[GRACE] (11-8-0) Kiichi Miyazawa vs Heavyweight Yu (The Boxer)

[Robo432343]

I can't think of a good matchup for end of key Kiichi he has too much skill hax stuff going on

 

[Foriaa]

I can't think of a good matchup for end of key Kiichi he has too much skill hax stuff going on

This guy's first key is around Kiichi's, maybe him

Doomguy

The Doomguy, also known as the Doom Marine or Doom Slayer since the 2016 reboot, is the main character of the Sci-fi, Horror, First-Person-Shooter Doom series. He is one of the Earth's toughest and mightiest warriors who single-handedly fights against the armies of Hell. In the ending of Doom...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Zefra3011]

That sounds a bit tenuous. All I'm seeing on his profile is him dashing in a straight line fast enough to blitz someone with high perception speed.

Yu can see everything at a standstill

Jean, who has reached the same perception as Yu, i.e. he can also see at a standstill. With it he can react to Yu's punches, which are faster than what they would normally move and would normally only be readable with Analytical Prediction.

And as you saw, Jean couldn't see Yu's monster stance at all.

EDIT: Yu gets faster as he attacks too

Kiichi has that in base and with Eye In The Sky it goes way higher, this is all without taking into account his precog and ability to spontaneously develop new techniques when pressured.

Yu has Analytical Prediction as well, and keeps, intuitively, developing stuff to face adversities.

 

[Armorchompy]

This guy's first key is around Kiichi's, maybe him

Doomguy

The Doomguy, also known as the Doom Marine or Doom Slayer since the 2016 reboot, is the main character of the Sci-fi, Horror, First-Person-Shooter Doom series. He is one of the Earth's toughest and mightiest warriors who single-handedly fights against the armies of Hell. In the ending of Doom...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"I'm sure to win because my skill is superior! I am the heir of centuries of martial arts knowledge, I canno-

Doomguy:

 

[Foriaa]

Oh there u go, I just removed the https and it worked lmao

 

[Foriaa]

manga/manhwa fighter bro

Why, can't there be game character with skill slop too

 

[Armorchompy]

Yu can see everything at a standstill

"Sometimes"

With it he can react to Yu's punches, which are faster than what they would normally move

No offense but this is just common to all martial arts, even in real life. Like this isn't some verse-specific skill, training makes you punch faster.

and would normally only be readable with Analytical Prediction.

This, too, is just normal real world practice. You need to see your opponent's attacks coming rather than react to them while they're coming out, that's something IRL boxers are trained to do. It doesn't imply "blitzes" in the VSBW sense, or a superhuman degree of precognition.

And as you saw, Jean couldn't see Yu's monster stance at all.

Yu has Analytical Prediction as well, and keeps, intuitively, developing stuff to face adversities.

Sure but is either ability anywhere as good as Kiichi's? Just read through his "Accelerated Development" power in his first key, he's insane. Precog-wise it's a bit closer (though again some of Yu's stuff is just IRL martial arts stuff) but even then he developed the ability to precog mid-fight and used it to low-diff someone who could precog entire fights ahead of time. And he did this while he was 15.

 

[Foriaa]

"Sometimes"

That was a baby Yu, it progresses later as a teen when he can see everything in slow mo

 

[Robo432343]

That was a baby Yu, it progresses later as a teen when he can see everything in slow mo

But even with slow mo he was fighting equally with a holding back Aaron

 

[Zefra3011]

"Sometimes"

Yeah, because at that point he wasn't fully immersed in that "state." It normally happens "sometimes," but eventually, both Jean and Yu kept it. ("all your days in"). It's something that you reach in death situations (for example, wars, like in the scans), and Yu is always there by mindset.

No offense but this is just common to all martial arts, even in real life. Like this isn't some verse-specific skill, training makes you punch faster.

It's more that the more efficient your movement is, the faster it becomes, and Yu, by sheer technique, when he never trained, is accepted to surpass trained fighters. Technique is kind of a multiplier. Yu and Jean take it to the extreme.

This, too, is just normal real world practice. You need to see your opponent's attacks coming rather than react to them while they're coming out, that's something IRL boxers are trained to do. It doesn't imply "blitzes" in the VSBW sense.

I merely wanted to say that they require a degree of AnPr, even if low. I never wanted to imply that all boxers' punches are FTE.

Sure but is either ability anywhere as good as Kiichi's? Just read through his "Accelerated Development" power in his first key, he's insane.

There's Ryu, a genius who, in two weeks, was a finished boxer and would have beaten professionals, with better stats, if it weren't for the fight happening inside a ring.

Yu sees a one-two being performed. (He never went to training)

And after Yu stomped him so badly that he gave Ryu trauma.

I apologize, but I don't seem to find the scan for the last. Tho I can show Yu being considered on another dimension by Jean, the current pinnacle of technique.

Yu's trainer even discourages Yu from actually learn boxing, but prefers him to just feel his intuition. Yu just intuitively knows how to counter various situations, from reading the opponent's strategies to creating new techniques. In fact, Yu only did stamina training.

In short: Yu with minimal information like seeing a one-two stomped geiuses who already have their fair share of AD.

Precog-wise it's a bit closer (though again some of Yu's stuff is just IRL martial arts stuff) but even then he developed the ability to precog mid-fight and used it to low-diff someone who could precog entire fights ahead of time. And he did this while he was 15.

In The Boxer, there's a fair scaling chain of people being unreadable to people who are unreadable to people... I don't think tho there is a single feat like predicting an entire fight ahead of time. But Yu can fairly predict his opponent's strategies too.

There's also Yu Hypermobility, which should be a pain in the ass to read.

• Acrobatics (Hypermobility - Learned Ryu Baeksan's moves by watching him fight, incorporating sharp, unstable bends into his fighting style. This free-flowing, fluid Boxing style allows one to perform acrobatic bends, flips, and twists both while dodging and attacking, imparting a level of freedom that allows attacks to chain into any other blow without losing momentum)

 

[Foriaa]

But even with slow mo he was fighting equally with a holding back Aaron

Cause he just got the most massive speed amp from utilizing technique for the first time. Aaron was stated to be no match for his speed prior to utilizing techniques.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's more that the more efficient your movement is, the faster it becomes, and Yu, by sheer technique, when he never trained, is accepted to surpass trained fighters. Technique is kind of a multiplier. Yu and Jean take it to the extreme.

Right, but that's just speed scaling.

Yu's trainer even discourages Yu from actually learn boxing, but prefers him to just feel his intuition. Yu just intuitively knows how to counter various situations, from reading the opponent's strategies to creating new techniques. In fact, Yu only did stamina training.

In short: Yu with minimal information like seeing a one-two stomped geiuses who already have their fair share of AD.

I'll grant you he's got very good AD. I do think Kiichi's is better though.

In The Boxer, there's a fair scaling chain of people being unreadable to people who are unreadable to people... I don't think tho there is a single feat like predicting an entire fight ahead of time. But Yu can fairly predict his opponent's strategies too.

Scaling chains are in my opinion lesser than superior feats. With Kiichi's precog being so much better, Yu might give him some trouble but he shouldn't be beyond him, especially given how good his adaptation is.

There's also Yu Hypermobility, which should be a pain in the ass to read.

Inhuman movement isn't new to Kiichi. There's even plenty of fighters who use illusion-based techniques or can cause hallucinations.

Something else worth mentioning is that Yu being a boxer is very limiting. The type of techniques he would know, the people he's used to fighting, even the way his body is built would all be optimized for something much narrower in scope than all-out martial art fights. Kiichi is great at striking similarly to Yu but he is also an incredible ground fighter, he can kick, he's got his stupid anime superpowers, he's just got way more versatility than Yu. He can do things to counter Yu's techniques that would never be allowed in a boxing match like getting to the ground, tackling him and so on. It's genuinely just very hard to punch someone with any degree of strength if they're on the ground.

Keep in mind that the second Kiichi lays a hand around Yu he's won the fight. Between the LS difference and his incredible grappling Yu is as good as done.

 

[azontr]

I'll get to addressing all this stuff later (maybe, possibly, idk). You obviously don't need to pause the debate for me ofc but I would ask for a day or two for me to regain myself and argue for Yu.

 

[Zefra3011]

Scaling chains are in my opinion lesser than superior feats. With Kiichi's precog being so much better, Yu might give him some trouble but he shouldn't be beyond him, especially given how good his adaptation is.

Admittedly, I myself do not believe Yu has crazy Analytical Prediction. I'll let others argue this point if they feel like it.

Inhuman movement isn't new to Kiichi. There's even plenty of fighters who use illusion-based techniques or can cause hallucinations.

Did Kiichi predict any of these, possibly while facing them for the first time?

Something else worth mentioning is that Yu being a boxer is very limiting. The type of techniques he would know, the people he's used to fighting, even the way his body is built would all be optimized for something much narrower in scope than all-out martial art fights. Kiichi is great at striking similarly to Yu but he is also an incredible ground fighter, he can kick, he's got his stupid anime superpowers, he's just got way more versatility than Yu. He can do things to counter Yu's techniques that would never be allowed in a boxing match like getting to the ground, tackling him and so on. It's genuinely just very hard to punch someone with any degree of strength if they're on the ground.

I'll grant you he's got very good AD. I do think Kiichi's is better though.

To answer both. I agree his physique is shaped for boxing, yet it also showed unrealistic flexibility, as you saw above. Skill-wise, I disagree with Yu being grounded as a boxer; the lack of knowledge didn't stop him from becoming the greatest boxer in history with a superhuman degree of skill. Yu is shown to adapt to virtually anything involving either precision or the body. He just naturally understands all those things, and takes them to a superhuman degree at first try... Because he's just that talented.

Yu also showed to not being grounded by the conventional boxer's weaknesses, because he never trained to become one. The opponent he faced in these scenes, as you see, does a lot of dirty moves.

 

[azontr]

Buddy.

It's not bad but the organization as a bunch of walls of blue text makes it really difficult to read.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

It's not bad but the organization as a bunch of walls of blue text makes it really difficult to read.

Want me to fix it?

 

[Armorchompy]

Want me to fix it?

I'd prefer if it wasn't edited randomly. If it's just the bullet point stuff I get it and had I made the profile later I might've done that but it's not really a direct improvement in my eyes.

Did Kiichi predict any of these, possibly while facing them for the first time?

No but Kiryu, the guy with the illusion punch thingy, once entered a sort of simulated mind battle with an enemy where they both precog'd how their fight would go the second they met, and they both shared the exact same prediction. Kiichi is much more skillful than either of these people. Either way I think it's fair to say that Kiichi wouldn't immediately precog Yu, he does usually need information to go off of, I'm just showing that unconventional skillsets aren't really a problem.

To answer both. I agree his physique is shaped for boxing, yet it also showed unrealistic flexibility, as you saw above. Skill-wise, I disagree with Yu being grounded as a boxer; the lack of knowledge didn't stop him from becoming the greatest boxer in history with a superhuman degree of skill. Yu is shown to adapt to virtually anything involving either precision or the body. He just naturally understands all those things, and takes them to a superhuman degree at first try... Because he's just that talented.

It's less a question of skill and more of skillset. Boxing is just less useful against someone with these kinds of techniques... although the fact that he's not really trained as one specifically and just happens to be really good at it thanks to raw combat talent does help.

Yu also showed to not being grounded by the conventional boxer's weaknesses, because he never trained to become one. The opponent he faced in these scenes, as you see, does a lot of dirty moves.

I'm not arguing he can't do well in an actual fight, but it's moreso a question of just not having experience against certain kinds of combat technique. Beyond even the supernatural stuff, him not having any showings against low tackles, which are a natural counter to boxing technique, means he will really struggle to deal with this type of thing. I mean, he could kick, but he's likely not as good at that, and punches will fly right over Kiichi's head.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I'd prefer if it wasn't edited randomly. If it's just the bullet point stuff I get it and had I made the profile later I might've done that but it's not really a direct improvement in my eyes.

I was going for a more modernized edit

Like this one made by yours truly :3

 

[Zefra3011]

No but Kiryu, the guy with the illusion punch thingy, once entered a sort of simulated mind battle with an enemy where they both precog'd how their fight would go the second they met, and they both shared the exact same prediction. Kiichi is much more skillful than either of these people. Either way I think it's fair to say that Kiichi wouldn't immediately precog Yu, he does usually need information to go off of, I'm just showing that unconventional skillsets aren't really a problem.

Fair enough.

It's less a question of skill and more of skillset. Boxing is just less useful against someone with these kinds of techniques... although the fact that he's not really trained as one specifically and just happens to be really good at it thanks to raw combat talent does help.

I'm not arguing he can't do well in an actual fight, but it's moreso a question of just not having experience against certain kinds of combat technique. Beyond even the supernatural stuff, him not having any showings against low tackles, which are a natural counter to boxing technique, means he will really struggle to deal with this type of thing. I mean, he could kick, but he's likely not as good at that, and punches will fly right over Kiichi's head.

Talking about defensive... I would argue Yu's perception speed would still be a tough guy to overcome. Kiichi would move in minutes (not literal) from Yu's POV. Even moving close enough might be a problem, and thanks to his hypermobility, even forcing Yu in a situation where he isn't capable of dodging or countering would be a problem. Not saying it's impossible, just extremely hard. Yu can even pull something like this if grabbed or similar, like attacking some weak part with higher Ap and forcing Kiichi to back down.

 

[azontr]

I don't really care if you do.

Anyways, I said I would take a few days to wait before a response but these arguments against Yu are very ignorant so I will take the time to address them for a moment. Starting from the beginning:

at the Eye in the Sky on his profile

The scans on the profile are broken, but just based on the description this isn't comparable to Yu's perception. He doesn't just see things in slow motion, he sees the world at a constant standstill, and his reactions only get sharper by the moment.

His kicks are also blitz-worthy faster than his normal strikes

Yu has the skill to react to "blitz-worthy" attacks. His technical prowess is incomparable to Jean Pierre's, who after getting invariably blitzed by Yu's Monster Stance (Jean has the same standstill perception as Yu plus they were at a decent distance) was able to narrowly predict the attack even if Yu eventually ended up surpassing his prediction again. Not to mention, Yu also gets faster by the moment.

He also has a massively wider breadth of techniques

Unless any of them are supernatural or based in Chi or the like, Yu should be able to instantly adapt to them. His talent isn't limited to boxing but all branches of physical movement; his movements are optimized on basically a cellular level to be able to encapsulate any sport or action, since he can control his muscles, heartbeat, nerves, etcetera. As a Boxer he isn't going to copy any of Kiichi's moves, but showing Yu more techniques simply gives him more room to adapt. Yu immediately became the best Boxer in history after witnessing a single one-two combo without ever training his technique and actively being discouraged from training or mimicking standard Boxing conventions.

wins the fight off a single grapple

Yu just won't get grabbed. He can also use Monster Stance to retreat backward as well as charge forward, and his stance is such a massive amp that somebody with reactions similar to his own couldn't even see him move despite being at a distance, and when he's pushed, he rapidly gets faster than this. He can just do hit and run tactics.

has a way higher level of skill and versatily than Yu

Versatility, sure. But what is your argument for superior skill? He has a wide breadth of moves, an absurd one in fact, more than even someone like Baki, but to someone like Yu who can become absurdly skilled in a single style without even TRYING to, being a jack of all trades isn't exactly gonna help him.

Kiichi sends that right back at him.

Kiichi has to touch Yu to transfer the force and Yu would never let that happen. Not to mention that Yu's Shockwaves are so potent they can instantly kill people so much more durable than him that his normal, full-power attacks barely make them flinch.

That sounds a bit tenuous. All I'm seeing on his profile is him dashing in a straight line fast enough to blitz someone with high perception speed. Kiichi has that in base and with Eye In The Sky it goes way higher, this is all without taking into account his precog and ability to spontaneously develop new techniques when pressured.

Then you must have missed something, because Yu can maintain the speed of Monster Stance and chain it into any attack he wants, and it continuously gets faster because of his superhuman kinetic energy control. Again, it's not just "high perception," guys on this level see the world at basically a constant standstill. And Kiichi developing new techniques in turn just feeds more data into Yu to adapt to.

Sometimes"

You are misinterpreting the scene. The scene is in relation to Yu's talent at a young age blooming, so "sometimes" his heightened perception kicks in when he is being abused by his father.

The analytical prediction stuff Zefra is mentioning is being argued poorly so I will just bring that up myself— yes, a lot of the stuff being mentioned is just normal Boxing stuff, but that's not just it. Yu's prediction already is on an entirely different dimension from some of the stuff mentioned on Kiichi's profile, such as "Imagination," which is basically the same as Siha Lee's stuff which allows him to predict every move an opponent can make from minimal physical data. Jean Pierre takes it a step beyond, because his enhanced senses allow him to view beyond that and see shit like heart beat, blood flow, or even the nervous system.

Now, I will admit that Kiichi's prediction probably works faster than Yu's, as Siha needs to take a bit of time to download information and Jean Pierre's prediction is not infallible. But I think they are both reasonably comparable on this front that a prediction battle between the two would be a fruitless endeavor.

Sure but is either ability anywhere as good as Kiichi's? Just read through his "Accelerated Development" power in his first key, he's insane. Precog-wise it's a bit closer (though again some of Yu's stuff is just IRL martial arts stuff) but even then he developed the ability to precog mid-fight and used it to low-diff someone who could precog entire fights ahead of time. And he did this while he was 15.

Zefra is once again arguing this poorly so I will clarify. Yu has all of his abilities inherently. He never developed them. Never trained or practiced for them. He just gained them. As do all geniuses. The ability to control his body, to predict moves, to copy and develop himself is all stuff that he never had to fight or suffer through to get like Kiichi. Kiichi is a hard worker with a lot of talent— Yu is pure talent. He gets sharper without even needing to apply effort, even beating down opponents who cannot even touch him makes him better. Now, imagine how hard Kiichi will push him.

I'll grant you he's got very good AD. I do think Kiichi's is better though.

How so? All of Kiichi's AD feats involve him needing to fight or train, but Yu develops simply by being. He doesn't need to fight.

Something else worth mentioning is that Yu being a boxer is very limiting. The type of techniques he would know, the people he's used to fighting, even the way his body is built would all be optimized for something much narrower in scope than all-out martial art fights. Kiichi is great at striking similarly to Yu but he is also an incredible ground fighter, he can kick, he's got his stupid anime superpowers, he's just got way more versatility than Yu. He can do things to counter Yu's techniques that would never be allowed in a boxing match like getting to the ground, tackling him and so on. It's genuinely just very hard to punch someone with any degree of strength if they're on the ground.

Keep in mind that the second Kiichi lays a hand around Yu he's won the fight. Between the LS difference and his incredible grappling Yu is as good as done.

Yu is not limited to Boxing, it's just the only style that he happens to know, but the moment he sees any other style he will immediately comprehend it. Kiichi showing his techniques will just continuously feed more data to Yu that he can use to adjust his boxing style. He doesn't NEED experience because the moment he witnesses even a single move of any of these styles, he immediately becomes adept. That's how he mastered Boxing, and the story goes out of its way to clarify that this talent can be applied to any sport or physical movement like basketball, tennis, soccer, etcetera. (Not saying these are comparable to Kiichi's martial arts to clarify but just saying that Yu isn't a boxing merchant, he just only was ever taught Boxing because he's a Boxer).

 

[azontr]

In particular, the scans for analytical prediction across all of Kiichi's keys do not seem so impressive that he can completely invalidate Yu's own skill. In the first key, most of it is just people saying they can read a bunch of moves ahead and a guy saying he considered all the possibilities while meditating or something, but there are no particularly impressive feats of prediction. In the second and third keys, admittedly being able to dodge attacks while unable to see is cool, but Yu is better than a guy who can counter something so fast it's basically invisible to him and would have countered it had Yu not surpassed his expectations. Kiichi is certainly superior to Yu on this front, I will admit, but is it to the extent that the fight is in the bag for him? Not at all.

The most impressive thing is Kiichi being better than guys who can have an imaginary fight the second they meet, which I believe stands out, but beyond the instantaneous nature of the analysis, it does not seem particularly impressive. Even people leagues beneath Yu can perfectly anticipate a fight from start to finish and make basically perfect decisions to control a fight's flow. I feel like we are focusing on the visual nature of the feats but in the end, vividly imagining the outcome doesn't really matter since the outcome will always be the same if you've predicted it. What matters, in the end, is what you're seeing, not how you see it. Ignore that I posted the same scan twice, I didn't realize that what I wanted to note about "start to finish" was in the same album as the one I'd linked until it was too late lol.

 

[Armorchompy]

Talking about defensive... I would argue Yu's perception speed would still be a tough guy to overcome. Kiichi would move in minutes (not literal) from Yu's POV. Even moving close enough might be a problem, and thanks to his hypermobility, even forcing Yu in a situation where he isn't capable of dodging or countering would be a problem. Not saying it's impossible, just extremely hard. Yu can even pull something like this if grabbed or similar, like attacking some weak part with higher Ap and forcing Kiichi to back down.

Relying on Kiichi's pain response is a bad idea, look at his stamina. This is also just... not a counter that usually works IRL, you have to know how to properly escape a grapple, striking your way through it is a terrible way to do so.

The scans on the profile are broken, but just based on the description this isn't comparable to Yu's perception. He doesn't just see things in slow motion, he sees the world at a constant standstill, and his reactions only get sharper by the moment.

The scans are fine, imgur itself is the problem. Try putting them through a 3rd party viewer like this and let me know if it works. Otherwise I can move them to Imgchest.

It allows Kiichi to react to attacks like Son-O's falcon foot which has higher calcs and also just scales way higher than their normal strikes. Kiichi's own perceptions are also incredibly advanced in this key.

Yu has the skill to react to "blitz-worthy" attacks. His technical prowess is incomparable to Jean Pierre's, who after getting invariably blitzed by Yu's Monster Stance (Jean has the same standstill perception as Yu plus they were at a decent distance) was able to narrowly predict the attack even if Yu eventually ended up surpassing his prediction again. Not to mention, Yu also gets faster by the moment.

This is kind of circular, isn't it? He upscales in skill from people who can predict his attacks despite them being capable of blitzing him, even though they couldn't predict them because it blitzed them?

If you want to bring skill upscaling into this Kiichi has a lot of really great fighters he's much better than, probably gets more from that than Yu. I can make a post regarding that.

Unless any of them are supernatural or based in Chi or the like, Yu should be able to instantly adapt to them. His talent isn't limited to boxing but all branches of physical movement; his movements are optimized on basically a cellular level to be able to encapsulate any sport or action, since he can control his muscles, heartbeat, nerves, etcetera. As a Boxer he isn't going to copy any of Kiichi's moves, but showing Yu more techniques simply gives him more room to adapt. Yu immediately became the best Boxer in history after witnessing a single one-two combo without ever training his technique and actively being discouraged from training or mimicking standard Boxing conventions.

Yeah but Kiichi's level of skill is just way higher than anything he's ever faced so claiming he can adapt to them is kind of a NLF.

Versatility, sure. But what is your argument for superior skill? He has a wide breadth of moves, an absurd one in fact, more than even someone like Baki, but to someone like Yu who can become absurdly skilled in a single style without even TRYING to, being a jack of all trades isn't exactly gonna help him.

Adaptation and AD alone don't even come close to bridging that gap. Being capable of performing techniques way more impressive than Yu has ever showcased, feats of skill way better than anything in Yu's own series, no matter how good Yu's adaptation can be it's limited to much lesser showings compared to what Kiichi has easily outdone, and it's a massive NLF to say he can adapt to Kiichi just as easily. It's like saying that because he can draw a stick figure he can draw the Mona Lisa.

Not to mention that Yu's Shockwaves are so potent they can instantly kill people so much more durable than him that his normal, full-power attacks barely make them flinch.

That's just not going to matter, Kiichi can redirect them away from his vitals so they're harmless to him.

Again, it's not just "high perception," guys on this level see the world at basically a constant standstill.

Can I get a scan of him perceiving a physically comparable foe like this, with proof they're comparable statswise? A Hypersonic character viewing things slowly isn't worth much on its own and all the wording I've been shown is pretty vague.

The analytical prediction stuff Zefra is mentioning is being argued poorly so I will just bring that up myself— yes, a lot of the stuff being mentioned is just normal Boxing stuff, but that's not just it. Yu's prediction already is on an entirely different dimension from some of the stuff mentioned on Kiichi's profile, such as "Imagination," which is basically the same as Siha Lee's stuff which allows him to predict every move an opponent can make from minimal physical data. Jean Pierre takes it a step beyond, because his enhanced senses allow him to view beyond that and see shit like heart beat, blood flow, or even the nervous system.

Kiichi could do the latter stuff since he was a small child, it's one of the very basics of Nadashinkage and the basis of most of its pressure points stuff. With no enhanced senses, to boot.

Now, I will admit that Kiichi's prediction probably works faster than Yu's, as Siha needs to take a bit of time to download information and Jean Pierre's prediction is not infallible. But I think they are both reasonably comparable on this front that a prediction battle between the two would be a fruitless endeavor.

A "prediction battle" isn't really what Kiichi needs. All he gets is to counter one stray move right, which should happen quickly even if they're comparable, and he's got a bevy of immediate wincons.

Zefra is once again arguing this poorly so I will clarify. Yu has all of his abilities inherently. He never developed them. Never trained or practiced for them. He just gained them. As do all geniuses. The ability to control his body, to predict moves, to copy and develop himself is all stuff that he never had to fight or suffer through to get like Kiichi. Kiichi is a hard worker with a lot of talent— Yu is pure talent. He gets sharper without even needing to apply effort, even beating down opponents who cannot even touch him makes him better. Now, imagine how hard Kiichi will push him.

This only works if you claim that Yu's talent is greatly superior to Kiichi's, which I don't really believe his true. As it stands you're admitting he starts out as a much worse fighter. I disagree with the claim that he can bridge that gap quickly enough - or that he can bridge it at all.

Most geniuses work really damn hard for their abilities actually, do you think Einstein never picked up a book

How so? All of Kiichi's AD feats involve him needing to fight or train, but Yu develops simply by being. He doesn't need to fight.

"Simply by being" is an extremely vague statement that Kiichi matches, given he too gets stronger every day. But the truth of the matter is that you're harping too much on Yu's "talent" when his actual showings aren't much better than Kiichi's. He's copied techniques that he lacked the biology for, he's copied, improved, redefined and countered his opponents' technique mid-match, he's escaped from impossible grapples the very first time he experienced them and this has permitted him to develop way more outlandish techniques than anything at Yu's disposal while up against threats much greater than Yu has ever fought.

 

[Armorchompy]

The most impressive thing is Kiichi being better than guys who can have an imaginary fight the second they meet, which I believe stands out, but beyond the instantaneous nature of the analysis, it does not seem particularly impressive. Even people leagues beneath Yu can perfectly anticipate a fight from start to finish and make basically perfect decisions to control a fight's flow. I feel like we are focusing on the visual nature of the feats but in the end, vividly imagining the outcome doesn't really matter since the outcome will always be the same if you've predicted it. What matters, in the end, is what you're seeing, not how you see it.

That doesn't really seem like precog to me, he just correctly deduced what would work best against his opponent. And by all means that's good but it's fairly mundane, similar strategies get employed in IRL matches. Being capable of so perfectly envisioning how a fight will go that your prediction and your opponent's prediction (whom you've never met or seen fight and vice versa) coincide perfectly is leaps and bounds more impressive.

 

[Zefra3011]

Relying on Kiichi's pain response is a bad idea, look at his stamina. This is also just... not a counter that usually works IRL, you have to know how to properly escape a grapple, striking your way through it is a terrible way to do so.

Well, if it wasn't for the LS difference, I would argue Yu would intuitively find his way out, as long as it was logically possible.

That said, I feel like Kiichi has no way around Yu's standstill perception speed, where even attacks from blind spots won't work, does he?

 

[Armorchompy]

That said, I feel like Kiichi has no way around Yu's standstill perception speed, where even attacks from blind spots won't work, does he?

I would like to see some more thorough proof that's really what's going on. But in truth being capable of perceiving an opponent's attacks isn't really a sure-fire way of countering them, you still have to outmatch their technique with yours. Again worth mentioning Kiichi has pretty similar stuff.

 

[azontr]

The scans are fine, imgur itself is the problem. Try putting them through a 3rd party viewer like this.

It allows Kiichi to react to attacks like Son-O's falcon foot which has higher calcs and also just scales way higher than their normal strikes.

If it's some stuff about avoiding an attack a morbillion times faster than Yu (get it), then that kinda doesn't work as a skill feat. We've had similar cases of that on wiki being rejected.

This is kind of circular, isn't it? He upscales in skill from people who can predict his attacks despite them being blitz-worthy faster?

If you want to bring skill upscaling into this Kiichi has a lot of really great fighters he's much better than, probably gets more from that than Yu.

The chain of events is this: Yu blitzes Jean once --> Yu tries to do it again --> Jean is able to predict it this time --> Yu goes beyond his prediction and changes the direction of his attack at the last moment.

The upscaling comes from the fact that Yu could supersede Jean's counter via a movement that he didn't predict, and from just statements that say Yu is dimensions above Jean in skill.

Yeah but Kiichi's level of skill is just way higher than anything he's ever faced so claiming he can adapt to them is kind of a NLF.

Can you actually EXPLAIN to me how his level of skill is higher? Mastering complex techniques is not the only metric of skill in the world which has relevance.

do not share your confidence in his ability to avoid a much superior foe's attacks for long.

You haven't proved he's superior.

Adaptation and AD alone don't even come close to bridging that gap. Being capable of performing techniques way more impressive than Yu has ever showcased, feats of skill way better than anything in Yu's own series, no matter how good Yu's adaptation can be it's limited to much lesser showings compared to what Kiichi has easily outdone, and it's a massive NLF to say he can adapt to Kiichi just as easily. It's like saying that because he can draw a stick figure he can draw the Mona Lisa.

Just saying this isn't proving it. I've read Kiichi's profile, and while he has a wider arsenal than Yu, technical ability and being able to perform a move that can explode the opponent's ballsack from two meters away via subsonic vibrations in the medulla amblangada (i am making this up as a joke, you understand what I mean) is not the only metric of skill. In comparison, relentlessly mastering a single discipline instead of just encapsulating everything is a much more impressive showcase of combat acumen imo.

Kiichi could do the latter stuff since he was a small child, it's one of the very basics of Nadashinkage and the basis of most of its pressure points stuff. With no enhanced senses, to boot.

That's not what the scan says, though. All this says is that he can determine an opponent's condition through facial cues, not that Kiichi can predict every move an opponent will make in the entire fight from start to finish. This is ultimately not very impressive, they are just making inferences based on physiological knowledge.

A "prediction battle" isn't really what Kiichi needs. All he gets is to counter one stray move right and he's got a bevy of immediate wincons.

Oh yeah, another good AnPr feat for him is fighting a foe he can't see.

The same can be said for Yu? One blow and simply avoiding Kiichi transferring the force back to him is all he needs to win.

That's just not going to matter, Kiichi can redirect them away from his vitals so they're harmless to him.

THIS is an NLF. If Kiichi has never redirected shockwaves that potent they'll harm him.

Can I get a scan of him perceiving a physically comparable foe like this, with proof they're comparable? A Hypersonic character viewing things slowly isn't worth much on its own.

Speed is equalized and Yu's reactions and perception are higher than his combat speed. Kinda how it works.

This only works if you claim that Yu's talent is greatly superior to Kiichi's, which I don't really believe his true. As it stands you're admitting he starts out as a much worse fighter. I disagree with the claim that he can bridge that gap quickly enough - or that he can bridge it at all.

You are putting words in my mouth? The fact that Kiichi needs to train to become skilled while Yu doesn't is an inherent difference between their talent.

Most geniuses work really damn hard for their abilities actually, do you think Einstein never picked up a book

That's not how it works in The Boxer. A genius is inherently born with all of their skill. They don't train, don't practice, they just are strong. Plus, being good at fighting and being smart are different lol, you need to read to understand physics.

Simply by being" is an extremely vague statement that Kiichi matches, given he too gets stronger every day. But the truth of the matter is that you're harping too much on Yu's "talent" when his actual showings aren't much better than Kiichi's.

You haven't given me any showings from Kiichi that makes me think he is more skilled than Yu besides vaguely saying he has mastered more impressive techniques, but as I said, this doesn't really matter.

He's copied techniques that he lacked the biology for, he's copied, improved and even redefined his opponents' technique mid-match, he's escaped from impossible grapples the very first time he experienced them and this has permitted him to develop way more outlandish techniques than anything at Yu's disposal. He doesn't just copy, he adapts in response, he comes up with the perfect solution that beats the opponent's technique.

Dude, this isn't the outlandish thing you think it is. Yu can instantly change the direction of his attack as well even when he is focusing all of his energy on forward motion so smoothly that his attacks constantly get faster and stronger. Are you seriously trying to tell me that because Kiichi can do the equivalent of a Brazilian kick, he is better than Yu? That is literally just an IRL technique anyone can do. And why would Kiichi's skill in grappling matter when comparing to Yu when Yu is a striker...?? Unless ALL of Kiichi's techniques are some kind of supernaturally impossible physical movements, they'll still be grounded in martial art reality and Yu will be able to adapt to them.

Like, 99% of the stuff on Kiichi's profile that doesn't have anything to do with Chi is just IRL combat techniques with a bit of spice. What techniques am I supposed to look at that are supposed to convince anyone Kiichi is as adept as you say he is?

That doesn't really seem like precog to me, he just correctly deduced what would work best against his opponent. And by all means that's good but it's fairly mundane, similar strategies get employed in IRL matches. Being capable of so perfectly envisioning how a fight will go that your prediction and your opponent's prediction (whom you've never met or seen fight and vice versa) coincide perfectly is leaps and bounds more impressive.

We will have to agree to disagree on the interpretation of that feat then, but even without it, you are not really showing me anything that impressive, you are just saying it is impressive.

 

[Armorchompy]

The upscaling comes from the fact that Yu could supersede Jean's counter via a movement that he didn't predict, and from just statements that say Yu is dimensions above Jean in skill.

So he didn't really blitz him, except he did then blitz him?

Can you actually EXPLAIN to me how his level of skill is higher? Mastering complex techniques is not the only metric of skill in the world which has relevance.

It's one of the most relevant ones. It's the clearest evidence of a character's level of mastery, martial achievement and precision, and directly indicative of their overall combat skill. And Yu is massively, hopelessly outmatched in that.

Just saying this isn't proving it. I've read Kiichi's profile, and while he has a wider arsenal than Yu, technical ability and being able to perform a move that can explode the opponent's ballsack from two meters away via subsonic vibrations in the medulla amblangada (i am making this up as a joke, you understand what I mean) is not the only metric of skill. In comparison, relentlessly mastering a single discipline instead of just encapsulating everything is a much more impressive showcase of combat acumen imo.

You haven't given me any showings from Kiichi that makes me think he is more skilled than Yu besides vaguely saying he has mastered more impressive techniques, but as I said, this doesn't really matter.

You saying it doesn't matter doesn't make it true. Characters in Tough routinely throw out moves that are galaxies beyond anything Yu has ever shown to be capable of handling or fathoming. That is an extremely good indicator of how much more skilled Kiichi is than Yu, and indeed that he has achieved superior "relentless mastery of a single discipline". You have wholly failed to show any advantage similar in scope that Yu holds over Kiichi in skill and the closest thing has been hype about how he hasn't needed to train to achieve what he did achieve, which doesn't change the fact that what he has achieved is much much worse than Kiichi's own feats. You can say they're matched in individual categories like Precog or AD, and maybe even argue Yu has a bit of an advantage in the latter, but that doesn't change the big picture.

Please, in concrete terms, what are you arguing Yu can actually do better than Kiichi?

That's not what the scan says, though. All this says is that he can determine an opponent's condition through facial cues, not that Kiichi can predict every move an opponent will make in the entire fight from start to finish. This is ultimately not very impressive, they are just making inferences based on physiological knowledge.

I'm showing that perceiving an opponent's physical status is something that even relative low tiers in the series can do, which matches Jean Pierre's "heart beat, blood flow" etc stuff. If you'd like a more impressive feat of that variety, here. Kiichi's father notices his opponent's jugular shifting by millimeters from a long distance.

The same can be said for Yu? One blow and simply avoiding Kiichi transferring the force back to him is all he needs to win.

He doesn't need to transfer it to someone else, he can just make attacks/energy slide around him. Even if they're strong enough to tear through his body he can just make them only break the skin on their way out without hitting anything important.

THIS is an NLF. If Kiichi has never redirected shockwaves that potent they'll harm him.

Harm him, sure. But with his stamina if he manages to push them away from his organs they won't deal significant damage.

Speed is equalized and Yu's reactions and perception are higher than his combat speed. Kinda how it works.

The profile doesn't say it's a blitz-worthy amp. I am asking you to actually prove that's true, because all the profile posts as evidence is him having high perception speed and zero proof it lets him statue comparable opponents. The closest thing is literally one single panel of him fighting Jean Pierre and even then he easily ducks under his attack, with zero implication he was actually being matched there.

Dude, this isn't the outlandish thing you think it is. Yu can instantly change the direction of his attack as well even when he is focusing all of his energy on forward motion so smoothly that his attacks constantly get faster and stronger. Are you seriously trying to tell me that because Kiichi can do the equivalent of a Brazilian kick, he is better than Yu?

No? I'm showing that he can mimic attacks he should be physically incapable of copying as evidence of how skillful he is at such things.

And why would Kiichi's skill in grappling matter when comparing to Yu when Yu is a striker...??

Kiichi's adaptation skill is universal. His ability to adapt and counter a hold or a strike is the same.

We will have to agree to disagree on the interpretation of that feat then, but even without it, you are not really showing me anything that impressive, you are just saying it is impressive.

You have a feat of someone applying strategy to defeat an inferior foe and you're saying it's comparable to people who've never met literally watching an entire fight happen down to the most minute nuance (which implies accurately divining everything the other can do and just how well you'd be able to counter it based on nearly nothing, in addition to such incredible accuracy of prediction that the two visions are shared) without making a single movement. This isn't a question of agreeing to disagree, Kiryu's feat is miles better.

 

[Zefra3011]

I would like to see some more thorough proof that's really what's going on.

I can do that.

K outright explains conventional boxers need to build anpr/reflexes to properly dodge attacks, while Yu is his own thing and sees everything in another dimension of time. (I didn't include some scans, just added the relevant ones, chapter 8, just in case)

K, who explains that the state sees bullets as standing still on three different occasions.

From Yu's POV, punches last several panels, in different scenes. (chapters 2 and 12)

If you specifically ask for "standstill," then it's this and the bullets I just sent.

But in truth being capable of perceiving an opponent's attacks isn't really a sure-fire way of countering them, you still have to outmatch their technique with yours.

Yeah, but being more skilled is worthless when you can't get close to the opponent. Like, every minimal movement Kiichi does, or his shadow, or any sound he makes, gets read by Yu instantly, and he can take action accordingly.

• Enhanced Senses (Enhanced Hearing - As a boy, he learned to listen to a person's heartbeat from afar. As an adult, his awareness is far more attuned, allowing him to pick up on the sound of a wire snapping and move accordingly)

Again worth mentioning Kiichi has pretty similar stuff.

Yu's sounds better to me, and he has enough speed amps to overcome others'. Jean's perception should be comparable to K's (bullets thing) and got stomped by Yu's Monster Stance. Yu arguably has faster Perception Speed than both.

 

[Armorchompy]

I can do that.

K outright explains conventional boxers need to build anpr/reflexes to properly dodge attacks, while Yu is his own thing and sees everything in another dimension of time. (I didn't include some scans, just added the relevant ones, chapter 8, just in case)

K, who explains that the state sees bullets as standing still on three different occasions.

From Yu's POV, punches last several panels, in different scenes. (chapters 2 and 12)

If you specifically ask for "standstill," then it's this and the bullets I just sent.

I'll wait to see if Azontr has more to add before responding, since it's the same thing you're both arguing.

Yeah, but being more skilled is worthless when you can't get close to the opponent. Like, every minimal movement Kiichi does, or his shadow, or any sound he makes, gets read by Yu instantly, and he can take action accordingly.

The shadow thing isn't actually impressive at all, the guy punched from above and he saw the shadow moving, you or I could do that, it's just good presence of mind. As for sounds... well they're both supersonic so good luck with that.

That aside, yeah he can take action - so can Kiichi - that doesn't mean he'll actually be able to counter Kiichi's technique, even if he sees it coming.

 

[azontr]

So he didn't really blitz him, except he did then blitz him?

What exactly am I being unclear about? I clearly laid out the sequence of events. Yu blitzes Jean once, Jean is able to predict it the next time and set up a counter in advance even if he can't see the attack, and then Yu changes the direction of his attack in a way Jean didn't predict.

It's one of the most relevant ones. It's the clearest evidence of a character's level of mastery, martial achievement and precision

No, it's not. What technique you are using is often secondary to how you use that technique, and if Kiichi's best feats are just haphazardly throwing out fancy martial arts skills, then there's no contest here. A technique is a move. Skill, as in, the general term skill (since the two terms can be similar) is how you use those techniques to create a fighting style.

Please, in concrete terms, what can Yu actually do better than Kiichi?

Again, you keep saying that they are "galaxies beyond Yu" but that is literally doing the same thing that you are saying i am doing to you. WHAT techniques are you talking about? What am I supposed to see? I can't compare the two if you refuse to actually sit down, get specific instances, and show me these superhuman techniques that are supposedly going to neg Yu in 2.5 seconds. Because just reading the profile, I am not seeing what I am supposed to be impressed by.

I'm showing that perceiving an opponent's physical status is something that even relative low tiers in the series can do, which matches Jean Pierre's "heart beat, blood flow" etc stuff.

What? Looking at someone's eye color to determine they have a ****** up liver is not at all comparable to basically having x-ray vision.

He doesn't need to transfer it to someone else, he can just make attacks/energy slide around him. Even if they're strong enough to tear through his body he can just make them only break the skin on their way out without hitting anything important.

Dude, these are literally two unrelated feats. Kiichi isn't redirecting an internal attack, he is just slipping past a sword, and Yu is far too precise a striker for a simple head slip to ever make him miss his mark.

No? I'm showing that he can mimic attacks he should be physically incapable of copying.

So Kiichi is physically incapable of doing a Brazilian kick? Because that is all that is. The scan doesn't even mention physiology, it just says movement, which just means it requires a certain technique.

Kiichi's adaptation skill is universal. What he can do to combat a hold he can do to combat a strike.

That's not how it works because striking and grappling are completely different. How Kiichi adapts to a hold cannot be applied to how he adapts to a strike, he has to take different countermeasures.

You have a feat of someone applying strategy to defeat an inferior foe and you're saying it's comparable to people who've never met literally watching an entire fight happen down to the most minute nuance (which implies accurately divining everything the opponent can do and just how well you'd be able to counter it, in addition to such incredible accuracy of prediction that the two visions are shared) without making a single movement. This isn't a question of agreeing to disagree, Kiryu's feat is miles better.

Dude, just because the feat has visual cues doesn't make it infinitely more impressive, you are adding buzz words to make it sound better, but visualizing how you can fight an opponent in your head isn't a god-tier skill feat. You're basically telling me that because these guys have a good imagination that they're skill gods. We didn't even see them fight, so how can we possibly know that their predictions are correct, they didn't say anything, didn't go "heh, if i had taken another step, you would have crushed my windpipe." This is basically just glorified power sensing.

 

[azontr]

I'll wait to see if Azontr has more to add before responding, since it's the same thing you're both arguing.

What proof exactly are you looking for? One of Yu's main gimmicks is his enhanced perception speed, which explicitly can see things at a standstill even as a child. I don't see what exactly requires more evidence to confirm.

 

[Zefra3011]

The shadow thing isn't actually impressive at all, the guy punched from above and he saw the shadow moving, you or I could do that, it's just good presence of mind.

The point is, even if Kuiichi itself is out of Yu's POV, the latter can still use the shadow to read him. Not impressive, I agree, still useful.

As for sounds... well they're both supersonic so good luck with that.

I swear I assumed we don't count sound being Mach 1 for these things, there's like Bleach characters who do the same, and they are faster. But well, fair enough, I don't mind.

 

[Armorchompy]

What proof exactly are you looking for? One of Yu's main gimmicks is his enhanced perception speed, which explicitly can see things at a standstill even as a child. I don't see what exactly requires more evidence to confirm.

He's Superhuman, and later on Hypersonic. Being capable of perceiving things at a standstill is evidence that his perception speed is high, but not that it's higher than his combat speed. And all the scans Zefra posted involve him perceiving things that aren't necessarily Hypersonic in speed as slow. What I'm looking for is him reacting like this to something you actually have reason to claim is on par with his combat speed.

 

[azontr]

Nobody said it was on par with his combat speed. Which is why it is higher than his combat speed on the profile. But being able to perceive and react to your opponent as taking several moments to complete even a simple movement in comparison to yourself is an advantage that Kiichi isn't overcoming with vague skill. And to begin with, with Monster Stance Yu can blitz people with his perception and he can maintain that speed and make it faster to chain it into any attack, so.

 

[Armorchompy]

Either way my responses to this debate are probably going to slow down because I think it mainly boils down to a simple disagreement of what matters more in a fight. I believe that technique is indicative of overall combat skill, whereas Azontr views it as basically separate. I do not care to continue to argue that point when I believe it should be obvious to a neutral observer.

No, it's not. What technique you are using is often secondary to how you use that technique, and if Kiichi's best feats are just haphazardly throwing out fancy martial arts skills, then there's no contest here. A technique is a move. Skill, as in, the general term skill (since the two terms can be similar) is how you use those techniques to create a fighting style.

What you are discussing here is battle IQ - which Kiichi does also have but is separate from actual "skill", as in the sheer capacity to perform in combat. Skill is gauged by performance in combat and technique is one of the clearest way to view that.

What? Looking at someone's eye color to determine they have a ****** up liver is not at all comparable to basically having x-ray vision.

Here's a better feat from Kiichi's father, whom he eventually surpasses.

Dude, these are literally two unrelated feats. Kiichi isn't redirecting an internal attack, he is just slipping past a sword, and Yu is far too precise a striker for a simple head slip to ever make him miss his mark.

Did you miss the last panel? The sword bends around his face.

The scan doesn't even mention physiology, it just says movement, which just means it requires a certain technique.

I believe the "rare springing movement that Galhad possesses" is referring to a unique physical ability of his. It's translated wonkily but I think it's trying to say only people capable of replicating that type of physical movement could do it. If you disagree I guess that's fine here though, it is weird wording.

That's not how it works because striking and grappling are completely different. How Kiichi adapts to a hold cannot be applied to how he adapts to a strike, he has to take different countermeasures.

Obviously, but his ability as a "sponge" is universal. Kiichi's instincts lead him to revelations that will permit him to develop new techniques even in the span of a moment. The actual revelation he gets is going to be different accordingly to the situation but the source of it is incredibly versatile.

Dude, just because the feat has visual cues doesn't make it infinitely more impressive, you are adding buzz words to make it sound better, but visualizing how you can fight an opponent in your head isn't a god-tier skill feat. You're basically telling me that because these guys have a good imagination that they're skill gods. We didn't even see them fight, so how can we possibly know that their predictions are correct, they didn't say anything, didn't go "heh, if i had taken another step, you would have crushed my windpipe." This is basically just glorified power sensing.

We were shown the detail with which their precog operates, I am not going to continue entertaining the claim that it's just empty hype.

Nobody said it was on par with his combat speed. Which is why it is higher than his combat speed on the profile.

Well, that's what I'm disagreeing with. You're saying it's higher than his combat speed, I'm saying there's no proof of that. Can you show Yu actually slow-mo perceiving something comparable to him? Because some random guy's punch is just nowhere near as fast as he is to begin with, and such a feat can easily be achieved with perception speed on par with your combat speed.

 

[Zefra3011]

He's Superhuman, and later on Hypersonic. Being capable of perceiving things at a standstill is evidence that his perception speed is high, but not that it's higher than his combat speed. And all the scans Zefra posted involve him perceiving things that aren't necessarily Hypersonic in speed as slow. What I'm looking for is him reacting like this to something you actually have reason to claim is on par with his combat speed.

I mean, unless math is failing me, perceiving bullets as standstill is like MHS/MHS+.

 

[azontr]

If our fundamental ideas of skill are so different then I agree that coming to a conclusion will probably be more trouble than it is worth and that neutral parties should be allowed to come to their own conclusions. On the topic of reactions, however:

Well, that's what I'm disagreeing with. You're saying it's higher than his combat speed, I'm saying there's no proof of that. Can you show Yu actually slow-mo perceiving something comparable to him? Because some random guy's punch is just nowhere near as fast as he is to begin with, and such a feat can easily be achieved with perception speed on par with your combat speed.

Disregarding that Yu can see bullets as frozen like Zefra brought up (I consider this to be an outlier which is why i haven't ever made endeavors to add it to the profile), narratively, the point is that his perception is faster than he can move. If he could punch as fast as he could see the world, then that would go contrary to what the story tells us. I understand where you're coming from on this, but it would not make sense narratively for Yu's heightened perception to be such a pivotal part of his abilities if he was just generally moving that fast. If so, he would basically be blitzing people with every movement he makes, but this is evidently not the case.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

For skill, how about we use these?;

Martial Arts:

• Technique Execution: Quality of one's combat proficiency, the practical application of one's knowledge. Includes how far instincts and reflexes are built, how efficiently one execute techniques, and versatility in one own fighting style.
• Knowledge: Quantity of information one possess, be it fightin styles and martial arts, pre-made plans, possible techniques, anatomy... anything combat related.
• Spatial Precision: One's precision over space, includes aim both close and long range, also removing unnecessary movements while dodging. Possibly even general spatial visualization, as long as combat applicable with one's analytical capabilities.

Analytical:

• Information Analysis: How many accurate information you can understand of your opponents, as quickly as possible, with the least number of hints.
• Analytical Prediction: Using information from Info An and own knowledge to predict outcomes in a fight. Generally possible outcomes, trajectories from stances up to mind reading actions even before they are performed.

Tactical skills:

• Countering: One's ability to overcome, without prior knowledge, advantages the opponent has as quickly as possible
• Planning: One's ability to create strategies and course of actions before a fight even start. Can be for possible usage or against specific opponent.

Accelerated Development:

• Technique Mimicry: One's ability to replicate a technique or a fighting style by merely using visual clues, or in some cases even without.
• Learning ability: One's ability to understand and navigate new martial arts, sports and power system, using both prior knowledge and adaptability.

 

[azontr]

Look man, in the past week alone I have had to argue three Yu matches over hundreds of posts including this one back to back, I'm tired and I'm not doing allat

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Look man, in the past week alone I have had to argue three Yu matches over hundreds of posts including this one back to back, I'm tired and I'm not doing allat

We need to reach a compromise though, both of you disagree with each other's skill definition

I am just trying to give a suggestion, it's pretty straight forward and simple ngl