(GRACE) Kenshiro VS Cloud Strife

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Both are bloodlusted

Speed is equalized

Kenshiro: 6 (Twellas, Da_Lunge_Fish, AogiriKira, TartaChocholate, Ned_the_outer_god, Mister6ame6)

Cloud Strife:

Incon: 1 (Schnee_One)

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Doesn't Cloud Horribly Stomp him into the dirt?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

unless Cloud can hurt people that are Intangible then no, seeing as Musō Tensei grants Kenshiro Intangibility

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Could've sworn he could hit Intangible People.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Cloud can hurt non-corporeal beings, though Non-Physical Interaction is listed in his abilities

 

[Schnee_One]

unless Cloud can hurt people that are Intangible then no, seeing as Musō Tensei grants Kenshiro Intangibility

Cloud has NPI for hurting ghosts so yes he can.

In other words yes, this is a stomp

 

[Twellas]

Doesn't Muso Tensei specifically require a form of void-related NPI to be interacted with? I'm pretty sure you had to be capable of doing something like "interacting with nothingness" in order to hit a Muso Tensei user, not merely being able to interact with ghosts or that shit

 

[Twellas]

Yes it does, it's also listed on his profile, "If one can attack with nothingness (i.e any void based attack), it can bypass his intangibility with Museo Tensei ", NPI isn't really up to snuff, since it's a non-existent kind of intangibility (He should really just get limited non-existent physiology with Muso Tensei tbh)

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Yes it does, it's also listed on his profile, "If one can attack with nothingness (i.e any void based attack), it can bypass his intangibility with Museo Tensei ", NPI isn't really up to snuff, since it's a non-existent kind of intangibility (He should really just get limited non-existent physiology with Muso Tensei tbh)

So, Kenshiro?

 

[Twellas]

I know next to nothing about Cloud, but given how he doesn't seem to resist ER, Yeah, I'm with Ken

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

From what I can tell so far, here's the score:

Kenshiro: 1

Cloud Strife: 1

 

[Schnee_One]

Given both of them are bloodlusted it’s a toss between cloud using any of his best attacks vs muso tensei so probably incon

 

[Twellas]

Muso Tensei is passive tho, keep that in mind, and it erases on contact

 

[Schnee_One]

Wait it’s passive? I thought Ken had to activate it to be in this state?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Ken does not list Non Existent Physiology nor passive Existence Erasure in his profile though. It merely mentions that Musou Tensei in iself is nothingness and that protects Ken from being erased, though it can bypass its intangibility but not exactly that makes Ken non-existent in itself (which is actually a bit vague to what it translates into, especially without scans contextualizing). If Ken effectively does become Non Existent and gets passive EE it should be revised into his profile.

 

[Twellas]

EE is already on his profile, and it's passive in the sense that it happens when you touch him, he doesn't have to actively use it iirc. And we don't need NEP to be on his profile to say that Cloud's NPI wouldn't be enough to get past Musou Tensei, it's already explained in the Weakness section

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

bump

 

[TartaChocholate]

EE is already on his profile, and it's passive in the sense that it happens when you touch him, he doesn't have to actively use it iirc. And we don't need NEP to be on his profile to say that Cloud's NPI wouldn't be enough to get past Musou Tensei, it's already explained in the Weakness section

Well... my issue here is the profile despite giving a pretty darn good insight on Ken's abilities, doesn't provide the details on how Musou Tensei works exactly or the precise context about it: It simply says that Void based attacks can bypass the intangibility granted by Musou Tensei (and his skills section mention Void attacks can hurt him but not erase him), but doesn't really address if that's the solely thing that can harm Kenshiro or a potential caveat of the technique. I mean, after he mastered Musou Tensei, were all his opponents Void users and such? Or was Ken hurt by other opponents after? The technique being a permanent state or being activated like a transformation of sorts? Is the EE a passive or that's Soryu Tenra? Doesn't help it's one of the parts of the profile without scans, so if you have that would be pretty dope, because I'm pretty lost >_>;

I'm not really arguing Ken's EE, that's pretty clear, mostly how can he apply it. Does he need to hit the opponent with his fist? Can he do it with a thought? Does he fire a ki blast?

Which is kinda goes back to my point, I am not arguing against Ken's EE, that's pretty clear, but if Ken himself becomes nothingness and can only be interacted by people who can use Void attacks or interact with nothingness, that wouldn't be mere Intangibility but straight up Non Existent Physiology, and such an important detail should be added to his profile regardless of this match. That's what I meant.

Also, took a look at the NEP page? Would Ken be a Type 1 or Type 2? Type 2 would be unreachable, but reading a bit through Ken's other matches (particularly against Dio), Type 1 being Physical non-existance apparently is considered "reachable".

Another thing I was wondering, if Musou Tensei grants NEP to Ken would it render him immune to hax as well?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump

 

[Twellas]

Let me preface this by saying that I read the manga something like 6 years ago, so I'm not 100% on most of this but:

I mean, after he mastered Musou Tensei, were all his opponents Void users and such?

Yes, everyone after Raoh could use void based attacks iirc

The technique being a permanent state or being activated like a transformation of sorts?

It's "activated", but passively, kinda like Giorno's GER, if you catch my drift, Ken's body does it on its own when it realizes Ken is in danger, I specifically recall it activating while Ken was unconscious, but he doesn't have it permanently on

Is the EE a passive or that's Soryu Tenra?

I recall Musou Tensei's EE coming from touching Ken without Void-based attacks, but I might be misremembering

Does he need to hit the opponent with his fist? Can he do it with a thought? Does he fire a ki blast?

refer to the previous section, but I have doubts myself tbh

Also, took a look at the NEP page? Would Ken be a Type 1 or Type 2? Type 2 would be unreachable, but reading a bit through Ken's other matches (particularly against Dio), Type 1 being Physical non-existance apparently is considered "reachable".

I guess it would be Type 1

Another thing I was wondering, if Musou Tensei grants NEP to Ken would it render him immune to hax as well?

I guess it depends on how the hax works

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

What makes you think Kenshiro uses intangibility right at the start?

 

[Twellas]

The fact that being against someone thousands of times stronger than you definitely falls under the category of "danger", in which case, Musou Tensei kicks in on its own

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

The fact that being against someone thousands of times stronger than you definitely falls under the category of "danger", in which case, Musou Tensei kicks in on it

Ok. Omaewa mou shindeiru gg then

 

[Schnee_One]

What makes you think Kenshiro uses intangibility right at the start?

He’s bloodlusted, in the OP

 

[Shmooply]

Uhh... Cloud has death manipulation listed on his profile?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Uhh... Cloud has death manipulation listed on his profile?

Won't start with it, so still omaewa mou shindeiru gg.

 

[Schnee_One]

No he would

He’s bloodlusted

again

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Bloodlusted doesn't mean he's starting with his best choice, just that he's willing to kill

 

[Schnee_One]

No, SBA makes you in character but willing to kill.

Bloodlusted means you are doing everything you can to kill your opponent.

“Bloodlust refers to a state where a character is fighting without any inhibitions, and cares about nothing other than defeating the enemy.”

This has been a thing for years now, SBA makes you willing to kill.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

No, SBA makes you in character but willing to kill.

Bloodlusted means you are doing everything you can to kill your opponent.

This has been a thing for years now

And striking somebody is also killing you know

 

[ShivaShakti]

Gonna go with Kenshiro on this one

Though one thing I will say something like Void Manip, or NPI that extends to Nonexistence is required to hit him, but I don't see Nonexistent Physiology listed on his profile for Muso-Tensei?

 

[Schnee_One]

And striking somebody is also killing you know

How is that in any way relevant to my point?

Bloodlust means no inhibitations, SBA makes you willing to kill.

Cloud will start with death

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

How is that in any way relevant to my point?

Bloodlust means no inhibitations, SBA makes you willing to kill.

Cloud will start with death

Bloodlusted is being willing to kill. That's it. And not starting with death manip or some shit ain't an inhibitation, it's just the way a character fights.

 

[Shmooply]

Bloodlusted is being willing to kill.

No.

SBA is that both opponents are willing to incap or kill the other.

Bloodlusted is being willing to use literally anything to kill your opponent.

Bloodlust

Bloodlust refers to a state where a character is fighting without any inhibitions, and cares about nothing other than defeating the enemy. Bloodlusted characters fear nothing, and won't hesitate taking injures if it leads to a higher probability of winning a battle. A bloodlusted character will...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Twellas]

I will say something like Void Manip, or NPI that extends to Nonexistence is required to hit him, but I don't see Nonexistent Physiology listed on his profile for Muso-Tensei?

Yeah, it's just missing, but Musou Tensei requiring Void manip and not merely NPI is listed in the weakness section

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

No.

SBA is that both opponents are willing to incap or kill the other.

Bloodlusted is being willing to use literally anything to kill your opponent.

Bloodlust

Bloodlust refers to a state where a character is fighting without any inhibitions, and cares about nothing other than defeating the enemy. Bloodlusted characters fear nothing, and won't hesitate taking injures if it leads to a higher probability of winning a battle. A bloodlusted character will...

vsbattles.fandom.com

They would use anything, but what implies they will start with it?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Bloodlusted is being willing to kill. That's it. And not starting with death manip or some shit ain't an inhibitation, it's just the way a character fights.

Schnee already explained why this is wrong.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Schnee already explained why this is wrong.

No he didn't. No inhibitations means a character would use even powers he would avoid using in canon, but nothing suggests they would start with it.