Gravity Falls: Cosmology Revamp + Adding some stuff

[StrymULTRA]

BRUH what is this?

This is why he got demoted.

Anyway...

The Nightmare Realm doesn't contain universes to even a "Low Multiverse level" degree, to put it shortly.

This is absurd. The Nightmare Realm is between all the infinite universes, which not only act as different timelines, but also are explicitly called as such. How can it be not even 2-C sized?

But even if they were, they would have no evidence to be universe-sized.

They're explicitly called timelines and universes. But whatever.

My interpretation of the comic was that "dimension Mab-3l" was narrative bs; There is no dimension Mab-3I, the comic & the Mabel who said that lied/made that sh*t up. They simply called that place that way bc all those Mabels are there.

1) This does not disprove that there are still infinite timelines though. There are other statements of infinite universes being there.

2) The exact same thing was repeated from Blendin for another place. You can't just say that stuff is false because it's not convenient for you.

I don't know where to start: That is not that bult, it's just a simple wormhole. A bult implies it encompasses the universes in itself (Hey, like Bill's profile says), which is contradictory to the fact that the Nightmare Realm is between those universes, it's not a part of them. A wormhole is just a display of the mechanics of a portal/interdimensional travel. And what do we see in the image? Quote "(Bill's) insight is surely real, as are the blueprints he left me for a portal to another dimension . . . " (And then it shows the image you show). Context being, the happy "weirdness dimension" is a lie, Bill is tricking Ford into making a portal to his dimension, the Nightmare Realm.

1) A bulk and and a wormhole are not mutually exclusive. Branes can still act as portals between each other, what the hell.

2) Bill did not lie, he just never said to Ford once where the portal would lead to, if you see here. Plus Bill himself was not technically wrong, he just said that this "weirdness dimension" is the source of the weirdness, because of the Earth being in a weak spot between dimensions, and Gravity Falls specifically being the core of this instability. Bill did not lie, Ford is just seething because he did not like what he was searching for.

I believe your desire for higher stats overpowered your ability to understand this properly.

This is why he got demoted.

Universe is a hologram yap

Weird coming from someone who made a whole essay on why Bill does not really lie. Anyway, Bill lying about this is doodoo the moment when:

1) The BoB website confirms that it's true outside Bill's words literally twice.

2) Just because Bill is goofy while explaining it does not mean it's false.

3) The statements about the lies are just... out of context? Because it's stated twice in the Book that "even his lies are lies" (here and here, with the latter being obtained through literally typing "EVEN HIS LIES ARE LIES"). Not to mention that:

• Bill admitted his weaknesses (with all of these being proven to be true through the series, as synthesized music is indeed physically harms him, he cannot enter inside heads protected by aluminium and is even said by Ford in Journal 3, the Memory Gun has indeed killed him, the lack of a physical form is a plot point in the series, and the Quantum thing being mostly likely the Quantum Desabilizer, which Ford himself also said it can permanently kill Bill via destabilizing his quantum nature).
• Alex himself said it's up to the reader to get what's true and false between what is Bill saying, with some of the lies being painfully obvious things, like Bill purposelly covering the truth behind the liberation of the 2nd dimension, saying that they're fine instead, Bill saying that Dipper was just joking about being possessed, or the Book not having any secret code, when it has plenty).
• The shaman who met Bill is also mentioned by Ford in Journal 3.

These are all evidence that simply discarding Bill's statements as just bs is just a sorry attempt to downplay and ignoring evidence.

Between=/=Encompassing.

Says who? We've got plenty of cosmologies that encompass universes while also being outside of their reach.

Plus if you're gonna call explicit mentions of higher dimensions or infinite size just "circumstantial", then not gonna bother either.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ngl this kinda of says to me that it's better a page than a blog at this point.

 

[Planck69]

@Elizhaa @Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @DontTalkDT

Any input here would be appreciated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I may help with a brief summary

 

[StrymULTRA]

I may help with a brief summary

Elaborate please? I don't really get what you mean.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Elaborate please? I don't really get what you mean.

If someone can write a brief summary of the proposals. Or quote one if there is already.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If someone can write a brief summary of the proposals. Or quote one if there is already.

To make a summary as short as reasonably possible:

• Right now the cosmology is "Low 1-C (5D), possibly 1-B (12D)" because of you know, the yap about Bulk space which encopasses and transcends the 4D multiverse, which is possibly 11D due to Trillax beta existing. The Book of Bill, if you see the new cosmology blog, gave some new statements about higher dimensions, like Bill stating that no one in the 2D world could comprehend the 3D like him due to lacking the direction of UP, and also saying that the aliens are 7D. The thread aims to make the scale instead "1-C (6D), possibly 1-B (13D) because of the Nightmare Realm being not one, but two degrees of infinity above the multiverse due to it having also a hypertimeline among infinite ones.
  • I can also technically argye that the base tier can be 9D instead of 6D if we take the fact that the aliens do start at 7D, and can also be 11D "at times", which can imply that the multiverse can be argued to be 7D at minimum due to its inhabitants being such, though I can understand if it's shaky to argue, given that GF still explicitly works under string theory, where the extra dimensions there are finite compared to the 3 dimensions we live in, as extra-dimensional strings are instead wrapped around the universe. It's not in OP but is a consideration I had just now.
• Then there's a whole yap about a potential R>F thing that can be 1-A (not for Bill though), but apparently it has a contradiction, which I give two options on how to deal with it. There I cannot give a summary, as it's the minimal info I can give here:

There's the infamous "feat" of Pre-Weirdmageddon Bill and Time Baby going in Dennis' world and even moving a card holder with their physical strenght. For context, it is a world that perceives the multiverse as an illusion due to it being merely a hologram projected in a trading card which, for anything happening to it, the same happens to the world within it, something that Bill himself relates to the string theory, which is also mentioned by himself and others both in the series and in supplementary materials (1 and 2). This leaves us with some choices:

• Option 1: The event is an anti-feat for 1-A, meaning that Dennis is just +1D compared to the rest of the cosmology. Considering how the verse makes it clear that Reality-Fiction gaps can be explained by dimensionality differences in-verse, due to Ford saying that the world within a comic is 2-D and similar showings, it'll mean that the High 1-C part of the cosmology will be solidified as it gives us a confirmation that higher dimensions in GF are always infinitely larger than lower ones, making the Nightmare Realm straight up 1-B (13-D) and Dennis' World also to 1-B but higher (14-D). This would technically count as a 14-D feat for Bill and Time Baby, especially when the card holds within it all the infinite Nightmare Realms and is superior to them (though it does feel wrong, especially if you look at Option 2).
• Option 2: The event can be ignored as it is a complete outlier for Bill and Time Baby due to the fact that Bill himself could fight evenly against the Shacktron, which is merely powered by a portal that has shaken a single Nightmare Realm out of the infinite ones, other than Time Baby also saying that Bill is a threat for a single timeline, or Bill very explicitly affecting a single Nightmare Realm in his most powerful form. This would make Dennis' world still 1-A, if we take in account the fact that the "2-D" comic world acts like a 3-D one (examples here, here and especially here) despite the fact that we saw other 2-D worlds acting like one would expect to, meaning that in that case it acts as a qualitatively inferior world (note that Giffany and Rumble's worlds are excluded here as they come out from actual electricity, meaning that their gap isn't a qualitative one either, especially when they're potrayed as having the same level of existence). It should be also noted that similairly to Dennis' world, affecting the paper of the comic affects the comic world, too. This obviously leaves the "possibly 11-D" stuff unchanged too.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

• I can also technically argye that the base tier can be 9D instead of 6D if we take the fact that the aliens do start at 7D, and rcan also be 11D "at times", which can imply that the multiverse can be argued to be 7D at minimum due to its inhabitants being such

Meh, if 7D Multiverse is solid then so is 11D Multiverse, you can’t do both.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Meh, if 7D Multiverse is solid then so is 11D Multiverse, you can’t do both.

Listen, idc if 11D gets ****** in favor of 7D, given that Bill DOES mention strings as existing in the cosmology (so maybe 11D here is just the extension of said 7D, same to how the 1D strings can access to higher dimensions as well in the normal string theory).

I just wanted to give some benefit of the doubt, but if people are fine with just 9D Bill, then I won't oppose.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Listen, idc if 11D gets ****** in favor of 7D, given that Bill DOES mention strings as existing in the cosmology (so maybe 11D here is just the extension of said 7D, same to how the 1D strings can access to higher dimensions as well in the normal string theory).

I just wanted to give some benefit of the doubt, but if people are fine with just 9D Bill, then I won't oppose.

Uh… what I meant is 7D position is same 11D. You can’t have them rated differently. They come from the same entity: pan-dimensional aliens. So 7D, possibly/no 11D is nonsense.
I am not pushing towards solid 1-B, I firmly don’t care about it on this wiki.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Uh… what I meant is 7D position is same 11D. You can’t have them rated differently. They come from the same entity: pan-dimensional aliens. So 7D, possibly/no 11D is nonsense.

Fair enough.

I think that logically it's either "4D, possibly 11D", or just 7D, then.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Damn I realized that I forgot to explain to DDM the P&A and speed stuff.

If someone can write a brief summary of the proposals. Or quote one if there is already.

It's all in OP btw. It is not a tedious read.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose Option 2 looks plausible.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I suppose Option 2 looks plausible.

What about the rest though?

@Elizhaa @Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @DontTalkDT

Any input here would be appreciated.

Btw, about this

I can also technically argye that the base tier can be 9D instead of 6D if we take the fact that the aliens do start at 7D, and can also be 11D "at times", which can imply that the multiverse can be argued to be 7D at minimum due to its inhabitants being such, though I can understand if it's shaky to argue, given that GF still explicitly works under string theory, where the extra dimensions there are finite compared to the 3 dimensions we live in, as extra-dimensional strings are instead wrapped around the universe. It's not in OP but is a consideration I had just now.

Listen, idc if 11D gets ****** in favor of 7D, given that Bill DOES mention strings as existing in the cosmology (so maybe 11D here is just the extension of said 7D, same to how the 1D strings can access to higher dimensions as well in the normal string theory).

I just wanted to give some benefit of the doubt, but if people are fine with just 9D Bill, then I won't oppose.

 

[Churchill]

I really watched this thread from the old one just to see it get lost in Mabel's bubble, Lmao
Anyway, I think option A makes way more sense. Iirc, Ultima said you can't become 1-A with your own power, else the supposed "1-A" you scale to isn't 1-A to begin with.
Kinda sceptical on immeasurable speed, though.....fine with everything else

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump cuz I can

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

 

[StrymULTRA]

Given that I noticed that the standards for the Hypertimeline are harder than I thought, I added in the blog a more detailed explanation on why it qualifies as such.

Also bump

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I agree with everything proposed by the OP, except 1-A.

I disagree with some points, maybe I'll elaborate later

What points?

 

[StrymULTRA]

People you have to explain why you disagree.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

People you have to explain why you disagree.

You can't force us

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

bump?

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I haven't commented here yet, huh

Anyway, the prosposals, mainly the new Cosmology Blog, look good.

Gotta agree with Option 2 regarding Mindscape Bill's feat, not only him having Tier 1 levels of before Weirdmaggedon is absurd, but excluding the feat as an Outlier would be equal to completely ignoring it's implications on the series powerscaling (AKA, Bill and Time Baby interacting with Dennis' world wouldn't be considered an anti-feat for a true R>F relationship)

Question: Wasn't one of the reasons 11D was just considered a "possibly" due to these dimensions being compactified (Just like those of String Theory, which canonically exists on GF)? What's the argument for them being actual dimensions?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Question: Wasn't one of the reasons 11D was just considered a "possibly" due to these dimensions being compactified (Just like those of String Theory, which canonically exists on GF)? What's the argument for them being actual dimensions?

Because it might also operate under brane theory, and NR was shown to be a brane, iirc. Also aliens losing coordination while being in 3D which would be kinda dumb if all of higher dimensions were smaller than an atom or smth.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Should I ******* yell like a monkey for this thread to get attention?

(Bump)

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

hmmm bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

So going over the core topics

The Nightmare Realm gets from 5/12-D to 6/13-D, and there are infinitely more of them in the overall cosmology, and the "possibly" probably becomes a "likely".

This part

Despite it being outside all the timelines and housing them, the Nightmare Realm seems to have its own flow of time, due to it having clearly its own timeline

Does not qualify for two temporal dimensions. A temporal dimension is just time moving in some fashion of forwards-backwards, with additional axis needed if that forwards-backwards motion cannot be used for all timelines.

The only thing that can imply that it's on a second-dimensional axis is the 4th dimension being directly responsible for time

• Dennis' world either is 1-A or is 1-B (14-D).

Dennis' world is not 1-A or 1-B. Even an infinite power increase does not cover the gap between anything and 1-A. The gap is beyond the concept of numbers or power. Even the the largest number of numeric sets will not cover the gap to 1-A.

Bill going to Dennis world at all automatically disqualifies it from 1-A. It being 1-B is possible due to upscaling.

• Bill gets Type 9 Immortality and an infinite speed feat.

Sure I guess

For the tiering I'm more in favor of the 5/12-D end but either one would work.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Does not qualify for two temporal dimensions. A temporal dimension is just time moving in some fashion of forwards-backwards, with additional axis needed if that forwards-backwards motion cannot be used for all timelines.

The only thing that can imply that it's on a second-dimensional axis is the 4th dimension being directly responsible for time

How is that not qualifying?

It has its own past and future that's not the same as the universes inside, and has its own multiple different versions with Bill Cipher(s) in. It's basically how DBS qualified, why this doesn't?

Bill going to Dennis world at all automatically disqualifies it from 1-A. It being 1-B is possible due to upscaling.

I'd say that Bill still going to Dennis' world and even bumping the card holder is a gag/outlier because it'd make 0 sense with the plot of the show.

Idc if it's not 1-A, but the thing is at very least +1D.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It has its own past and future that's not the same as the universes inside, and has its own multiple different versions with Bill Cipher(s) in. It's basically how DBS qualified, why this doesn't?

No, DBS qualified because you had 12 realms within the same space that could have time be ended in one but not affect the rest, which would indicate a second axis in the void.

It's why I mentioned what would qualify is the 4th Dimension being time and the Nightmare Realm having a different stream still. It just having one in general is not a justification.

I'd say that Bill still going to Dennis' world and even bumping the card holder is a gag/outlier because it'd make 0 sense with the plot of the show.

Afaik that's not a valid excuse for 1-A. PIS or whatever isn't a valid counter-showing. If it happens it's an automatic instance of counter-evidence.

Idc if it's not 1-A, but the thing is at very least +1D.

Maybe, but a dimensional difference still requires a boost greater than infinite and them interacting with the realm makes it all questionable to my understanding.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No, DBS qualified because you had 12 realms within the same space that could have time be ended in one but not affect the rest, which would indicate a second axis in the void.

Mh... Couldn't GF have something similar?

Because:

• I'd remember you that Gravity Falls follows something akin to a Type 2 Multiverse where there are infinite universes that can have different dimensionalities, and Bill destroyed his 2D universe without affecting the rest.
• Unless I missed something, Sonic got also a second spatial axis off a similar reason as what I said.
• The Nightmare Realm on its own is lawless and lacks regular physics and causality, and one of the universes has time going backwards.

It's why I mentioned what would qualify is the 4th Dimension being time and the Nightmare Realm having a different stream still. It just having one in general is not a justification.

I'll try in thinking of a way to implement it, alright.

Afaik that's not a valid excuse for 1-A. PIS or whatever isn't a valid counter-showing. If it happens it's an automatic instance of counter-evidence.

You'd have to argue with the FAQ to say this:

Note, also, the pertinence of Plot-Induced Stupidity and similar factors when weighing out whether certain showings are valid disqualifiers. Overall, it depends entirely on a combination of the nature of the showings themselves, their importance, and the verse's general insistence on the transcendence of the realm being interacted with. Individual analysis is to be employed for each particular case.

Maybe, but a dimensional difference still requires a boost greater than infinite and them interacting with the realm makes it all questionable to my understanding.

Gravity Falls is wonky about it, as the whole 11D aliens thing is an example, same with Bill being able to enter and interact with 3D beings despite being 2D himself, or Stanford being literally harmed and almost killed by 2D beings when he put his head in the 2D world.

I wouldn't really call this a disqualifier, just how the verse treats dimensional gaps (and I'd remind you that comic worlds there are explicitly 2Dimensional, and game characters like Rumble also behave as such when in the 3D world, but that did not stop him from beating Dipper to a pulp).

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is never passing jfc.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I really wonder why the standards for stacking temporal dimensions are mentioned when the temporal dimension of the Nightmare Realm is stacked on spatial dimension.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I really wonder why the standards for stacking temporal dimensions are mentioned when the temporal dimension of the Nightmare Realm is stacked on spatial dimension.

Because it follows its own separate flow of time from the universes inside it.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Because it follows its own separate flow of time from the universes inside it.

It is accepted that the 4-dimensional space-time continuum of the universes is embedded in the 5-dimensional space of the Nightmare Realm, and don't you claim that this 5-dimensional space is also embedded in the 6-dimensional space-time continuum of the Nightmare Realm?

This is different from verses like Dragon Ball, where a 4-dimensional space-time continuum is embedded in a 5-dimensional space-time continuum.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It is accepted that the 4-dimensional space-time continuum of the universes is embedded in the 5-dimensional space of the Nightmare Realm, and don't you claim that this 5-dimensional space is also embedded in the 6-dimensional space-time continuum of the Nightmare Realm?

1. How do you explain infinite other NRs
2. As said already in the previous thread, I based this on Kingdom Hearts, which follows the same logic.

 

[CodeCCLL]

How do you explain infinite other NRs

I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying. I'm asking you whether you claim that to explain infinitely different NR's, the 5-dimensional space of NR is embedded in a 6-dimensional space-time continuum (which must hold an uncountably infinite number of snapshots of NR, thus accounting for infinite NRs).

As said already in the previous thread, I based this on Kingdom

Then you claim that I said it literally.

As said here.

KH Low 1-C 6-D Arguments

vsbattles.fandom.com

Both KH's situation and GF's logic are the same. Here, there is spatial dimension embedded in temporal dimension, so the evidence required to prove that the temporal axis are orthogonal to each other, as in Dragon Ball, is not required here.

That's why I said I agree with +1-D Nightmare Realm's space-time continuum in previous crt.

But here it seems like you and Qawsed are discussing whether the temporal axis of the universes and the Nightmare Realm's temporal axis are orthogonal (actually, what you should be discussing is whether the Nightmare Realm is orthogonal to the temporal axis of the 5th spatial axis [a space-time continuum with Infinite NRs would already require being orthogonal]). I wonder about this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying. I'm asking you whether you claim that to explain infinitely different NR's, the 5-dimensional space of NR is embedded in a 6-dimensional space-time continuum (which must hold an uncountably infinite number of snapshots of NR, thus accounting for infinite NRs).

Bill describes each NR as being its own timeline, he never mentioned the snapshot thing (I mean, what verse does that).

I mostly said that each NR not only is stacked spatially, but also temporally because each NR also works as its higher timeline with its own variants, just like how the normal multiverse works.

But here it seems like you and Qawsed are discussing whether the temporal axis of the universes and the Nightmare Realm's temporal axis are orthogonal (actually, what you should be discussing is whether the Nightmare Realm is orthogonal to the temporal axis of the 5th spatial axis [a space-time continuum with Infinite NRs would already require being orthogonal]). I wonder about this.

The issue is that you're misunderstanding the thing.

No one here claimed that the Infinite NRs refer to merely snapshots of a single larger timeline. The context refers to Bill winning in all the infinite variants of the NR unlike the main one, and the fact that there's only 1 Bill per Multiverse kinda makes it clear tbh.

 

[RigelBR7]

I remember being mentioned that within the letter, there is the quantum wave function and string theory, which would correlate with the 11 dimensional symmetries, explaining where they come from. This would be more evident than trying to place them as possibly higher dimensions without additional evidence. Regarding 1-A, I clearly do not agree, as there is no true qualitative superiority, nor an exclusion of interaction from the lower to the higher plane. It is said that when he shakes the letter, the multiverse shakes? This is already evidence of a connection between the two, unlike a true R>F. I would say it can be applied as a higher dimension, where the card would be a hypersurface structure within a higher symmetry. Maybe 13D/6D if 12D-11D is not fully valid.