Granblue Fantasy cosmology update (2-B or possible low 1-C)

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @QuasiYuri @Qawsedf234

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Qawsedf234]

One of their Parallel timeline Granblue Versus also has this statement regarding the difference between Astral/Primarchs against Skydwellers being infinitesimal

For one this is not evidence of them actually being infinitesimal. A insult doesn't mean much without backing.

The Tier 2 stuff looks alright

Ellis Stamp has the ability to perceive 3D as flat and has a hyperdimensional perception that allows him to see the 4th dimension of time as positive and negative T-Axis that allows him to see past present and future or hack targets from the past and future while also connecting their present self to the past and future thus He cannot be completely severed once he has hacked someone and the effects can even manifest physically. Ellis was easily overloaded by the information and data contained by Primal Beast which caused him to crash and reboot

This also isn't evidence for Low 1-C. A person with the ability to perceive a 4th axis can still be overwhelmed by a 4th Dimensional entity that is to large or powerful for them to comprehend, which is what those dragons are. Its something already covered in the wide gaps between Low 2-C and 2-A.

Astral Realm is considered on a higher layer than the World of Sky-realm.

A higher realm =/= higher dimensional space. Something can be larger than something else without being infinitely larger.

One of Protobahamut's attacks is named Hyperdimension ignores any form of defense against it

Hyperdimension just means "Greater Dimension". The 4th Dimension is a hyperdimension

Furthermore into this. Yuni who is an Envoy of Cosmos needed to descend from the Astral Realm to reach the closed dimension. the closed-off dimension that Cosmos herself created is completely cut off from both the Astral Realm and Sky-realm but contained all of Sky-realm History similarly to Akasha who transcended the natural order of history and is capable of governing and manipulating all of Sky-realm history past present and future and it's capable of affecting the entire Spacetime and reset the entire world. Cosmos from simply watching in Astral Realm was able to foresee the existence of singularity near the end of history and all countless possibilities at the end of time depending on what fate the Singularity has chosen or how it manifested in Sky-realm.

This may lead to a Low 1-C rating, but I would need to look more into it.

 

[Zencha9]

A higher realm =/= higher dimensional space. Something can be larger than something else without being infinitely larger.

i don't see why it wouldn't be an infinitely higher space, given how someone with a higher dimensional perception views 3-D space as flat
since i'm pretty sure this is enough for R>F

 

[Qawsedf234]

given how someone with a higher dimensional perception views 3-D space as flat
since i'm pretty sure this is enough for R>F

That's..... what?

You view 2-D objects as flat, you do not qualify for R>F interaction. That is a power that goes above and beyond having more dimensional axis or dimensional perceptions. Viewing a 3-D object as flat is quite literally just 4-Dimensional vision.

 

[Zencha9]

That's..... what?

You view 2-D objects as flat, you do not qualify for R>F interaction. That is a power that goes above and beyond having more dimensional axis or dimensional perceptions. Viewing a 3-D object as flat is quite literally just 4-Dimensional vision.

pretty sure other verses use this thing for R>F justifcation but oh well

 

[Delta333]

pretty sure other verses use this thing for R>F justifcation but oh well

Please read the QnA page again

"However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case."

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

For one this is not evidence of them actually being infinitesimal. A insult doesn't mean much without backing.

Fair. although the idea of this is that Primarchs are the First Original primal beasts [1] [2] [3] [4].
which I assume makes them 4D base on what will be said below

This also isn't evidence for Low 1-C. A person with the ability to perceive a 4th axis can still be overwhelmed by a 4th Dimensional entity that is to large or powerful for them to comprehend, which is what those dragons are. Its something already covered in the wide gaps between Low 2-C and 2-A.

Fair but this does qualify the primal beast to be a 4-dimensional entity correct? this evidence is simply to argue how primal beasts are 4-dimensional because of the existence of 1 specific primal beast who also embody the history and spacetime of skies.

A higher realm =/= higher dimensional space. Something can be larger than something else without being infinitely larger.

Hyperdimension just means "Greater Dimension". The 4th Dimension is a hyperdimension

fair. these are collections of statements that simply support in a sense so they mean nothing alone

This may lead to a Low 1-C rating, but I would need to look more into it.

this one is missing one scan about the past and future from Akasha so adding it.
On another branch, Djeeta also found Akasha, and that allows her to freely move between timelines
This Djeeta should not be confused as the main timeline Captain because they are alternate timeline Djeeta just like Granblues and Granblue Versus

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234

What do you think should be done here?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think the Tier 2 rating work. The Tier 1 stuff is based on upscaling and I'm not to sure how that lines up due to my lack of proper understanding regarding the cosmology.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I think the Tier 2 rating work. The Tier 1 stuff is based on upscaling and I'm not to sure how that lines up due to my lack of proper understanding regarding the cosmology.

Tier 1 rating will come from The Creator. Whom got his powers split into 2 entity then the creation half created the Astral Realm and all astral who created primal beast. Which is also where Cosmos resides.
Originally the tier 2 rating before this crt was from being able to destroy pandemonium or Etemenanki which would destroy the dimensional boundary that was initially put in place which separates Crimson Horizon, Sky realm and Astral realm. Which would cause either the destruction of all 3 realms because of Chaos that can EE the 2 realm from Crimson Horizon or merge them.

If Astral Realm is approved as tier 1 then it would scale to the one who created it and the one who can destroy it and others who exist above both realms which is a handful. Lucilius,Sandalphon,Bahamut,Beelzebub, Captain, Shalem, and Cosmos(no profile yet)

Captain on the otherhand aside from directly fighting one of the creator, as singularity can affect both realms with his special destiny(fate manip) that he can use the law of the world to even reach beings even in the Astral Realm by making them a thing in the past basically ending their existence even if they are immortal and his death would cause the collapse of the world

Idk if Akasha would also scale since just like primal beast he would be a 4 dimensional entity but at the same time contains all of history within it and transcends it in a way.

Due to how everyone can fight MC scenario we have a rule regarding scaling from him and was explained in verse that because his nature as a singularity that speeds up evolution his powers varies depending on how strong his enemies and people shouldn't scale from him alone

 

[Antvasima]

Tier 1 rating will come from The Creator. Whom got his powers split into 2 entity then the creation half created the Astral Realm and all astral who created primal beast. Which is also where Cosmos resides.
Originally the tier 2 rating before this crt was from being able to destroy pandemonium or Etemenanki which would destroy the dimensional boundary that was initially put in place which separates Crimson Horizon, Sky realm and Astral realm. Which would cause either the destruction of all 3 realms because of Chaos that can EE the 2 realm from Crimson Horizon or merge them.

If Astral Realm is approved as tier 1 then it would scale to the one who created it and the one who can destroy it and others who exist above both realms which is a handful. Lucilius,Sandalphon,Bahamut,Beelzebub, Captain, Shalem, and Cosmos(no profile yet)

Captain on the otherhand aside from directly fighting one of the creator, as singularity can affect both realms with his special destiny(fate manip) that he can use the law of the world to even reach beings even in the Astral Realm by making them a thing in the past basically ending their existence even if they are immortal and his death would cause the collapse of the world

Idk if Akasha would also scale since just like primal beast he would be a 4 dimensional entity but at the same time contains all of history within it and transcends it in a way.

Due to how everyone can fight MC scenario we have a rule regarding scaling from him and was explained in verse that because his nature as a singularity that speeds up evolution his powers varies depending on how strong his enemies and people shouldn't scale from him alone

@Qawsedf234

Thank you for helping out.

What do you think about the above quote?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Tier 1 rating will come from The Creator. Whom got his powers split into 2 entity then the creation half created the Astral Realm and all astral who created primal beast. Which is also where Cosmos resides.
Originally the tier 2 rating before this crt was from being able to destroy pandemonium or Etemenanki which would destroy the dimensional boundary that was initially put in place which separates Crimson Horizon, Sky realm and Astral realm. Which would cause either the destruction of all 3 realms because of Chaos that can EE the 2 realm from Crimson Horizon or merge them.

If Astral Realm is approved as tier 1 then it would scale to the one who created it and the one who can destroy it and others who exist above both realms which is a handful. Lucilius,Sandalphon,Bahamut,Beelzebub, Captain, Shalem, and Cosmos(no profile yet)

Captain on the otherhand aside from directly fighting one of the creator, as singularity can affect both realms with his special destiny(fate manip) that he can use the law of the world to even reach beings even in the Astral Realm by making them a thing in the past basically ending their existence even if they are immortal and his death would cause the collapse of the world

Idk if Akasha would also scale since just like primal beast he would be a 4 dimensional entity but at the same time contains all of history within it and transcends it in a way.

Due to how everyone can fight MC scenario we have a rule regarding scaling from him and was explained in verse that because his nature as a singularity that speeds up evolution his powers varies depending on how strong his enemies and people shouldn't scale from him alone

@Qawsedf234

Thank you for helping out.

What do you think about the above quote?

@Qawsedf234

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Bumping again before FFXI collab. Hopefully nothing wacky happens

 

[Antvasima]

What can we do based on what has been accepted here by our staff so far?

Also, @Qawsedf234 , we would still appreciate your continued help here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If the Low 1-C is based on making a clone of the Sky Realm then that's just a 2-A feat. If the Low 1-C claim is based on scaling to Astral Realm and it being infinitely larger than the Sky Realm then there's something there I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation. It is appreciated.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

If the Low 1-C is based on making a clone of the Sky Realm then that's just a 2-A feat. If the Low 1-C claim is based on scaling to Astral Realm and it being infinitely larger than the Sky Realm then there's something there I guess.

not sure about it being simply a clone. all the game said is it was based on Sky-realm then talking about fundamentals of ecology and the appearance of people.

The feat where the low 1-C claim is the latter with Astral Realm being infinitely larger largely due to how Cosmos and the closed-off dimension that exist lower than Astral Realm views Sky-realm in its entirety and history as mere ripples in the river and Akasha who contains all the information and history of Sky-realm and transcends it is merely a weapon or tools for Astrals who created it

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do based on Qawsedf234's conclusions here?

 

[Delta333]

Is there anything to prove that being infinitely larger here means uncountable instead of countable? If there is none then the thread can be concluded.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Ellis with hyperdimensional perception and seeing 3D is flat and can see T-Axis. Yet ordinary primal beast information or datas are too much for him should be enough to prove that primal beast higher dimensional existence is at least within the same level as the temporal dimension that he can perceive.

Primarchs, a higher and stronger variants of Primal beast who are basically Omnipresent unless manifesting an Avatar are an existence comparable to Six Dragons level of being (journal writing of orologia considered them two sides of the same coin) and said Six Dragons are wedges comparable and equal to The Wedge that gives meaning and define time or gave birth to it that is Orologia who is also omnipresent across all of time.

Akasha as one of the Strongest primal beast. Just like primal beast is considered as higher dimensional existence with the difference of him also being the concept of history and is history itself that he can undo even the existence of Astrals that created it including all primal beast and because he transcends history itself will not be affected by his own paradox by doing so. Yet it does not reach even the Astral Realm.
a material obtained from akasha
a weapon created from Akasha's power
more about akasha
Freesia's goal with akasha
Akasha does not possess history about Lyria and about Astral Realm. Further context from this is that Lyria is actually a vessel of the Astral God to harvest Sky God's powers so because her level of being is above even Speakers who exist above Providence (Things that gives laws and allows things and order to exist, laws of physics, laws of causality without it everything that has been created in the canvass would just collapse even Astral Realm.

Now comes Cosmos and Yuni who Chronicled the entire history of Sky realm up to the end of time and it merely being ripples in the river in their dimension of precipice and because of her powers can also freely remove existence from all of history due to her being an Arbitrator from Astral Realm to keep Sky realm from losing its balance and collapsing

Cant link scan atm but will do as soon as i can since im on phone.

But that summary is what best we can work on base on available story scan in the OP I posted and what's available in the game. After that people can just agree or disagree if it meets the standard to be rated such

 

[Antvasima]

Is there anything to prove that being infinitely larger here means uncountable instead of countable? If there is none then the thread can be concluded.

Ellis with hyperdimensional perception and seeing 3D is flat and can see T-Axis. Yet ordinary primal beast information or datas are too much for him should be enough to prove that primal beast higher dimensional existence is at least within the same level as the temporal dimension that he can perceive.

Primarchs, a higher and stronger variants of Primal beast who are basically Omnipresent unless manifesting an Avatar are an existence comparable to Six Dragons level of being (journal writing of orologia considered them two sides of the same coin) and said Six Dragons are wedges comparable and equal to The Wedge that gives meaning and define time or gave birth to it that is Orologia who is also omnipresent across all of time.

Akasha as one of the Strongest primal beast. Just like primal beast is considered as higher dimensional existence with the difference of him also being the concept of history and is history itself that he can undo even the existence of Astrals that created it including all primal beast and because he transcends history itself will not be affected by his own paradox by doing so. Yet it does not reach even Astral Realm.

Now comes Cosmos and Yuni who Chronicled the entire history of Sky realm up to the end of time and it merely being a ripples in the river in their dimension of precipice and because of her powers can also freely remove existence from all of history due to her being an Arbitrator from Astral Realm to keep Sky realm from losing its balance and collapsing

Cant link scan atm but will do as soon as i can since im on phone.

But that summary is what best we can work on base on available story scan in the OP i posted and whats available in the game. After that people can just agree or disagree if it meets standard to be rated such

@Qawsedf234

 

[Zencha9]

infinitely larger than a 4-D structure
not Low 1-C for some reason

am i missing something?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Ellis with hyperdimensional perception and seeing 3D is flat and can see T-Axis. Yet ordinary primal beast information or datas are too much for him should be enough to prove that primal beast higher dimensional existence is at least within the same level as the temporal dimension that he can perceive.

Primarchs, a higher and stronger variants of Primal beast who are basically Omnipresent unless manifesting an Avatar are an existence comparable to Six Dragons level of being (journal writing of orologia considered them two sides of the same coin) and said Six Dragons are wedges comparable and equal to The Wedge that gives meaning and define time or gave birth to it that is Orologia who is also omnipresent across all of time.

Akasha as one of the Strongest primal beast. Just like primal beast is considered as higher dimensional existence with the difference of him also being the concept of history and is history itself that he can undo even the existence of Astrals that created it including all primal beast and because he transcends history itself will not be affected by his own paradox by doing so. Yet it does not reach even the Astral Realm.
a material obtained from akasha
a weapon created from Akasha's power
more about akasha
Freesia's goal with akasha
Akasha does not possess history about Lyria and about Astral Realm. Further context from this is that Lyria is actually a vessel of the Astral God to harvest Sky God's powers so because her level of being is above even Speakers who exist above Providence (Things that gives laws and allows things and order to exist, laws of physics, laws of causality without it everything that has been created in the canvass would just collapse even Astral Realm.

Now comes Cosmos and Yuni who Chronicled the entire history of Sky realm up to the end of time and it merely being ripples in the river in their dimension of precipice and because of her powers can also freely remove existence from all of history due to her being an Arbitrator from Astral Realm to keep Sky realm from losing its balance and collapsing

Cant link scan atm but will do as soon as i can since im on phone.

But that summary is what best we can work on base on available story scan in the OP I posted and what's available in the game. After that people can just agree or disagree if it meets the standard to be rated such

added scans to my comment above except the Yuni and Cosmos one. from there people can just say if it fits solid rating, likely, possibly or none at all

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do based on Qawsedf234's conclusions here?

Is there anything to prove that being infinitely larger here means uncountable instead of countable? If there is none then the thread can be concluded.

Ellis with hyperdimensional perception and seeing 3D is flat and can see T-Axis. Yet ordinary primal beast information or datas are too much for him should be enough to prove that primal beast higher dimensional existence is at least within the same level as the temporal dimension that he can perceive.

Primarchs, a higher and stronger variants of Primal beast who are basically Omnipresent unless manifesting an Avatar are an existence comparable to Six Dragons level of being (journal writing of orologia considered them two sides of the same coin) and said Six Dragons are wedges comparable and equal to The Wedge that gives meaning and define time or gave birth to it that is Orologia who is also omnipresent across all of time.

Akasha as one of the Strongest primal beast. Just like primal beast is considered as higher dimensional existence with the difference of him also being the concept of history and is history itself that he can undo even the existence of Astrals that created it including all primal beast and because he transcends history itself will not be affected by his own paradox by doing so. Yet it does not reach even the Astral Realm.
a material obtained from akasha
a weapon created from Akasha's power
more about akasha
Freesia's goal with akasha
Akasha does not possess history about Lyria and about Astral Realm. Further context from this is that Lyria is actually a vessel of the Astral God to harvest Sky God's powers so because her level of being is above even Speakers who exist above Providence (Things that gives laws and allows things and order to exist, laws of physics, laws of causality without it everything that has been created in the canvass would just collapse even Astral Realm.

Now comes Cosmos and Yuni who Chronicled the entire history of Sky realm up to the end of time and it merely being ripples in the river in their dimension of precipice and because of her powers can also freely remove existence from all of history due to her being an Arbitrator from Astral Realm to keep Sky realm from losing its balance and collapsing

Cant link scan atm but will do as soon as i can since im on phone.

But that summary is what best we can work on base on available story scan in the OP I posted and what's available in the game. After that people can just agree or disagree if it meets the standard to be rated such

@Qawsedf234

 

[Antvasima]

Your further help would also be appreciated here, @Confluctor .

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ellis with hyperdimensional perception and seeing 3D is flat and can see T-Axis. Yet ordinary primal beast information or datas are too much for him should be enough to prove that primal beast higher dimensional existence is at least within the same level as the temporal dimension that he can perceive.

That's not an indication of higher dimensional existence, just supporting evidence for it. You have 3-Dimensional vision for example, but your mind cannot handle trying to view the entire universe or even something like the Earth all at once due to the scale difference. A notably stronger or more complex 4-D being can still overwhelm his sight, as I went over before.

As before, the only 5-D stuff I can see is the Astral realm regarding the independent Sky Realm stuff. Everything else can just be covered with some form of Tier 2.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

am i missing something?

Regarding this @Qawsedf234

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Are you guys not aware of the thing that's verbatim stated to transcend the concept of dimensions, or are you keeping it for another CRT?

 

[Qawsedf234]

hat's verbatim stated to transcend the concept of dimensions

Transcending the concept of dimensions, despite how absurd my following sentence will sound, is not evidence for a 1-A rating on its own. Mostly because the bulk of stuff with that statement fails to actually follow up on what that entails.

All that's given just sorta tops out at Low 1-C from what I can see.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Transcending the concept of dimensions, despite how absurd my following sentence will sound, is not evidence for a 1-A rating on its own. Mostly because the bulk of stuff with that statement fails to actually follow up on what that entails.

All that's given just sorta tops out at Low 1-C from what I can see.

The tiering system says its 1-A, since the concept of dimensions includes aleph 2 dimensions

 

[Qawsedf234]

The tiering system says its 1-A,

No it does not

Q: What tier is transcending dimensions?​

A: As specified above, a "dimension" is nothing more than a set of values representing a given direction within a system, and a multi-dimensional space can itself be thought of as a multiplication of several "copies" of these sets. For instance, the 3-dimensional space in which we live is often visualized as the set of all 3-tuples of real numbers (Thus, taking its values from the real number line, R), and is thus the result of the iterated multiplication: R x R x R = R³, likewise, 4-dimensional space is the set of all 4-tuples of real numbers, and is thus equal to R x R x R x R = R⁴, and so on and so forth.

Practically speaking, this means that there is no limit for the number of dimensions which a space can have whatsoever, and one can construct spaces whose dimension corresponds to any cardinal number, including the infinite ones mentioned above. It is not even necessary for us to restrict ourselves to values taken from the real numbers, either: It is also possible to define the space of all n-tuples of cardinal numbers (Which takes its values from V, the class of all sets)

As a result, it is not at all feasible to take any statements involving a character existing "beyond dimensions" at face value, as this would lead to extremely inflated ratings largely dependent on No-Limits Fallacies. Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

No it does not

Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard. Characters who stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

transcending the concept of dimensions includes aleph-2 dimensions

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Here's the statement. I don't know who scales to it

 

[Qawsedf234]

transcending the concept of dimensions includes aleph-2 dimensions

Nowhere in your quoted text does it say that. I provided you our official stance on "Transcending Dimensions" statements and its only Low 1-C without more to it.

 

[Delta333]

Low 1-C via transcending concept of dimensions is already generous

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Nowhere in your quoted text does it say that. I provided you our official stance on "Transcending Dimensions" statements and its only Low 1-C without more to it.

Transcending dimensions isn't the same as transcending the concept of dimensions so that's a bad comparison

 

[Qawsedf234]

Transcending dimensions isn't the same as transcending the concept of dimensions

Fundamentally, yes it is. The wording is different but the implications about both are the same and are treated as the same. The statement is just Low 1-C considering the context of the universe its attached to. You'd only get 1-A if it came from a universe with a Low 1-A cosmology or the like with that statement.