneshotting​

In the Kali Angel bossfight you can harm her both in Base form and she can survive attacks from you in Panther Mode. Raven also participates in Phoenix Mode. Given that it's proposed that Panther and Phoenix Mode are infinitely stronger than the base form, that seems like a contradiction.
Cecie also blocks an attack from them in Panther and Phoenix Made, which is weird for someone that by current rankings is 7-C.

Now, Dalesean brings up the followings point against that:

I mean all this is literally just gameplay at work, you unlock the transformation as a gameplay mechanic that just functions as a change of moveset and damage boost for gameplay so using boss health bars and in game damage to justify that in an argument doesn't work unless we also think regular fodder enemies scale to Gravity Panther Kat because they can withstand a blow from her in the transformation during gameplay?

This specific Kali is one shot by the Gravity Panther in the cutscene which should obvious be more relevant. Just unlocking the transformation for use in the game as a whole isn't an anti-feat, the only anti-feat for Gravity Panther or Phoenix mode would have to come from cutscene's but the problem in literally every cutscene they appear in they completely one shot every single opponent who is directly hit by them be it The Other, Kali, Elektricitie here and here, Lumino and Tenebria using a combined beam attack. I mean the transformation does have set damage numbers in the game after all and of course every enemy and boss has a set amount of health so it isn't just going to one shot in gameplay like it would it its cutscenes.

Now, first, regular enemies being able to withstand the mode is actually no issue for my point. Because the point I make is that it is not infinitely stronger than her base mode. The super mode is stronger her regular mode, just not strong enough to oneshot everything her base form can harm.


Next, we have the suggestion that this is just game mechanics at play. There are lots of things speaking against that.
First, do the developers actually control very precisely when you can use the ability in which capacity. First, Kat can not actually use it at all times, but only when certain conditions are unlocked. And, according to IGN, can only be activated during certain battles, which aligns with all I have seen. Basically, you can only activate it against strong opponents.
At the same time, if the game wants you to be in Panther Mode due to plot, it will just force you to activate it and keep you in it.
So there are fights where you can't use it, fights where you have to use it and fights where usage is optional. That all these exist, IMO suggests an intention that the opponents fought with optional Panther Mode can be harmed in either state.

Next, the Kali Angel fight ends with a cutscene. In that cutscene, Kat and Raven start already transformed into Panther and Phoenix Mode. This indicates that, if they canonically were supposed to fight Kali Angel in one of the two states, that state was the Panther & Phoenix Mode. Yet, in the same cutscene, we see missiles from the military harm Kali. So Yunica would scale to the Panther mode and... well, from there Base Kat as well.
I will note that during the cutscene they "one shot" Kali, as Dalesean puts it, only because the missiles reveal her core which Kat and Raven then attack together. It doesn't support that the modes would oneshot her during a regular fight.

Raven is also stated to be able to damage Lumino and Tenebria with absorbed powers in Base Mode, just not enough to defeat them. It will make them lose some of their power, though, which then goes towards Raven('s memory). So is she damaging infinitely stronger beings? In gameplay she also can tank attacks from them.

Is that contradiction still not clear enough? Then let's look at the Elektricide fight. As already shown, that fights forces you to fight Elektricide in Panther Mode in the beginning. Raven also attacks her in Phoenix mode before that which Elektricide actually survives, contrary to Dalesean's explanation.
Then it specifically makes you run out of that power during a cutscene. In the fight that follows you are supposed to fight her in the base mode. Specifically, you are made to throw missiles at her. Regular weaponry.
Mid-fight a cutscene plays which shows Kat in base form.
For the finisher Kat transform back into Panther mode then.
So the cutscenes show very specifically how the fight goes. It starts with Elektricide being hit by Panther Mode Kat, then continues by her fighting Elektricide in base using missiles and stuff, then finishes in Panther Mode. Even disregarding all gameplay completely, the game shows that both forms are involved in this fight. If they were infinitely far apart in power, this would be impossible. Either Panther Mode would oneshot, or Base Mode would do no damage and get oneshot.

In conclusion, do we know from what the game tells us that Base and Panther mode can only have a finite difference in power. Panther Mode can be stronger, but not millions of times stronger or more.

Tags​

@DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest @SamanPatou @Everything12 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Armorchompy @Agnaa @Deagonx

Tagging you guys here as well, so that you see my and Dalesean's summary.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, here is my summary on the Low 2-C matter.

I will separate it into two sections, as we have two scaling chains towards Low 2-C:

• Destruction Force Main Body -> Destructive Force Avatar -> Kat (Panther & Gryps Mode)
• Creators (Ancient) -> Creators (Modern Day) -> Lumino & Tenebria -> Raven (Phoenix Mode)

I will call the first the Kat chain and the latter the Raven chain, by the protagonist they apply to. Of course, the protagonists scale to each, so in practice which one is used doesn't matter. As I will show both are faulty, though. I will also make a third section on ways the current scaling contradicts other showings in the verse, especially the scaling logic.

Raven Chain​

As Dalesean established, the basic idea of the Raven scaling chain is that the ancient Creators were Low 2-C due to creating the universe. Assuming the modern ones are as well, the part of their powers Lumino and Tenebria stole should also be Low 2-C. Then Raven, who defeated them, should likewise be Low 2-C.
This has two major problems.

1. The modern Creators are weaker and likely not Low 2-C.
2. The Creators have a limit where their power can't be used to interfere with the fate of the world. As a protagonist, Raven is massively relevant to that fate, meaning that her being defeated by Lumino & Tenebria using the Creator powers would be exactly what doesn't work due to said limitation.

Let's get into the details.

The Creators aren't Low 2-C anymore​

Dalesean did a lot of work for me here in his summary, but I will briefly establish the facts again anyways.

The Creators created the world, but they can't interfere with fate at a large scale anymore. It's against their laws and doing that would get them erased. It's on creation to create it's own fate. As Kat asks early on: If Gade is a Creator of the world, why doesn't he just defeat the boss of the Rift Planes himself instead of sending Kat? Well, simple, because he can't do that.

Now, once the Creators have lost power from interfering with fate, it doesn't seem like they get it back. After the Raven's Choice DLC they say that they need to save up what little they have left.

And have they already lost some power? Contrary to what Dalesean says, we can be pretty sure they have.

The clearest case is Gade. Why? Well, the thing that actually tips him over and erases him is him opening a portal for Kat. So opening a portal for Kat = interference with fate that costs the last remaining power he uses to sustain his existence.
Thing is, in Gravity Rush 1, Gade does exactly that many times. Here for example he opens a portal into a pocket dimension for her so that she can save part of the city.
The same thing happens two times afterwards.

One case of Cyanea is also pretty clear cut. She says clearly that interference with fate is happening when she saves Kat by blowing up that device.

Personally, I would also count the time she creates a dream to make Kat find one of her powers. It's not clearly stated at that time, but given that Kat could only save the children through that ability, I would argue that it clearly changed fate to some extent. Certainly changed the fate of those children immensely.

That the Creators can't hold together the world of Light and Darkness indicates that they have grown weaker as well. Sure, the world is collapsing because the element of light and darkness are gone, but... as the Creators of the world they should have created those to begin with, so is that really a problem if they are at full power? Also, they can use their powers to keep it existing for a short time, so it's not that their powers are inherently incompatible with the task either.

Debunking Counter arguments​

Dalesean brings up a couple of feats, which he believes are universe level and hence proof that the Creators are still universe level at the time Lumino and Tenebrea steal their powers. I will address them in this section.

First, there is the feat of Cyanea creation a world made from Kat's subconsciousness. Kat compares it to hypnosis. Like, it's obviously a mental world existing in Kat's head. That's mind control, not universe level reality warping.

Next, there is Gade's feat of "holding the world together". Dalesean basically explains the issue with this already.

Gade is erased towards the end and nothing happens to the world. Whether it is due to the dreams of humankind or not, fact is that he is not required for the universe's existence.
So the "hold the world together" is said in context of that specific situation. As Dalesean already explained, the Ark incident caused a bug in reality that stopped time and threatened to damage the world. In this context, what Gade means is likely that he uses his power to stop or slow further damage from that incident to the world before it is repaired. He isn't doing that alone. The world is trying to repair itself on its own. Gade only really needs to put up enough power here to to balance the scale between the "bug" in reality and the universe's own regeneration. He isn't stabilizing the universe nor is he containing a universe level explosion by his own power or anything.
In short, this isn't a Low 2-C feat.
It also happens shortly before the fight with Lumino and Tenebria, so arguably all power he used on this they actually lack after absorbing his power.

Creator Powers are extremely weakened against Raven​

Dalesean again did a lot of set-up for me here. So again, I will just give a brief summary.

The Creator's can't use their powers to change someone's fate. As mentioned above, this includes things like defeating the bosses to save parts of the city.
And Raven? Well, Raven is extremely relevant to the fate of the world. Heck, she is a part of the protagonist that was split off by fate itself.
Obviously defeating her would result in the bug in reality not being fixed and, later on, the Destructive Force not being defeated. No larger change in fate is imaginable. So it's painfully obvious that the restriction of changing fate would prevent Creator powers to be used to their full power against Raven. We know powers can be used to a low potency to change fate (Gade making portals, Cyanea destroying the device), but they can't wield it to just defeat Raven. Something which Dalesean seems to agree with, going into greater detail:

I genuinely have no idea why he writes that as a counter-argument to me, if that is exactly what I am saying.

I suppose the difference is that Dalesean doesn't extend this property to the powers after Lumino and Tenebria stole them. But, well, in their fight they did no impressive feat.
We are told that Raven can not defeat them without Phoenix Mode, but that alone doesn't mean an infinite difference in power. It only means that they became powerful enough for Raven to need additional power to win.
And, well, as shown above the Creators can use their powers to interfere with fate in a minor way. So against Raven that would result in a minor power-up. Things like how they seemingly boosted their regeneration to make it so that Raven can't defeat them without the power-up.
But it stands to reason that Lumino and Tenebria can't use the Creator's powers to break the laws of the world, that prevent interference with fate, in more severe ways than the Creators themselves. Otherwise gifting someone their powers would let the Creator's resolve everything immediately.

So, yeah... Lumino and Tenebria shouldn't be infinitely stronger than they were before in the fight with Raven. Both logic and depiction of the battle indicate this.

Kat Chain​

Kat's scaling chain has four main problems:

1. The Destructive Force Main Body's destruction of the world is too slow to qualify for a Low 2-C rating
2. Gravity Rush has a strange cosmology which puts into question how large the world is
3. The Destructive Force Main Body has no UES to justify the avatar scaling to it.
4. Kat defeats the main body and avatar through hax.

Let's get into the details.

Too Slow Destruction​

As Dalesean established the Destructive Force Main Body is a black hole. That black hole destroys the world. However, we know from what we see that it does so extremely slowly.

In most locations (e.g. Jirga Para Lhao) we see no effects of the destruction at all during the game. So it's clearly not progressing fast there, if any significant effect has reached it at all.

The only location of which we know how it is destroyed is the World Pillar, i.e. the big main realm of the cosmology. We know that is getting destroyed by the black hole gradually pulling it in. It specifically happens so slowly that nobody even notices. Just a little every day.
We can put a number on how slowly as well. We see the black hole when we get down to Boutoume. We can tell how far below Hekseville Boutoume is, because we climb down there in gameplay. It's a few kilometers.

After that scene, at least three years pass until the end of Gravity Rush 2. Yet, during that whole time, the black hole doesn't even reach Hekseville.

So yes, the Destructive Force Main Body is destroying the whole world. Without intervention, it will eventually succeed in doing that. But eventually is countless years away. The rate of destruction is a few kilometers per year at most, with no evidence suggesting anything faster.

Destroying the world that slowly can't be the grounds for a Low 2-C rating.

Strange Cosmology​

Gravity Rush doesn't feature planets. Instead, everyone lives either on the World Pillar or on floating islands. Of course, looking in the sky allows one to see a sun or even stars. The question is, though: If planets aren't a thing, are those actually giant celestial bodies that are cosmic distances away or are they light sources of a different nature?

Avatar Doesn't Scale​

To explain the relevance of this I will first need to briefly summarize how the fight against the Destructive Force goes. Here is a full video of the fight, for those who wish to check what I say in person.

Kat starts to fight it in Base form and tanks a hit in a cutscene in that form. She does some damage to the Avatar's cores, but it doesn't die. She then does some more fighting. The Avatar fires an energy beam to do some minor environmental damage. Kat destroys a central core using the Panther Mode. Turns out, it doesn't die from that either. From that point on Kat can deal no more damage and gets defeated. But the power of the people gives her new power and she combines her power with those of Raven to enter Gryps mode. After that, she erases the Avatar from existence.
Shortly after she leaves to seal the Destructive Force in a black hole.

What's the problem here? Well, for one, if this Avatar were Low 2-C it would mean Kat's base form would have Low 2-C durability for tanking that claw strike at the beginning.

Luckily, there is no reason to believe that. The Destructive Force has no known Universal Energy System. Hence, there is no reason to believe that the Avatar would share the stats that result from the Main Body's black hole's gravitational pull or from... whatever it does to the pocket dimensions.
It fights using claws and energy beams, which are completely separate things. So with nothing like Mana being around that could fuel both, those are just unrelated things and don't scale.

The only win is via Hax​

As already said, Kat's base and Panther forms deal no relevant damage to the Avatar of the Destructive Force. They both can crush its cores, but do nothing to it beyond that.
Kat defeats it once she enters Gryps Mode. However, the only attack she does in that mode is one that sends a lot of astral panthers and ravens at the Avatar, which then disappear into its body and erase it from existence. As that's pure hax, it doesn't scale to Kat's stats at all.

As for the defeat of the main body: Kat doesn't fight it. She just goes down and in a suicide move imprisons it in a black hole. The epilogue suggests that she might actually manage to escape a year later, but it's still a long time.
This is

1. a victory purely due to black hole-based sealing hax.
2. a special technique that clearly is far beyond her usual powers, given that it at minimum takes her out for a year.

In any case, it can't be used as evidence of her scaling to the Destructive Force.

Contradictions​

In this section, I will explain two big contradictions of the proposed ratings.

Gade can be harmed by Raven​

Here Raven hurts Gade in her Base form. Notice that the proposal for the base form is 7-C. (infinite stats for it would result in lots of contradictions)
This means for one that Gade's proposed Low 2-C reality warping stats can't apply to him physically, but also strongly supports that he can't use them against someone as involved in the fate of the world as Raven. Otherwise, why would he allow her to hurt him so much that he cries out in pain and collapses on the road?

Dalesean doesn't really bring up a counterpoint to this, other than that it conflicts with Raven's other showings. I have addressed those above already.
One I will respond to directly is the statement that Lumino and Tenebria can't be defeated by Base Raven, after she absorbs Gade and Cyanae's powers: As already established the Creators have done things to aid Kat and Raven. Those things cost them, draining their power and eventually erasing them completely, but they can do small things to interfere with fate. So it's not further surprising that Lumino and Tenebria with Creator powers would be stronger than their base forms. But that's all we're told. That they are stronger. Not that they are infinitely stronger.
It doesn't need an infinite power boost for a strong opponent to become so strong that you can't defeat them without gaining upgrades yourself.
So this doesn't contradict the point.

Base and Panther/Phoenix Mode harm the same opponents without oneshotting​

In the Kali Angel bossfight you can harm her both in Base form and she can survive attacks from you in Panther Mode. Raven also participates in Phoenix Mode. Given that it's proposed that Panther and Phoenix Mode are infinitely stronger than the base form, that seems like a contradiction.
Cecie also blocks an attack from them in Panther and Phoenix Made, which is weird for someone that by current rankings is 7-C.

Now, Dalesean brings up the followings point against that:

Now, first, regular enemies being able to withstand the mode is actually no issue for my point. Because the point I make is that it is not infinitely stronger than her base mode. The super mode is stronger her regular mode, just not strong enough to oneshot everything her base form can harm.


Next, we have the suggestion that this is just game mechanics at play. There are lots of things speaking against that.
First, do the developers actually control very precisely when you can use the ability in which capacity. First, Kat can not actually use it at all times, but only when certain conditions are unlocked. And, according to IGN, can only be activated during certain battles, which aligns with all I have seen. Basically, you can only activate it against strong opponents.
At the same time, if the game wants you to be in Panther Mode due to plot, it will just force you to activate it and keep you in it.
So there are fights where you can't use it, fights where you have to use it and fights where usage is optional. That all these exist, IMO suggests an intention that the opponents fought with optional Panther Mode can be harmed in either state.

Next, the Kali Angel fight ends with a cutscene. In that cutscene, Kat and Raven start already transformed into Panther and Phoenix Mode. This indicates that, if they canonically were supposed to fight Kali Angel in one of the two states, that state was the Panther & Phoenix Mode. Yet, in the same cutscene, we see missiles from the military harm Kali. So Yunica would scale to the Panther mode and... well, from there Base Kat as well.
I will note that during the cutscene they "one shot" Kali, as Dalesean puts it, only because the missiles reveal her core which Kat and Raven then attack together. It doesn't support that the modes would oneshot her during a regular fight.

Raven is also stated to be able to damage Lumino and Tenebria with absorbed powers in Base Mode, just not enough to defeat them. It will make them lose some of their power, though, which then goes towards Raven('s memory). So is she damaging infinitely stronger beings? In gameplay she also can tank attacks from them.

Is that contradiction still not clear enough? Then let's look at the Elektricide fight. As already shown, that fights forces you to fight Elektricide in Panther Mode in the beginning. Raven also attacks her in Phoenix mode before that which Elektricide actually survives, contrary to Dalesean's explanation.
Then it specifically makes you run out of that power during a cutscene. In the fight that follows you are supposed to fight her in the base mode. Specifically, you are made to throw missiles at her. Regular weaponry.
Mid-fight a cutscene plays which shows Kat in base form.
For the finisher Kat transform back into Panther mode then.
So the cutscenes show very specifically how the fight goes. It starts with Elektricide being hit by Panther Mode Kat, then continues by her fighting Elektricide in base using missiles and stuff, then finishes in Panther Mode. Even disregarding all gameplay completely, the game shows that both forms are involved in this fight. If they were infinitely far apart in power, this would be impossible. Either Panther Mode would oneshot, or Base Mode would do no damage and get oneshot.

In conclusion, do we know from what the game tells us that Base and Panther mode can only have a finite difference in power. Panther Mode can be stronger, but not millions of times stronger or more.

Tags​

@DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest @SamanPatou @Everything12 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Armorchompy @Agnaa @Deagonx

Tagging you guys here as well, so that you see my and Dalesean's summary.

Looks good to me.

 

[Dalesean027]

Looks good to me.

no offense but can you even read my final summary

Gravity Rush Downgrades

So yeah, I'm not happy with Gravity Rush stats. Neu Hiraleon Scaling The 7-C rating is based on this calc. And it's fine and all, problem is it doesn't scale to Kat. I want you to look at the boss fight: (I recommend to watch at 2x speed to save time) For one, notice how the giant monster...

vsbattles.com

 

[CloverDragon03]

Dalesean's points make more sense to me than the counterarguments from DontTalk

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I will respond first thing in the morning for me

 

[Chariot190]

Not even a GR goon i played 1 at a keeosk for a lil and like, watched someone play it so... and while can't speak for everything there, some of that shit def doesn't hold or is handwaving context just from what ive seen this past week, or just, ignoring entire facets of how some feats work, by like, wiki standards.
Neutral atm but kind of really hate arguments where half the reasons is "could/should" and not "is".
also if Gade is so weak that even Raven can one shot his ass, why is them taking his power make them completely invulnerable to her level of power? it'd make no difference.
That isnt basis for a infinite jump obviously, but that is evidence against other points made, and if theyre faulty that in turn affects even more points that hinge on said things being true to have merit, as just one example. The argument is filled with arguments that hinge on maybes and non-confirmed facts from other points to hold weight.

 

[Dalesean027]

Sorry but I can't just sit here when you make a post like that and twist so much of what I say ignoring all context to suit your arguments, This will actually be my final post then I'm done as keeping up here is way too exhausting. I can promise you this will be my final post in opposition cause I'm genuinely done after this and sure I covered basically all of this in my previous post but if I'm gonna have people not even clicking back one page to read it there then I might as well rehash everything right here.

The Creators aren't Low 2-C anymore​

Dalesean did a lot of work for me here in his summary, but I will briefly establish the facts again anyways.

The Creators created the world, but they can't interfere with fate at a large scale anymore. It's against their laws and doing that would get them erased. It's on creation to create it's own fate. As Kat asks early on: If Gade is a Creator of the world, why doesn't he just defeat the boss of the Rift Planes himself instead of sending Kat? Well, simple, because he can't do that.

Now, once the Creators have lost power from interfering with fate, it doesn't seem like they get it back. After the Raven's Choice DLC they say that they need to save up what little they have left.

This comes out to be blatantly false as its never stated they can't "interfere with fate at a large scale anymore." He's twisting my words used here as they never had the power to interfere with fate to any capacity. It is literally against the laws of the world that they created for them to for them to interfere in its fate specifically or else they will be erased. The creation of the world itself has literally 0 to do with any interference because there is no world made yet to interfere in. As I stated the creators have made it well known that after the creation of a world they're unable to alter the course of events in said world due it's laws threatening their existence if they do in fact do so, The scan he uses here to says its on the creation to create its own fate while true is still being take a bit out of stride as what Gade is really implying is that creating a world requires less power than what it takes to interfere with fate said world. They are stating that energy required to create worlds < energy needed to change the fate itself. Also the specific scene he mentions for the Raven's choice DLC is being taken out of context as this isn't powers lost due to interference with fate but rather power lost from having their power's stolen by Lumino and Tenebria which after their defeat was then used to repair the world.

Also provide an actual scan that says Gade isn't strong enough to fight himself, You can't because that doesn't exist at all. Fighting anyone would be interference in the world so of course they don't fight and for all we know the moment they actually throw down with someone that could instantly erase them since I'd say that's more drastic than just doing minor things here and there.

The clearest case is Gade. Why? Well, the thing that actually tips him over and erases him is him opening a portal for Kat. So opening a portal for Kat = interference with fate that costs the last remaining power he uses to sustain his existence.
Thing is, in Gravity Rush 1, Gade does exactly that many times. Here for example he opens a portal into a pocket dimension for her so that she can save part of the city.
The same thing happens two times afterwards.

One case of Cyanea is also pretty clear cut. She says clearly that interference with fate is happening when she saves Kat by blowing up that device.

Personally, I would also count the time she creates a dream to make Kat find one of her powers. It's not clearly stated at that time, but given that Kat could only save the children through that ability, I would argue that it clearly changed fate to some extent. Certainly changed the fate of those children immensely.

This too is something I already covered in great detail as well but you're trying to pass off everything they do as actual interference in the world when that's not the case so I'll quote myself again.

Kat obtained that power of her own means, Cyanae may have guided her but she did not directly give her said ability. Cyanae is specifically allowing Kat to piece together everything herself in the world she made is what awakened her minds eye, she tells Kat's she'll be the one who finds a way to save the children, all Kat has to do is face her own forgotten memories to do so and even then she's just awakening a power already inside of herself. This is no act of interference by any means and even Cyanae doesn't dictate it as such but if you find a official statement that is then by all means go for it but as far as things go it is not. Also your point here doesn't work yeah we have no real measurement for how much they are drained but they are never stated to be drained at all or have had any major decreases in their power until AFTER Lumnio and Tenebria absorbed their powers and combated Raven. Again all Cyanae does is two minor acts at the end of the game, Gade is on the same boat him opening portals for Kat in GR1 was not interference in the world as he was Kat's guide, he wouldn't tell her he can't do anything but can also take her to where she needs to be as well. The only time Gade has a real act of interference is once again like Cyanae at the end of the game when he summons the ark from allowing her to tear a whole in space time, in no other scenario is he directly interfering in Kat's fate he is quite literally her guide through it all in the first game, it is specifically stated even that they're fate are intertwined so him helping her in the first game for 90% of it was him following alongside the fate of the world. They didn't call him the man of her destiny in game one for no reason.

This is to say once again they only time they mention being significantly weaker is after they have their powers absorbed by Lumino and Tenebira and used to repair the world.

Anywho continuing on from here

That the Creators can't hold together the world of Light and Darkness indicates that they have grown weaker as well. Sure, the world is collapsing because the element of light and darkness are gone, but... as the Creators of the world they should have created those to begin with, so is that really a problem if they are at full power? Also, they can use their powers to keep it existing for a short time, so it's not that their powers are inherently incompatible with the task either.

This isn't even an argument you're basically just saying "the one thing that holds this world together is missing and they can't hold it together without it so this proves they are weakened." Where is the logic there at all in the first place this it wasn't due to a lack of power but rather because like they say its existence hinges on the manifestations of light and dark being there, if they aren't then the dimension doesn't exist so the fact if anything that they can still hold back another worlds collapse for a solid minute and a half if anything is evidence that they still DO possess their power. They don't possess the manifestations of those elements that's needed to stabilize that world anyways they literally say that's how that world functions so how is that an anti-feat if they did have them they did then things would have used them to stabilize it.

Debunking Counter arguments​

Dalesean brings up a couple of feats, which he believes are universe level and hence proof that the Creators are still universe level at the time Lumino and Tenebrea steal their powers. I will address them in this section.

First, there is the feat of Cyanea creation a world made from Kat's subconsciousness. Kat compares it to hypnosis. Like, it's obviously a mental world existing in Kat's head. That's mind control, not universe level reality warping.

Question for you here, why would Kat have more authority here than the god who literally says they just created a world? And yes while the world is assembled from "fragments" of Kat's subconscious it ultimately contains information that Kat would not normally have herself since the dimension not only is made from experiences Kat has had in the past and present but also made of those from the future that she would not have yet experienced.

As Dalesean already explained, the Ark incident caused a bug in reality that stopped time and threatened to damage the world. In this context, what Gade means is likely that he uses his power to stop or slow further damage from that incident to the world before it is repaired. He isn't doing that alone. The world is trying to repair itself on its own. Gade only really needs to put up enough power here to to balance the scale between the "bug" in reality and the universe's own regeneration. He isn't stabilizing the universe nor is he containing a universe level explosion by his own power or anything.
In short, this isn't a Low 2-C feat.
It also happens shortly before the fight with Lumino and Tenebria, so arguably all power he used on this they actually lack after absorbing his power.

Likely isn't an argument when they specifically say how the world is repairing itself, once again this is something that has been completely addressed that you are twisting from what was actual said. To once again quote myself from my own indexing of these events.

The world is found repairing itself with the power taken from Gade and Cyanae but to give a bit more clarification on this let's number the events here.
1 - The experiment with the arc had an explosive effect on the world allowing the the actual power source of the arc that being the elements of light and darkness themself to leave the arc and form into keepers which alongside other variables cause time across the entire world to freeze and need repairs. The damage has already been done by the bugs which is why Gade comments in the first place on those making it hard for him to maintain the world again he specifically.

2 - Lumino and Tenebria absorbed still nearly the entirety of their creator powers.

3 - When defeated their being as the elements of light and dark are returned to the arc as its power source on top of the creator powers they absorbed being what's used to repair the world, that's why they aren't just getting their powers given back to them as returning the power source of ark alone isn't going to repair the world because like they say its not just light and dark leaving the arc as its power source that messes everything up as there are other variables cause time across the entire world to freeze and need repairs. The arc would already be fine with just the elements that power it itself being returned but they still need to repair the world as well hence the added usage of their creator powers that were taken by Lumino and Tenebria.

The creators power is clearly stated to be used here for the world's repair and that is made abundantly clear.

Creator Powers are extremely weakened against Raven​

Dalesean again did a lot of set-up for me here. So again, I will just give a brief summary.

The Creator's can't use their powers to change someone's fate. As mentioned above, this includes things like defeating the bosses to save parts of the city.
And Raven? Well, Raven is extremely relevant to the fate of the world. Heck, she is a part of the protagonist that was split off by fate itself.
Obviously defeating her would result in the bug in reality not being fixed and, later on, the Destructive Force not being defeated. No larger change in fate is imaginable. So it's painfully obvious that the restriction of changing fate would prevent Creator powers to be used to their full power against Raven. We know powers can be used to a low potency to change fate (Gade making portals, Cyanea destroying the device), but they can't wield it to just defeat Raven. Something which Dalesean seems to agree with, going into greater detail:
I genuinely have no idea why he writes that as a counter-argument to me, if that is exactly what I am saying.

I suppose the difference is that Dalesean doesn't extend this property to the powers after Lumino and Tenebria stole them. But, well, in their fight they did no impressive feat.
We are told that Raven can not defeat them without Phoenix Mode, but that alone doesn't mean an infinite difference in power. It only means that they became powerful enough for Raven to need additional power to win.
And, well, as shown above the Creators can use their powers to interfere with fate in a minor way. So against Raven that would result in a minor power-up. Things like how they seemingly boosted their regeneration to make it so that Raven can't defeat them without the power-up.
But it stands to reason that Lumino and Tenebria can't use the Creator's powers to break the laws of the world, that prevent interference with fate, in more severe ways than the Creators themselves. Otherwise gifting someone their powers would let the Creator's resolve everything immediately.

So, yeah... Lumino and Tenebria shouldn't be infinitely stronger than they were before in the fight with Raven. Both logic and depiction of the battle indicate this.

Do you have proof that Lumino and Tenebria actually gained the limitations of the creators to even begin to make this claim? Please send a direct statement where it says that they are being weakened due to having received the same limitations of the creators. If not this point isn't even valid at its core.

Too Slow Destruction​

As Dalesean established the Destructive Force Main Body is a black hole. That black hole destroys the world. However, we know from what we see that it does so extremely slowly.

In most locations (e.g. Jirga Para Lhao) we see no effects of the destruction at all during the game. So it's clearly not progressing fast there, if any significant effect has reached it at all.

The only location of which we know how it is destroyed is the World Pillar, i.e. the big main realm of the cosmology. We know that is getting destroyed by the black hole gradually pulling it in. It specifically happens so slowly that nobody even notices. Just a little every day.
We can put a number on how slowly as well. We see the black hole when we get down to Boutoume. We can tell how far below Hekseville Boutoume is, because we climb down there in gameplay. It's a few kilometers.

After that scene, at least three years pass until the end of Gravity Rush 2. Yet, during that whole time, the black hole doesn't even reach Hekseville.

So yes, the Destructive Force Main Body is destroying the whole world. Without intervention, it will eventually succeed in doing that. But eventually is countless years away. The rate of destruction is a few kilometers per year at most, with no evidence suggesting anything faster.

Destroying the world that slowly can't be the grounds for a Low 2-C rating.

we specifically know the black hole is the reason why time flows normally or rather differently the further away you are from it with the area closest to the black hole at the bottom of the world tree appearing frozen and unmoving with time passing slower at the bottom. So its time dilation makes it more apparent of being a real singularity. Its once again stated here to by another relevant source that the sheer gravity produced by this black hole is what's distorting time across the universe. Of course the destruction is seemingly taking a millennia when the entire reason the time has dilated to begin with is due to the effects of the black holes gravity. And once again to cover the actual statements and range of the black hole here that you're conveniently ignoring.

• The complete guide for Gravity Rush 2 has this to say about the Black Hole at the bottom of the world (Translations come from here)
  • The "World Pillar" and the giant black hole
    
    Extending out of the base of the World Pillar is a giant black hole.
    It gradually consumes the pillar, with the city of Boutoume at the lowest level having already vanished. It is affecting Jirga Para Lhao and other entities across dimensions, and it's believed that it will eventually be consumed like the World Pillar.
    It's also believed that the closer one gets to the black hole, the slower time flows causing a time discrepancy. For example, a year in the middle level of Hekseville will be a hundred years in the upper level of Eto.
• So while yes the black hole is engulfing the world pillar, its directly stating its affecting everything beyond dimensions this is including other worlds this is noted be affecting Jigra Para Lhao specifically as an example for when its in another dimension. So this destruction isn't limited to the world pillar every dimension we see in the game is affected by this destruction. So when they say the Black Hole "threatens the fabric of the universe." I'd say its far from vague in this case considering this is supported by the guides alongside us having numerous statements supporting this stating that the Destructive Force will return the world to nothing by not only itself but the Creator Bit as well who considered this to be unpreventable. An alternate translation for the one above even says the Black Hole "transcends dimensions." This becomes super relevant considering now the structure of the world and other dimensions we established prior.

Think this speaks for itself.

Strange Cosmology​

Gravity Rush doesn't feature planets. Instead, everyone lives either on the World Pillar or on floating islands. Of course, looking in the sky allows one to see a sun or even stars. The question is, though: If planets aren't a thing, are those actually giant celestial bodies that are cosmic distances away or are they light sources of a different nature?

Do you actually have proof of any of this? Are there actually any statement that support what you're saying here? The setting takes place across a few dimension but just because they don't explore space somehow you're considering that an anti-feat to the clearly defined star/suns being real. This doesn't work either.

The only win is via Hax​

As already said, Kat's base and Panther forms deal no relevant damage to the Avatar of the Destructive Force. They both can crush its cores, but do nothing to it beyond that.
Kat defeats it once she enters Gryps Mode. However, the only attack she does in that mode is one that sends a lot of astral panthers and ravens at the Avatar, which then disappear into its body and erase it from existence. As that's pure hax, it doesn't scale to Kat's stats at all.

As for the defeat of the main body: Kat doesn't fight it. She just goes down and in a suicide move imprisons it in a black hole. The epilogue suggests that she might actually manage to escape a year later, but it's still a long time.
This is

1. a victory purely due to black hole-based sealing hax.
2. a special technique that clearly is far beyond her usual powers, given that it at minimum takes her out for a year.

In any case, it can't be used as evidence of her scaling to the Destructive Force.

Gryps would just upscale Panther and Phoenix mode regardless of where they are scaled so that doesn't really work and its actually explicitly stated that Kat had acquired "Ultimate" and "Extreme" Gravity Power enough to become singularity to seal the destructive force, otherwise while she does return after a year we can't really expressly speak on anything else regarding this because the details don't exist.

Gade can be harmed by Raven​

Here Raven hurts Gade in her Base form. Notice that the proposal for the base form is 7-C. (infinite stats for it would result in lots of contradictions)
This means for one that Gade's proposed Low 2-C reality warping stats can't apply to him physically, but also strongly supports that he can't use them against someone as involved in the fate of the world as Raven. Otherwise, why would he allow her to hurt him so much that he cries out in pain and collapses on the road?

Dalesean doesn't really bring up a counterpoint to this, other than that it conflicts with Raven's other showings. I have addressed those above already.
One I will respond to directly is the statement that Lumino and Tenebria can't be defeated by Base Raven, after she absorbs Gade and Cyanae's powers: As already established the Creators have done things to aid Kat and Raven. Those things cost them, draining their power and eventually erasing them completely, but they can do small things to interfere with fate. So it's not further surprising that Lumino and Tenebria with Creator powers would be stronger than their base forms. But that's all we're told. That they are stronger. Not that they are infinitely stronger.
It doesn't need an infinite power boost for a strong opponent to become so strong that you can't defeat them without gaining upgrades yourself.
So this doesn't contradict the point.

This is being used to say that Gade clearly isn't 2-C let alone 7-C or at least that his abilities don't apply to his physicals however there is a fatal problem with this and its that one of course from what we mentioned before Gade can't fight back for one anyways due to that being something that will go against the fate of the world causing him to be erased but worse than that is once Lumino and Tenebria absorb Gade and Cyanae's powers its outright stated by the Creator Bit Raven doesn't near possess the power to actually do anything against them and she isn't able to actually defeat them without first unlocking her Gravity Phoenix transformation. This makes the Gravity Day's scan pretty damning considering prior to absorbing the creator's powers Raven could defeat both Lumino and Tenebria thus if the creators were really so far below Raven Lumino and Tenebria wouldn't be considered completely undefeatable with their powers to the point where Raven has to flee to gather her memories to awaken her power to defeat them.

Base and Panther/Phoenix Mode harm the same opponents without oneshotting​

In the Kali Angel bossfight you can harm her both in Base form and she can survive attacks from you in Panther Mode. Raven also participates in Phoenix Mode. Given that it's proposed that Panther and Phoenix Mode are infinitely stronger than the base form, that seems like a contradiction.
Cecie also blocks an attack from them in Panther and Phoenix Made, which is weird for someone that by current rankings is 7-C.

Now, Dalesean brings up the followings point against that:

Now, first, regular enemies being able to withstand the mode is actually no issue for my point. Because the point I make is that it is not infinitely stronger than her base mode. The super mode is stronger her regular mode, just not strong enough to oneshot everything her base form can harm.

Next, we have the suggestion that this is just game mechanics at play. There are lots of things speaking against that.
First, do the developers actually control very precisely when you can use the ability in which capacity. First, Kat can not actually use it at all times, but only when certain conditions are unlocked. And, according to IGN, can only be activated during certain battles, which aligns with all I have seen. Basically, you can only activate it against strong opponents.

Once again we don't use in game damage and enemy health bars to determine scaling, that's just not how that works Also IGN is entirely wrong in their assessment and I'm not even sure why you're taking them as a end all be all here. Panther Mode is usable anywhere once its unlocked in the game, you don't have to be going up against strong opponents or anything of the sort as its essentially just a come back mechanic outside of its few canonical uses which. Heck one of its activation conditions is just having low health, heck that's how the guy activates it in the video you sent for the Kali boss fight. So regardless of the damage the form does as just a general boost in gameplay in the cutscene it entirely one shot Kali. Also man as far as the wiki goes we do not consider what Cecie did as "blocking" the attack, she tries yes but its instantly shattered and she's sent flying, hardly what I'd call blocking.

Once again regular enemies withstanding the form in gameplay doesn't matter because again using in game damage scaling to determine stats isn't even viable and not something we do so I'm just gonna move on.

At the same time, if the game wants you to be in Panther Mode due to plot, it will just force you to activate it and keep you in it.
So there are fights where you can't use it, fights where you have to use it and fights where usage is optional. That all these exist, IMO suggests an intention that the opponents fought with optional Panther Mode can be harmed in either state.

And yeah the Elektricitie fight does have you canonically use Panther Mode and in the cutscenes here and here we see both Kat and Raven one shotting her with Elektricitie regenerating from it being besides the point as her coming back from being particles is just a regen feat, there's also the fact that her true self seemingly wasn't what was actual being destroyed before either with Cyanae giving Kat the means to discern the real Elektricitie to deal a lethal blow with her still one shotting her after transforming into gravity panther and attacking her real body. If I splatter you into paste with an attack and you regenerate from it that certainly doesn't mean you scale to said attack. Otherwise we're using the same argument of in game damage scaling versus what we actually see in cutscenes.

Specifically, you are made to throw missiles at her. Regular weaponry.

Also this part is funny cause its specifically mentioned they only need the missiles to take advantage of her weakness to fire which allows them to make her drop her barriers. Otherwise it's not like she's scaling to tier 2 for this to even matter considering she's one shot several times by their transformations.

Raven is also stated to be able to damage Lumino and Tenebria with absorbed powers in Base Mode, just not enough to defeat them. It will make them lose some of their power, though, which then goes towards Raven('s memory). So is she damaging infinitely stronger beings? In gameplay she also can tank attacks from them.

The very clip you send specifically explains why you would want to try fighting them all which just comes down to a gameplay mechanic once again. "If you are having trouble locating a memory, defeat them to gain a hint to its location." Pretty clear why that's here at at all but going to the lore side again Creator Bit tells Raven that she doesn't near possess the power to actually do anything against them. She specifically needs to gather her memories to awaken her Phoenix Mode to defeat them. Considering the game has them chasing you around the map until you actually find the hidden memories it's pretty safe for them to add a way for you to use them to your advantage to find them so you aren't exactly having unkillable boss enemies chasing you down forever cause you can't find what you need to progress.

We don't scale every enemy to Kratos using Spartan rage or Dante using Devil trigger because they technically CAN use it against them in gameplay with even lesser enemies surviving hits. No that's just gameplay ofc it isn't going to as crazy as lore should dictate. Its the reason why you aren't just waling around one shotting every enemy even the fodder in such games.
That's all I've got to say I'm officially done commenting after this, I'll just leave it to others to decide

 

[Chariot190]

First, there is the feat of Cyanea creation a world made from Kat's subconsciousness. Kat compares it to hypnosis. Like, it's obviously a mental world existing in Kat's head. That's mind control, not universe level reality warping.

Why ignore the fact she's wrong? But the character who actually DID it, says she did. Why would Kat know better?

Of course, the world is created from facets of her memory, but that means nothing, at all, that's a super common trope even.

Fact is, Cyan made a world based on her memory, that's still making a world. Hell, it's made from FUTURE memory too, it's way more abstract than you're implying. And worst part?


Kat says Cyan claims to have made a world, AND she says she herself knows **** all. Her calling it hypnosis was out of actual ignorance that even she admits to.

 

[Armorchompy]

I was asked to input but not being familiar with the lore I'll stick to commenting on a few things I see for now.

Question for you here, why would Kat have more authority here than the god who literally says they just created a world? And yes while the world is assembled from "fragments" of Kat's subconscious it ultimately contains information that Kat would not normally have herself since the dimension not only is made from experiences Kat has had in the past and present but also made of those from the future that she would not have yet experienced.

Yeah with this context the "hypnosis" bit is clearly just Kat being confused, not really making an informed statement about the situation. The future scan in particular definitely implies this is real in some form.

I suppose the difference is that Dalesean doesn't extend this property to the powers after Lumino and Tenebria stole them. But, well, in their fight they did no impressive feat.
We are told that Raven can not defeat them without Phoenix Mode, but that alone doesn't mean an infinite difference in power. It only means that they became powerful enough for Raven to need additional power to win.
And, well, as shown above the Creators can use their powers to interfere with fate in a minor way. So against Raven that would result in a minor power-up. Things like how they seemingly boosted their regeneration to make it so that Raven can't defeat them without the power-up.
But it stands to reason that Lumino and Tenebria can't use the Creator's powers to break the laws of the world, that prevent interference with fate, in more severe ways than the Creators themselves. Otherwise gifting someone their powers would let the Creator's resolve everything immediately.

So, yeah... Lumino and Tenebria shouldn't be infinitely stronger than they were before in the fight with Raven. Both logic and depiction of the battle indicate this.

I see the logic here (for the bit where they inherit the weaknesses, them not doing anything impressive with the powers means very little) but it's an assumption, not necessarily an illogical one but it doesn't erase the viability of the feat 100%.

Destroying the world that slowly can't be the grounds for a Low 2-C rating.

It... can? "Overtime" doesn't mean much when time itself is being destroyed.

Gravity Rush doesn't feature planets. Instead, everyone lives either on the World Pillar or on floating islands. Of course, looking in the sky allows one to see a sun or even stars. The question is, though: If planets aren't a thing, are those actually giant celestial bodies that are cosmic distances away or are they light sources of a different nature?

The former Like this is just headcanon dude, I'm not denying the possibility (granted this is a pretty long reach) *but you can't sell it as 100% factual.

This is being used to say that Gade clearly isn't 2-C let alone 7-C or at least that his abilities don't apply to his physicals however there is a fatal problem with this and its that one of course from what we mentioned before Gade can't fight back for one anyways due to that being something that will go against the fate of the world causing him to be erased

I don't really get the rest but for this bit, being unable to fight back wouldn't make you not invulnerable to a 7-C attack. So that specific bit doesn't work.

Also IGN is entirely wrong in their assessment and I'm not even sure why you're taking them as a end all be all here. Panther Mode is usable anywhere once its unlocked in the game, you don't have to be going up against strong opponents or anything of the sort as its essentially just a come back mechanic outside of its few canonical uses [...] attack, she tries yes but its instantly shattered and she's sent flying, hardly what I'd call blocking.

Yeah this is a pretty conclusive debunk imo.

Also this part is funny cause its specifically mentioned they only need the missiles to take advantage of her weakness to fire which allows them to make her drop her barriers. Otherwise it's not like she's scaling to tier 2 for this to even matter considering she's one shot several times by their transformations.

I'd like a scan for that just in case

Raven is also stated to be able to damage Lumino and Tenebria with absorbed powers in Base Mode, just not enough to defeat them. It will make them lose some of their power, though, which then goes towards Raven('s memory). So is she damaging infinitely stronger beings? In gameplay she also can tank attacks from them.

Man, for real? This is a gameplay tip that still straight-up states she can't defeat them. I'm not saying it's nothing but like, it's not much, all it tells us is she can somewhat affect them in gameplay, I get that at face value it does imply the gap isn't infinite but it really isn't worth much.

 

[Dalesean027]

I'd like a scan for that just in case

A direct statement

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, I've read the OP and both summaries about the Low 2-C stuff. I have also read some tidbits about the guidebook situation (which frankly I will hold my opinion on that because I've gotten pretty mad reading it).

Dalesean just makes more sense to me here.

I haven't read the 7-C side of the discussion so for now don't have an opinion. I will comeback later to read that part and try to give my thoughts, assuming others don't do it first.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah with this context the "hypnosis" bit is clearly just Kat being confused, not really making an informed statement about the situation. The future scan in particular definitely implies this is real in some form.

I would argue that containing future memories doesn't make it real. Getting a place from the future and a memory of the future is both equally (in)possible. Note how before and after that trip, Kat sits in the same place and in more or less the same position as she started as well. It also is a place made from memories, which strongly indicates it's mental when combined with Kat's statement.
I don't think Cyanea's statement that she created a world conflicts with this. It's specifically called a world made from fragments of her subconscious. One can call a dream world a world and a world made from subconsciousness should be mental until proven otherwise.

I see the logic here (for the bit where they inherit the weaknesses, them not doing anything impressive with the powers means very little) but it's an assumption, not necessarily an illogical one but it doesn't erase the viability of the feat 100%.

Yeah, but I think we need solid evidence in favor of ranking characters Low 2-C, not solid evidence against it. A higher rating not being outright contradictory does not imply it is valid.
This goes especially for characters who don't do anything even remotely on the scale of the claimed power. It's of course perfectly possible to argue in favor of characters having AP far beyond their demonstrated DC, but to claim an infinite gap in that some solid evidence is needed. If there is a way that reconciles the facts better with the on-screen performance, that seems like the preferable option to me.

It... can? "Overtime" doesn't mean much when time itself is being destroyed.

We have no evidence that it destroys the past or anything. Technically we should be talking about 3-A rating when it comes to optimistic interpretations of Destructive Force feats.
As said, the best destruction we see is it destroying a few kilometers of stuff over several years, at a rate so slow that people don't even notice.

And honestly, even for timeline destruction I would consider it questionable. Remember that we don't rank destroying tiny timelines as Low 2-C, but just hax. And this guy only does tiny damage to the world each day.

The former Like this is just headcanon dude, I'm not denying the possibility (granted this is a pretty long reach) *but you can't sell it as 100% factual.

I'm not, but it's a possibility to be considered. Like, if you say that the Creator power restrictions don't 100% erase the viability of the relevance in the Raven fight, this is also not 100% irrelevant.

Once again we don't use in game damage and enemy health bars to determine scaling, that's just not how that works Also IGN is entirely wrong in their assessment and I'm not even sure why you're taking them as a end all be all here. Panther Mode is usable anywhere once its unlocked in the game, you don't have to be going up against strong opponents or anything of the sort as its essentially just a come back mechanic outside of its few canonical uses which. Heck one of its activation conditions is just having low health, heck that's how the guy activates it in the video you sent for the Kali boss fight. So regardless of the damage the form does as just a general boost in gameplay in the cutscene it entirely one shot Kali. Also man as far as the wiki goes we do not consider what Cecie did as "blocking" the attack, she tries yes but its instantly shattered and she's sent flying, hardly what I'd call blocking.

I could be wrong. I looked for the most "official" source I could find on the matter which just happened to be IGN.
However, can I ask for a clip that is not in the mines but in regular overworld gameplay or something? I know Panther mode can be used in certain side missions and challenges (which would include the mines), as it's of course a gameplay feature, but can it actually be used outside of that?

Also this part is funny cause its specifically mentioned they only need the missiles to take advantage of her weakness to fire which allows them to make her drop her barriers. Otherwise it's not like she's scaling to tier 2 for this to even matter considering she's one shot several times by their transformations.

A Low 2-C with a weakness to Tier 8 fire? Well, it's just the shield. She can be harmed by non-missile things as well, though. The clip you show has her be damaged by Base Raven right after.

And neither are one-shot. Elektricide repeatedly survives hits. Kat doesn't go down to one hit from Elektricide in base either.

Man, for real? This is a gameplay tip that still straight-up states she can't defeat them. I'm not saying it's nothing but like, it's not much, all it tells us is she can somewhat affect them in gameplay, I get that at face value it does imply the gap isn't infinite but it really isn't worth much.

We need to judge the fights somehow. If we say nothing counts, I could question whether Tenebria and Lumino are glass cannons and Raven just never tanked hits outside of gameplay and hence doesn't scale.

I would say it makes one interpretative option vastly more plausible than the other. Namely, the one where Raven can damage them, but not defeat them as they simply regenerate like the text says.

Remember: Nothing of this exists in isolation. We have reasons that explain why they are not Low 2-C, they demonstrate no feats close to Low 2-C, we have the text tell us they can be damaged by base Raven, we have the gameplay show us the same.
If we have two possible interpretations, why would we go for the high-tier one that doesn't align with all other hints we get on the power dynamics, instead of going with the low-tier one that perfectly aligns with all of them?
My interpretation is IMO clearly more consistent with all the surrounding context. The two standards we have for choosing between differing interpretations is to make it the one more consistent or the one more conservative. Both of those factors are on my side IMO.

 

[Dalesean027]

I would argue that containing future memories doesn't make it real. Getting a place from the future and a memory of the future is both equally (in)possible. Note how before and after that trip, Kat sits in the same place and in more or less the same position as she started as well. It also is a place made from memories, which strongly indicates it's mental when combined with Kat's statement.
I don't think Cyanea's statement that she created a world conflicts with this. It's specifically called a world made from fragments of her subconscious. One can call a dream world a world and a world made from subconsciousness should be mental until proven otherwise.

Call it whatever you want but the point remains the same that the Gods are still able to create worlds which you tried to write off as just being hypnosis but since you're agreeing it is another world now I'll take that as you admitting your previous argument was wrong.

Yeah, but I think we need solid evidence in favor of ranking characters Low 2-C, not solid evidence against it. A higher rating not being outright contradictory does not imply it is valid.
This goes especially for characters who don't do anything even remotely on the scale of the claimed power. It's of course perfectly possible to argue in favor of characters having AP far beyond their demonstrated DC, but to claim an infinite gap in that some solid evidence is needed. If there is a way that reconciles the facts better with the on-screen performance, that seems like the preferable option to me.

they have plenty of statements and lore that supports it from reputable sources.

We have no evidence that it destroys the past or anything. Technically we should be talking about 3-A rating when it comes to optimistic interpretations of Destructive Force feats.
As said, the best destruction we see is it destroying a few kilometers of stuff over several years, at a rate so slow that people don't even notice.

And honestly, even for timeline destruction I would consider it questionable. Remember that we don't rank destroying tiny timelines as Low 2-C, but just hax. And this guy only does tiny damage to the world each day.

Not sure why you're calling it a tiny timeline when I've already shown the existence of other stars across the sky in several dimensions, just because we don't get to see other planets isn't an anti-feat, we would just treat these as being full worlds and we know they are all completely separated normally able to ever even connect or interact normally even the guide outright says this which I already sent before. Hell Gade outright refers to the world as a universe. We se stars in the sky in several dimensions and they're called a universe by literal god, I think we've got more than enough considering all the statements I've given

I'm not, but it's a possibility to be considered. Like, if you say that the Creator power restrictions don't 100% erase the viability of the relevance in the Raven fight, this is also not 100% irrelevant.

okay this is completely irrelevant if you don't have anything that supports the claim you tried to make, that was headcanon so drop it

However, can I ask for a clip that is not in the mines but in regular overworld gameplay or something? I know Panther mode can be used in certain side missions and challenges (which would include the mines), as it's of course a gameplay feature, but can it actually be used outside of that?

Well for one you yourself would know the regular overworld has no enemies normally UNLESS you are doing a mission be it story or side quest and even those are restricted to certain segments of the game, otherwise though outside of both of those the only other place you could go for combat would have to be the different dimension mines which is what those are there for exploration and fighting enemies. Here's one from doing the Delvool trench challenge.

A Low 2-C with a weakness to Tier 8 fire? Well, it's just the shield. She can be harmed by non-missile things as well, though. The clip you show has her be damaged by Base Raven right after.

And neither are one-shot. Elektricide repeatedly survives hits. Kat doesn't go down to one hit from Elektricide in base either.

Okay for one the only one scaling her to low 2-C would be you, Even my CRT I haven't scaled her as such. She's currently town level my guy so idk why you're trying to twist things like I've even once agreed or argued that she's low 2-C. Also my guy what do you think having a weakness is, ******* Martian Manhunter is weak to fire and he's a damn Solar System buster to 2-C goon right now. Is his weakness invalid because of tier? No because that's how a damn weakness works. Anywho yes outside of the gameplays need to have the boss fight play out like a boss fight when it comes down to the cutscenes she is again and again one shot by their transformations and again context.

And yeah the Elektricitie fight does have you canonically use Panther Mode and in the cutscenes here and here we see both Kat and Raven one shotting her with Elektricitie regenerating from it being besides the point as her coming back from being particles is just a regen feat, there's also the fact that her true self seemingly wasn't what was actual being destroyed before either with Cyanae giving Kat the means to discern the real Elektricitie to deal a lethal blow with her still one shotting her after transforming into gravity panther and attacking her real body. If I splatter you into paste with an attack and you regenerate from it that certainly doesn't mean you scale to said attack. Otherwise we're using the same argument of in game damage scaling versus what we actually see in cutscenes.

Super Regeneration (Can come back from being literal particles), Wasn't even attack the real one to begin with, when Kat does find the real one she one shots her.
Like you pointed out she fights Base Kat but when the game wants Kat to transform into Gravity Panther

Remember: Nothing of this exists in isolation. We have reasons that explain why they are not Low 2-C, they demonstrate no feats close to Low 2-C, we have the text tell us they can be damaged by base Raven, we have the gameplay show us the same.
If we have two possible interpretations, why would we go for the high-tier one that doesn't align with all other hints we get on the power dynamics, instead of going with the low-tier one that perfectly aligns with all of them?
My interpretation is IMO clearly more consistent with all the surrounding context. The two standards we have for choosing between differing interpretations is to make it the one more consistent or the one more conservative. Both of those factors are on my side IMO

the game expressly gives a functional gameplay reason why raven can damage then in the fight at all even though they literally say she can't beat them in the actual cutscene themself and in the tutorial.

The very clip you send specifically explains why you would want to try fighting them all which just comes down to a gameplay mechanic once again. "If you are having trouble locating a memory, defeat them to gain a hint to its location." Pretty clear why that's here at at all but going to the lore side again Creator Bit tells Raven that she doesn't near possess the power to actually do anything against them. She specifically needs to gather her memories to awaken her Phoenix Mode to defeat them. Considering the game has them chasing you around the map until you actually find the hidden memories it's pretty safe for them to add a way for you to use them to your advantage to find them so you aren't exactly having unkillable boss enemies chasing you down forever cause you can't find what you need to progress.

 

[Armorchompy]

I would argue that containing future memories doesn't make it real. Getting a place from the future and a memory of the future is both equally (in)possible. Note how before and after that trip, Kat sits in the same place and in more or less the same position as she started as well. It also is a place made from memories, which strongly indicates it's mental when combined with Kat's statement.
I don't think Cyanea's statement that she created a world conflicts with this. It's specifically called a world made from fragments of her subconscious. One can call a dream world a world and a world made from subconsciousness should be mental until proven otherwise.

Eh? Being created off her mind could be either, frankly. If it was the only feat at that level i'd ignore it but it's not entirely invalid.

Yeah, but I think we need solid evidence in favor of ranking characters Low 2-C, not solid evidence against it. A higher rating not being outright contradictory does not imply it is valid.
This goes especially for characters who don't do anything even remotely on the scale of the claimed power. It's of course perfectly possible to argue in favor of characters having AP far beyond their demonstrated DC, but to claim an infinite gap in that some solid evidence is needed. If there is a way that reconciles the facts better with the on-screen performance, that seems like the preferable option to me.

"They inherited the power of Low 2-C characters" is pretty dang solid as is. Like all the rest is just gesturing at the possibility that they're not that high and that doesn't mean anything.

We have no evidence that it destroys the past or anything. Technically we should be talking about 3-A rating when it comes to optimistic interpretations of Destructive Force feats.
As said, the best destruction we see is it destroying a few kilometers of stuff over several years, at a rate so slow that people don't even notice.

If you think the feat isn't tier 2 to begin with that's a different argument you need to make, right now it's rated as tier 2 so the claim holds no weight.

And honestly, even for timeline destruction I would consider it questionable. Remember that we don't rank destroying tiny timelines as Low 2-C, but just hax. And this guy only does tiny damage to the world each day.

Yeah but that's not the same thing so that doesn't matter. Like standards RN don't say anything about tier 2 feats being very overtime being something we should have special standards for, unlike small timelines, so.

I'm not, but it's a possibility to be considered. Like, if you say that the Creator power restrictions don't 100% erase the viability of the relevance in the Raven fight, this is also not 100% irrelevant.

It's a possibility, doesn't mean it needs to be considered, given there's no real evidence towards it. Like if we saw an actual star and it was small, I'd agree with you, I did with Elden Ring, but "there are no conventional planets" doesn't really imply much in the face of there not being stars. I can think of plenty of verses with normal-sized planets and tiny stars, for starters.

 

[Dalesean027]

@SamanPatou @Agnaa @Deagonx @Everything12

Can we get review of my final arguments vs DTs

 

[Chariot190]

Not that my vote means shit, but Dale makes more sense imo
some of the shit ****** weird tho but eh, is what it is.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Not that my vote means shit, but Dale makes more sense imo
some of the shit ****** weird tho but eh, is what it is.

Same.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looking over, on second thought, the destruction of the universe may be over time. And thus still Low 2-C given it cannot be divided by timeframe. But I still agree that if there is no detailed UES for the verse, scaling to physical attacks won't be a default. Nor is there any proof anybody survives it. And even if there was a UES, there is still the roadblock that casual attacks do not always downscale from the final attack of the universe wide destruction.

Basically, I do not mind a Low 2-C rating, but perhaps I'd avoid using it for scaling to physical stats unless I am missing something.

 

[Dalesean027]

Basically, I do not mind a Low 2-C rating, but perhaps I'd avoid using it for scaling to physical stats unless I am missing something

Yeah you're missing a lot, seems you've only read the black hole scaling and not anything involving the creators and Lumino and Tenebria

To speed run through this because I don't diving too far, we're gonna go ahead and summarize the details of the GR2 Raven's choice DLC and why Lumino and Tenebria scale to the creators starting out the world in the DLC the worst is found repairing itself with the power taken from Gade and Cyanae but to give a bit more clarification on this let's number the events here.
1 - The experiment with the arc had an explosive effect on the world allowing the the actual power source of the arc that being the elements of light and darkness themself to leave the arc and form into keepers which alongside other variables cause time across the entire world to freeze and need repairs. The damage has already been done by the bugs which is why Gade comments in the first place on those making it hard for him to maintain the world again he specifically.

2 - Lumino and Tenebria absorbed still nearly the entirety of their creator powers.

3 - When defeated their being as the elements of light and dark are returned to the arc as its power source on top of the creator powers they absorbed being what's used to repair the world, that's why they aren't just getting their powers given back to them as returning the power source of ark alone isn't going to repair the world because like they say its not just light and dark leaving the arc as its power source that messes everything up as there are other variables cause time across the entire world to freeze and need repairs. The arc would already be fine with just the elements that power it itself being returned but they still need to repair the world as well hence the added usage of their creator powers that were taken by Lumino and Tenebria.

Now this as I said is where the actual main part of the Low 2-C scaling comes from as the Black Hole was just support but getting into things, in Gravity Rush 2's DLC Raven Defeated Lumino and Tenebria after they absorbed the Creators Gade and Cyanae's powers taking nearly all of their them, with Gade having been the one who created the world[1] with himself referring to it as a "universe"[2] and with his power holds the world together and being the gateway to other worlds that also contain starry sky's, Cyanae forms the world that Gravity Rush's setting takes place in with everything in it being figments of her imagination. Translation of the guidebook statements for the are here: Gade, Cyanae, Bit (Translations come from here). Now before we get into this any Deeper here are the OPs arguments for this scaling.